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post #1 of 162 Old 03-12-2009, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

once again I come to the forum, to ask for help...

I decided to give up on the idea of trying to use the HT setup to play music.. so i want to start building a audio setup...

And I would LOVE to start with a good player, because until I buy the integrated amp and the speakers, i will be able to hook the player in my HT setup...

So I have narrowed down to two choices... SACD or CD, i have enough budget to get either

- Marantz SA-7003 or
- Rotel RCD-1072

What do you guys think? Is it a good idea to invest in a good CD player or in a Good SACD? and the most important.. WHY?

Please help!

Listening is the best experience.
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post #2 of 162 Old 03-12-2009, 11:09 PM
 
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Hi Kate,

Get the Rotel 1072. It's that good. How many SACDs do you have?
If not many, you don't need it (SA-7003). The Rotel is excellent with CDs.
And what are you using right now to play your discs?

______ LORD of the RINGS
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post #3 of 162 Old 03-12-2009, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lordoftherings View Post

Hi Kate,

Get the Rotel 1072. It's that good. How many SACDs do you have?
If not many, you don't need it. The Rotel is excellent with CDs.
And what are you using right now to play your discs?

______ LORD of the RINGS

hi LOTR,

The question is not how many CDs or SACDs I have, nor what I am using to play the discs now...

The question is know what shold I invest my money to?


Listening is the best experience.
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post #4 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 12:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

hi LOTR,

The question is not how many CDs or SACDs I have, nor what I am using to play the discs now...

The question is know what shold I invest my money to?


Now you are not making great sense, do you Kate?
If we invest money in audio, it's to please our ears and brains, feeling emotions by some great music play through some great speakers and components.
And if you don't have the recordings to play on a great player, why buy it in the first place?

If you can explain me your philosophy about this, please I'm all ears.

________
LOTR
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post #5 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 07:07 AM
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Is it a good idea to invest in a good CD player or in a Good SACD?

No. IMO, you'll be wasting your money. Presumably you've already got a perfectly good CD player (aka, DVD player) in your current HT set-up. You don't need another.

When you're ready to put together that audio system, start with speakers, not sources. Your CD player will be the least important component you buy.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #6 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kate* View Post

hi LOTR,

The question is not how many CDs or SACDs I have, nor what I am using to play the discs now...

The question is know what shold I invest my money to?

SACD is a dead format, DVD-A is not far behind (or ahead).

Therefore, don't invest the big bucks in either of them.
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post #7 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 08:17 AM
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I was in similar boat not too long ago.
I was deciding between Marantz 8003 and Cambridge Audio 740c.

I choce CA 740c.... why? Sounds way better in my system over the Marantz even thou its being fed through Marantz SR8002. Everything is so much more clearer now and I love it. I also went with CA cdp fully knowing that soon I will be purchasing that new BR DVD player from OPPO and the Cambridge Audio cdp has excellet DACs built in and I will be able to have SACD, DVD-A and everythig else I want fed through that cdp.
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post #8 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 08:40 AM
 
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kate:
mcnarus and arnyk are both regular poster here and they are giving you real useful information. The ones you have to be careful reading are new names just pop up and start raving about how this or that CDP sounds more natural, wider sound stage, better dynamics and etc. Today's CDPs work so well that the sound quality is audibly identical. What varies is the volume level which is not an issue since it can be controlled by the listener via volume knob / button.
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post #9 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

hi LOTR,

The question is not how many CDs or SACDs I have, nor what I am using to play the discs now...

The question is know what shold I invest my money to?


The question is relevant. Unless you have many SACDs already (or are planning to buy them pretty soon), there's little need for an SACD player. (And I say this as a big fan of SACDs.) Should be an easy question to answer and will advance your considerations.

Kal Rubinson

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #10 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

No. IMO, you'll be wasting your money. Presumably you've already got a perfectly good CD player (aka, DVD player) in your current HT set-up. You don't need another.

When you're ready to put together that audio system, start with speakers, not sources. Your CD player will be the least important component you buy.

Nice tip! Starting with the speakers would be the ideal and most sensible thing to do, but since I already have an HT setup, I thought it wouldnt hurt buying a better source as I could start using it from day 1



Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

SACD is a dead format, DVD-A is not far behind (or ahead).

Therefore, don't invest the big bucks in either of them.

Yes it is a shame that SACD is dead... But there is still nothing out there as widely available as SACD to be a proper substitute.


Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyravr View Post

I was in similar boat not too long ago.
I was deciding between Marantz 8003 and Cambridge Audio 740c.

I choce CA 740c.... why? Sounds way better in my system over the Marantz even thou its being fed through Marantz SR8002. Everything is so much more clearer now and I love it. I also went with CA cdp fully knowing that soon I will be purchasing that new BR DVD player from OPPO and the Cambridge Audio cdp has excellet DACs built in and I will be able to have SACD, DVD-A and everythig else I want fed through that cdp.

The 740c is within the price range I am willing to pay! I will honestly try to listen it a bit more carefully!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The question is relevant. Unless you have many SACDs already (or are planning to buy them pretty soon), there's little need for an SACD player. (And I say this as a big fan of SACDs.) Should be an easy question to answer and will advance your considerations.

Hi Kal, I've been talking to LOTR over MSN, I told him before I have almost the same ammount of SACD and CDs. I have around 40-50 CDs and 35 SACDs with me.. Of course I bought a lot more CDs but most of them are not currently "in use" so I left it at my parents attic, and it is there eating dust!

Listening is the best experience.
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post #11 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 01:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

No. IMO, you'll be wasting your money. Presumably you've already got a perfectly good CD player (aka, DVD player) in your current HT set-up. You don't need another.

When you're ready to put together that audio system, start with speakers, not sources. Your CD player will be the least important component you buy.

Totally agree with you there...[IMG]http://z09a0222gshv273.imageshacknow.info/img/3044************************[/IMG]

My husband bought a high end cd-player when we were first putting together out entertainment area...we have used it a dozen times over the years....mainly we use digital (iPod or HTPC) or our DVD player.
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post #12 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 04:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wiigirl View Post

My husband bought a high end cd-player

So how long did he have to stay in the dog house for it?
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post #13 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 04:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

Nice tip! Starting with the speakers would be the ideal and most sensible thing to do, but since I already have an HT setup, I thought it wouldnt hurt buying a better source as I could start using it from day 1

Unless you already did, the next best thing for you would be to work on room acoustic treatment. Sound absorbers, bass traps and diffusers. Not all those things have to look like studio equipment. Curtains, planters, wall decorations and etc can work.
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post #14 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wiigirl View Post

Totally agree with you there...[IMG]http://z09a0222gshv273.imageshacknow.info/img/3044************************[/IMG]

My husband bought a high end cd-player when we were first putting together out entertainment area...we have used it a dozen times over the years....mainly we use digital (iPod or HTPC) or our DVD player.

Hello wiigirl, somehow a see iPod as a substitute for a walkman, I prefer not use the iPod to listen to music at home, I think they lack the quality for the type of music I like, which is classical, lyrical, soprano, tenors, choir, opera and especially violion.

The HTPC is a good way to concentrate all the songs in one machine, as the files can be "put" in a almost loss-less format, and it has the ability to better organize things. But also HTPC imho is not on par with high quality cd players and sacd players.

Thank you!


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Unless you already did, the next best thing for you would be to work on room acoustic treatment. Sound absorbers, bass traps and diffusers. Not all those things have to look like studio equipment. Curtains, planters, wall decorations and etc can work.

The acoustic treatment is very difficult, due to the price involved, and the type of materials used, I have tried (in vein) to call a professional and discuss with him about acoustic, he price was exorbitant, and the materials used was not really "room friendly", neither it was appealing.

There was ONE especialist what I once called, he showed me a very beautiful project, but the price was even more absurd, so I pretty much decided to give up on the idea of changing the room acoustics just to listen to music!

The whole project was almost the price of a brand new B&W 803S, and I certainly would prefer to trade my 602s3 to a 805 instead of spending in room acoustics!

Anyways, thank you very much for the tip! I really appreciate!

Listening is the best experience.
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post #15 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

The HTPC is a good way to concentrate all the songs in one machine, as the files can be "put" in a almost loss-less format, and it has the ability to better organize things. But also HTPC imho is not on par with high quality cd players and sacd players.

I just gave up using the CD player. I'm using MacMini/iTunes exclusively for listening to all my ripped CDs. To be honest, I cant tell the difference between the regular CD and Appless lossless. I still have a Marantz universal player hooked up to Marantz 8400 for those times when I want to listen to non hybrid SACD or DVD-A. If hirez 24/96 download becomes abundant, it will be even much better. Just my .02
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post #16 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Ysay View Post

To be honest, I cant tell the difference between the regular CD and Appless lossless.

i would hope that you can't...

"lossless" is exactly what it says... not "kinda lossless", or "almost lossless", but "converts to exactly the source it came from"...

kate, there are a couple of people here on avs who make attractive room treatments at a reasonable price... might be worth looking into...

also, as geek points out, stuff like plants, bookshelves with randomly spaced items, etc can also make a nice difference...

no comment on a hard drive (i.e. htpc) being inferior to a disk spinner...

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post #17 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 08:13 PM
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i would hope that you can't...

"lossless" is exactly what it says... not "kinda lossless", or "almost lossless", but "converts to exactly the source it came from"...

Just trying to suggest that HTPC, using decent DAC, can be a legit alternative to CDP.
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post #18 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 08:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

The acoustic treatment is very difficult, due to the price involved, and the type of materials used, I have tried (in vein) to call a professional and discuss with him about acoustic, he price was exorbitant, and the materials used was not really "room friendly", neither it was appealing.

There was ONE especialist what I once called, he showed me a very beautiful project, but the price was even more absurd, so I pretty much decided to give up on the idea of changing the room acoustics just to listen to music!

The whole project was almost the price of a brand new B&W 803S, and I certainly would prefer to trade my 602s3 to a 805 instead of spending in room acoustics!

kate, the room acoustic is a very critical part of sonic quality and not doing it will be like buying a bouquet flowers and not watering it.

They don't have to be expensive. Here's a good source you can order from. Plus, you will find many alternative diffusers for much less at your local Home Depot.
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post #19 of 162 Old 03-13-2009, 09:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

No. IMO, you'll be wasting your money. Presumably you've already got a perfectly good CD player (aka, DVD player) in your current HT set-up. You don't need another.

When you're ready to put together that audio system, start with speakers, not sources. Your CD player will be the least important component you buy.

Yes she does, she have the Denon DVD-2930ci and Denon DVD-1930ci.
So, she have already two excellent Universal players.
And she have a very limited collection of CDs, and even less SACDs.
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post #20 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 01:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ysay View Post

I just gave up using the CD player. I'm using MacMini/iTunes exclusively for listening to all my ripped CDs. To be honest, I cant tell the difference between the regular CD and Appless lossless. I still have a Marantz universal player hooked up to Marantz 8400 for those times when I want to listen to non hybrid SACD or DVD-A. If hirez 24/96 download becomes abundant, it will be even much better. Just my .02

If the HTPC ever gets better than a CD Player it would be lovely, but the idea of loosing quality is not right! Its a contra-sense!

We strive to have better equipments, amps, players, speakers, we even prepare our room, to listen to the best quality possible, not to compressed music!

Maybe .wav would be a great way, but again .wav does not allow us to put the cd covers and all other info, so in a HTPC wavs become a mess!

Will be nice if one day in the future, things get better!


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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

kate, the room acoustic is a very critical part of sonic quality and not doing it will be like buying a bouquet flowers and not watering it.

They don't have to be expensive. Here's a good source you can order from. Plus, you will find many alternative diffusers for much less at your local Home Depot.

Wow, nice! I didnt know they existed!! THank you VERY VERY much!

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Originally Posted by Lordoftherings View Post

Yes she does, she have the Denon DVD-2930ci and Denon DVD-1930ci.
So, she have already two excellent Universal players.
And she have a very limited collecton of CDs, and even less SACDs.

Now now.. Rob? Do you want to know more than me?? I have a few CDs and a few SACDs with me, most of my old cds are with my parents, since I dont use it, I just left it there!

I have around 40-50 CDs and 35 SACDs... Again, all the other CDs are in my parents house, because I no longer listen to then.

Listening is the best experience.
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post #21 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

Nice tip! Starting with the speakers would be the ideal and most sensible thing to do, but since I already have an HT setup, I thought it wouldnt hurt buying a better source as I could start using it from day 1

hold that thought!

Quote:


Yes it is a shame that SACD is dead... But there is still nothing out there as widely available as SACD to be a proper substitute.

Sure there is a proper substitute for the SACD, but it predates it. It's called the CD. The SACD was always far more hype than technical substance.

If you want to continue enjoying your SACDs, either get a universal player or keep on using what you have been using.
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post #22 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 06:54 AM
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If the HTPC ever gets better than a CD Player it would be lovely, but the idea of loosing quality is not right! Its a contra-sense!

Then you need to acquire some more sense. What's on a CD is exactly the same as what's on a hard drive.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #23 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

If the HTPC ever gets better than a CD Player it would be lovely, but the idea of loosing quality is not right! Its a contra-sense!

We strive to have better equipments, amps, players, speakers, we even prepare our room, to listen to the best quality possible, not to compressed music!

Maybe .wav would be a great way, but again .wav does not allow us to put the cd covers and all other info, so in a HTPC wavs become a mess!

Will be nice if one day in the future, things get better!

Kate*, I don't hear any quality loss when I use my MacMini to play lossless audio file. The file is just as good a "WAV" bacause they identical once they are uncompressed by the software that is used. It is just like uncompressing a "ZIP" file to restore the file to its original form.

Just like I mentioned, there are places that are offering hirez downloads already. HDtacks is one of them. They are offering 96/24 files which in theory is superior to the 44/16 CD standard.
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post #24 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Sure there is a proper substitute for the SACD, but it predates it. It's called the CD. The SACD was always far more hype than technical substance.

If you want to continue enjoying your SACDs, either get a universal player or keep on using what you have been using.

Interesting! So you think it is better to buy a proper CD player? Maybe an Azur 740C or the Rotel RCD-1072 itself?

Quote:
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Then you need to acquire some more sense. What's on a CD is exactly the same as what's on a hard drive.

What about the "outputing"(word?) quality? Would I need an external DAC for this or maybe a good sound card?

You know, the good thing about talking is exactly this, I am slowly leaning towards something else other than the CD/SACD helm.

Thanks for opening my mind!

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Kate*, I don't hear any quality loss when I use my MacMini to play lossless audio file. The file is just as good a "WAV" bacause they identical once they are uncompressed by the software that is used. It is just like uncompressing a "ZIP" file to restore the file to its original form.

Just like I mentioned, there are places that are offering hirez downloads already. HDtacks is one of them. They are offering 96/24 files which in theory is superior to the 44/16 CD standard.


WOW interesting, so you believe that maybe a good HTPC is a good substitute for CD Player?

Meaning, instead of spending U$1k in a CD Player or SACD it is best to stick with DVD players and invest in a HTPC?

Thank you!

Listening is the best experience.
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post #25 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

WOW interesting, so you believe that maybe a good HTPC is a good substitute for CD Player?

It is definitely a legit alternative to CD players. And with products like Wadia iTransport that's showing up, iPod might be a candidate also.

Quote:


Meaning, instead of spending U$1k in a CD Player or SACD it is best to stick with DVD players and invest in a HTPC?

It is up for you to decide. I'm just trying to clear up some of what you have said. As far as I know, you already own great players. Listen to the advice being given to you and decide from there.
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post #26 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 08:30 AM
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there's a BUNCH of options vs. spinning a disk... even the much despised ipod... and many of those options allow you to preserve your cover art, plus allow you to organize your music collection in ways you never thought possible...

if you really want a universal player, for less than 200 bucks the oppo 980h will more than do the job...

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post #27 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 08:42 AM
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there's a BUNCH of options vs. spinning a disk... even the much despised ipod... and many of those options allow you to preserve your cover art, plus allow you to organize your music collection in ways you never thought possible...

if you really want a universal player, for less than 200 bucks the oppo 980h will more than do the job...

Even the wireless network players such as squeezebox are are gaining a lot of attention. +1 on the Oppo if she does not have a player already. But I believe she has a couple.
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post #28 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ysay View Post

It is definitely a legit alternative to CD players. And with products like Wadia iTransport that's showing up, iPod might be a candidate also.

It is up for you to decide. I'm just trying to clear up some of what you have said. As far as I know, you already own great players. Listen to the advice being given to you and decide from there.

Well I doubt about iPod, actually I used to have that dock for H/K and the iPod sounds terrible, at least for me!

I would agree on listening to non-compressed, or "loss-less" format, but heavily compressed MP3 is a big NO-NO.

Of course apple has that loss-less format, which sounds pretty good, but I would prefer WAV if I find a way to add the cd covers...

Also the 96/48 flac format seems to be interesting!

The Wadia iTransport also seems to be nice!

I did a lil research and I found a broad number of so called hi-fi & audiophile sound cards, i just wish there was a more in-dpeth study / reviews about those cards... As far as I know Sound Blaster series is far from being an authentic "audiophile" sound card.

Thank you!




Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

there's a BUNCH of options vs. spinning a disk... even the much despised ipod... and many of those options allow you to preserve your cover art, plus allow you to organize your music collection in ways you never thought possible...

if you really want a universal player, for less than 200 bucks the oppo 980h will more than do the job...

I dont need an universal player, I could use my own, it is just that I still have doubts about quality in this universal players, but I will surely try!

I already ordered the necessary cables to do a A/B listening test between the 1930 and my "quasi-broken" SA-8001 (sometimes it doesnt recognize the discs, sometimes i have to try like 4 or 5 times).


Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ysay View Post

Even the wireless network players such as squeezebox are are gaining a lot of attention. +1 on the Oppo if she does not have a player already. But I believe she has a couple.

I find the squeezebox looks somehow amatour, looks more a toy then a hi-fi equipment.

If i had to go Squeezebox way I would buy myself a macmini or a Intel HTPC.

Thank you!

Listening is the best experience.
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post #29 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

Well I doubt about iPod, actually I used to have that dock for H/K and the iPod sounds terrible, at least for me!

I would agree on listening to non-compressed, or "loss-less" format, but heavily compressed MP3 is a big NO-NO.

Of course apple has that loss-less format, which sounds pretty good, but I would prefer WAV if I find a way to add the cd covers...

Also the 96/48 flac format seems to be interesting!

The Wadia iTransport also seems to be nice!

Thank you!

I don't think I ever mentioned MP3. Lossless format is all I talked about. If you prever WAV, it is your choice. For myself, WAV is not better than any of the lossless format that I'm using including Apple lossles. I'm not really sure that I am communicating myself well enough for you to understand that.

You're probably right about H/K ipod dock. It's probably one of those regular dock that uses the iPod DAC. Wadia is supposed to be different. I have not heard it yet but based on what I've read so far, it gets digital signal from the iPod and use its own DAC.
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post #30 of 162 Old 03-14-2009, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kate* View Post

I already ordered the necessary cables to do a A/B listening test between the 1930 and my "quasi-broken" SA-8001 (sometimes it doesnt recognize the discs, sometimes i have to try like 4 or 5 times).

A/B test requires proper equipment and setup. Everything must be set to provide the same level of output otherwise, an equipment with higher gain can easily be mistakenly judged as better.

Quote:
I did a lil research and I found a broad number of so called hi-fi & audiophile sound cards, i just wish there was a more in-dpeth study / reviews about those cards... As far as I know Sound Blaster series is far from being an authentic "audiophile" sound card.

Not a problem with the way I have the MacMini setup. I have it connected using optical cable. I'm not a fan of computer souncard.
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