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post #181 of 423 Old 04-07-2009, 08:59 AM
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Switching back and fourth is not a blind test. Blind test would be not knowing which input you where on and trying to guess which one is digital or analog.

Yeah, i'm serious when i say on my system analog and digital connection is extremely close.
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post #182 of 423 Old 04-07-2009, 11:29 AM
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OK, so it had to do with some setting or other affecting one and not the other. Not unusual but easy to overlook especially with the complexity with settings and digging into menus. Even with that Zues, it's quite possible that there not only be absolute levels differences which can range to barely perceptible but there can be L/R skews. Good job. Have a brew on me. Invite some friends.


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post #183 of 423 Old 04-07-2009, 12:11 PM
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An interesting original question. Had you asked me a few weeks ago i would have said CDP stand alone no contest. However, a week or so ago I tested my Toshiba HD E1, my Sony BDP - 300 against my old Rotel 965BX (regarded as a classic CDP).
They were all connected to my NAD C370 2CH amp via their respective 2CH outputs. I then put the same CD (I have three copies!) in each player and then matched the song to be a perfect transition when inputs switched on the NAD.
To say I was surprised is an understatement. They were all but indistinguishable from each other. I tried at various sound levels, still the same.
I what people will say, but this is the only way to test. If you switch a disc from one player to the other it is to hard to see a difference. I am not saying there is no difference for some just not from what I heard.
Indeed there are blind tests done where people could not tell the difference between high end and low end CD players.
It appears to me the key is good amplification and good speakers.

Entertaining thread this! I cannot believe the winding up that gets given out at times.
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post #184 of 423 Old 04-07-2009, 01:22 PM
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It's an interesting and largely a predictable outcome. At the very least it indicates that under controlled conditions the differences are quite vanishingly small. It also empowers the consumer who can make a more rational purchasing decision. That doesn't mean you have to spend the least possible but it does mean that if you're on a tight budget you can apportion your monies differently which to me means speakers. Now this doesn't mean that there aren't audibly different sounding DAC's. Not at all. For example there are those that belong to a class called NOS or non over sampling. In those the makers futz with the reconstruction filters and sometimes leave them out entirely. The net effect is all that stuff that was supposed to be filtered out gets folded back into the audible region. It becomes enriched sometimes to the point that the original signal(s) is no longer the major player. Some like it. Some would rather stick with just getting the information off the disc without mucking with it.

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post #185 of 423 Old 04-07-2009, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morecambe View Post

It appears to me the key is good amplification and good speakers.

.

Just an FYI, all amps sound the same also.

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post #186 of 423 Old 04-07-2009, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Just an FYI, all amps sound the same also.


troublemaker !!
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post #187 of 423 Old 04-07-2009, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Switching back and fourth is not a blind test. Blind test would be not knowing which input you where on and trying to guess which one is digital or analog.

Correct.

Quote:


Yeah, i'm serious when i say on my system analog and digital connection is extremely close.

So? If that were true, would that really be surprising?
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post #188 of 423 Old 04-07-2009, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Just an FYI, all amps sound the same also.

demonstrating that only a fool or a troll would say *all* amps sound the same.
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post #189 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

So? If that were true, would that really be surprising?



I guess to me it is. I always thought the analog connection was a little warmer sounding vs digital. But after this thread and my own testing on my system the digital connection is actually sounding better to me. The analog connection now seems to have a very slightly higher output and does not seems as clean overall. Still very close but i think i like the digital connection better now. Could be because of the dacs, or the connection, i can't say.
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post #190 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

demonstrating that only a fool or a troll would say *all* amps sound the same.


Well according to the Richard Clark test, as long as the amps are not clipping and the amps are putting out the same watts, and are level matched, nobody can pass his blind test on picking which amp sounds better. I think it comes down to a memory test more than picking which sounds better which is designed for you to fail, but he might be right. I personally think all amps sound different.
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post #191 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Well according to the Richard Clark test, as long as the amps are not clipping and the amps are putting out the same watts, and are level matched, nobody can pass his blind test on picking which amp sounds better. I think it comes down to a memory test more than picking which sounds better which is designed for you to fail, but he might be right. I personally think all amps sound different.

yes. and richard clark is correct.

however, that doesn't equate to "all amps sound the same"...

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post #192 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

however, that doesn't equate to "all amps sound the same"...


What's it equate to then?
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post #193 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

demonstrating that only a fool or a troll would say *all* amps sound the same.

As a new and devote member of the "earth is flat" club it is imperative to point out that in a "three blind mice" test, all amps sound the same.

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post #194 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

What's it equate to then?

re-read your post, it's not difficult to figure out... you posted all the information you need to figure out your question...

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post #195 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

re-read your post, it's not difficult to figure out.


The test is either trying to prove all amps sound the same, OR nobody can pass his blind test. So people will look at the test and think differently. Do all amps sound the same? Or when similar amps and watts-level matching are in place, nobody can pass the blind test and they DO sound the same. So what's a consumer suppose to think about the test? Obviously if you can't pass the test they all sound the same. If you don't think so you can choose the amps and try to pass it.
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post #196 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 09:17 AM
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are you REALLY this dense?

read your post... note the parts about "non clipped, etc."...

if you don't figure it out after reading this information repeatedly, then i'm afraid there's nothing that can explain it to you....

a "valid" test (like richard clark's, for example) is significantly more involved than you perceive it to be, and given the fact that you are struggling wrapping your arms around the "all amps sound the same" conundrum/issue, i don't think it's worth the effort to try and explain it to you...

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post #197 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

and given the fact that you are struggling wrapping your arms around the "all amps sound the same" conundrum/issue, i don't think it's worth the effort to try and explain it to you...


Well i don't think you can explain it. But you contradicted yourself when you said richard clark is right, but it 'doesent' equate to all amps sound the same. Sorry, but that is what the test is suppose to be about. They DO sound the same given the same watts,level matching, and non clipping. And you can't prove they do not sound the same with blind tests.
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post #198 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 09:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Well i don't think you can explain it. But you contradicted yourself when you said richard clark is right, but it 'doesent' equate to all amps sound the same. Sorry, but that is what the test is suppose to be about. They DO sound the same given the same watts,level matching, and non clipping. And you can't prove they do not sound the same with blind tests.

Think of the term "audibly indistinguishable".
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post #199 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Well i don't think you can explain it. But you contradicted yourself when you said richard clark is right, but it 'doesent' equate to all amps sound the same. Sorry, but that is what the test is suppose to be about. They DO sound the same given the same watts,level matching, and non clipping. And you can't prove they do not sound the same with blind tests.

ok...

first, i am FIRMLY in the objectivist camp... i believe in the results of blind testing, ascribe no mystical crap to wire, etc.

second, a yes and a no:
yes, richard clark is correct...
no, i did not contradict myself...

third, a short explanation:
the objectivist position is in line with richard clark's test. the common subjectivist response to this is to mischaracterize the objectivists position as being "all amps sound the same", while conveniently forgetting about the caveats attached to that statement.

fourth, to restate:

all level matched, non-clipped, etc. amps will sound the same. however, from that, one cannot draw the conclusion that "all amps sound the same"...

NOW do you understand? i hope so, because my forehead is fighting a bloody battle with the brick wall...

and, yes, i'm more than capable of explaining the proper methods of testing... if you'd bother to do a bit of research (you won't even have to leave avs, it's all here in many many posts), you would be too...

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post #200 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I guess to me it is. I always thought the analog connection was a little warmer sounding vs digital. But after this thread and my own testing on my system the digital connection is actually sounding better to me. The analog connection now seems to have a very slightly higher output and does not seems as clean overall. Still very close but i think i like the digital connection better now. Could be because of the dacs, or the connection, i can't say.

Could be imaginary, too.
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post #201 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Well according to the Richard Clark test, as long as the amps are not clipping and the amps are putting out the same watts, and are level matched, nobody can pass his blind test on picking which amp sounds better.


Quite so, and my point is that that's not the same as blankly claiming "all amps sound the same". Only a fool or a troll would present that claim unvarnished...typically we find it emanating like a bad smell, from foolish or trollish 'subjectivists' (cough*eljr*cough) seeking to misrepresent or satirize the 'objectivist' view.
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post #202 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Quite so, and my point is that that's not the same as blankly claiming "all amps sound the same". Only a fool or a troll would present that claim unvarnished...typically we find it emanating like a bad smell, from foolish or trollish 'subjectivists' (cough*eljr*cough) seeking to misrepresent or satirize the 'objectivist' view.

So..............what does all this horse crap have to do with the Op's original question ?????
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post #203 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Could be imaginary, too.


Doubt it. This is the difference between direct A/B and blind testing. I don't think nobody will disagree direct A/B, fast switching, is a superior way to test than blind testing.
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post #204 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

all level matched, non-clipped, etc. amps will sound the same. however, from that, one cannot draw the conclusion that "all amps sound the same"...
...


Or can we draw the conclusion they all sound the same 'even' if everything is all level matched, non-clipped etc. Only in blind testing we can say it's true.
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post #205 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
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So..............what does all this horse crap have to do with the Op's original question ?????



Thanks for your contribution. I think we can figure out we have strayed off topic. Thanks for the enlightment.
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post #206 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 08:05 PM
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I don't think nobody will disagree direct A/B, fast switching, is a superior way to test than blind testing.

Assuming your double negative is unintentional, I'll disagree. Any "testing" that isn't blind is next to worthless. A blind fast-switching test is most reliable, contra audiophile myth.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #207 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Doubt it. This is the difference between direct A/B and blind testing. I don't think nobody will disagree direct A/B, fast switching, is a superior way to test than blind testing.

I think I need someone to diagram that last sentence.

If you're saying that sighted A/B testing is superior to blind testing, you've entered a big 'ol world of *wrong*.
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post #208 of 423 Old 04-08-2009, 11:34 PM
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Ohh well you can't convice anybody of anything. Direct A/B switching blows away any blind testing. You eliminate many factors like memory with direct a/b switching. Take for instance the stereo shop that has receivers all hooked up for A/B. I listened to a denon receiver vs a Sony receiver. Switching back and fourth easily showed the sony had much more bass and dynamics, and the denon had terrible bass, but more detail. Now if i did that with blind testing it would be much more difficult. There's always somebody that will refute any claim. I have no problems saying denons suck with bass based on direct a/b switching.
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post #209 of 423 Old 04-09-2009, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Or can we draw the conclusion they all sound the same 'even' if everything is all level matched, non-clipped etc.

no. you can't. i'm sorry that we can't get that through to you. there's a very simple reason why we can't draw that conclusion.

a blind test that shows "level matched, non-clipped, etc. amps" sound the same does not allow you to make the blanket statement of "all amps sound the same"... sorry, but when you drop the constraints of the test, you can't draw any conclusions from it...

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post #210 of 423 Old 04-09-2009, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
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Ohh well you can't convice anybody of anything. Direct A/B switching blows away any blind testing.

wow... just wow...

yup... i'd say "entered a big ol' world of wrong" pretty much sums it up... well... actually "remaining in a big ol' world of wrong" is probably more correct, given the rest of the posts...

this whole discussion is similar to your "i KNOW what an accurate picture looks like even though i've never seen one" routine...

hey, you can believe whatever you want... just be aware that your "beliefs" have no grounding in "fact"... that's NOT to say your "beliefs" are right or wrong... but it is saying that you have no evidence to back them up... so be it...

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