DSD over HDMI - Players - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 227 Old 07-13-2010, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been traveling for a couple of months and so I haven't been able to keep an eye out for new players that will transmit DSD or high-resolution PCM from SACDs over HDMI. The only one I know of is the just-accounced Sony ES Blu-Ray player. I'll add it to the list at the top of this thread when it's listed on Sony's website. Any others?

Matty
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post #122 of 227 Old 07-14-2010, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msilverz View Post

I've been traveling for a couple of months and so I haven't been able to keep an eye out for new players that will transmit DSD or high-resolution PCM from SACDs over HDMI. The only one I know of is the just-accounced Sony ES Blu-Ray player. I'll add it to the list at the top of this thread when it's listed on Sony's website. Any others?

Matty

Ayre DX-5

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post #123 of 227 Old 07-14-2010, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Ayre DX-5

Grazie!

Matty
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post #124 of 227 Old 07-31-2010, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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If I'm reading the manual correctly (p. 49), it looks like Marantz's new universal player, the UD5005, will--unlike it's slightly older and much more expensive cousins, the UD8004 and UD9004--output both DSD and high-resolution PCM.

Can anyone confirm?

Matty
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post #125 of 227 Old 07-31-2010, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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A little more research has revealed that there are two new Marantz universal players, the UD5005 and the UD7005. Along with these are two new Denon universal players, the DBP-1611UD and the DBP-2011UDCI. These Denon and Marantz players look to be clones of each other. The manual for the less expensive Denon is basically identical to the manual for the less expensive Marantz player. All appear to output DSD and high-resolution PCM over HDMI, and so I'll be adding them to the list, unless others have more information.

Matty
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post #126 of 227 Old 11-15-2010, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I've added a few new players: the new Yamaha universal player, the new Oppo, and the Denon anniversary model. Any others out there that I've missed?

Matty
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post #127 of 227 Old 11-16-2010, 03:08 AM
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The Sony BDP-S*70 players will transmit DSD over HDMI.It is a selectable option in the menus.My Yamaha receiver indicates "DSD" during playback.
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post #128 of 227 Old 11-16-2010, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradman View Post
The Sony BDP-S*70 players will transmit DSD over HDMI.It is a selectable option in the menus.My Yamaha receiver indicates "DSD" during playback.
Three Sony BDP-S*70 players are already included in the list at the beginning of this thread.

Matty
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post #129 of 227 Old 11-16-2010, 08:30 AM
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Matty-

It would be of interest to me to get another piece of information: What is the output resolution of these players when sending PCM from an SACD? I can contribute some numbers towards that but a wider collection would be great.

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post #130 of 227 Old 12-05-2010, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Matty-

It would be of interest to me to get another piece of information: What is the output resolution of these players when sending PCM from an SACD? I can contribute some numbers towards that but a wider collection would be great.

I would be interested in that too, Kal. I don't know how much help I'll be able to be, though. Most of the research that produced this thread involves reading user manuals and unit specifications. And unfortunately, user manuals rarely specify the resolution of the PCM output from SACDs. If they say anything, it's usually just that it's "high resolution" (and so presumably higher than redbook CD resolution).

I'll see what I can find, though!

Matty
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post #131 of 227 Old 12-05-2010, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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For instance, the user manual for the new Marantz UD5005 does not specify the resolution of the PCM that is output from SACDs. It does say this:

"Contents of DTS-HD MA 5.1ch/192 kHz are output as 5.1ch/96 kHz [PCM, when Bitstream is set to Off]."

Can we safely infer from this that the UD5005 cannot output multichannel PCM at a resolution higher than 96 khz, and that therefore SACDs are output at that resolution as well? I have no idea.

At the back of the manual, there is this list of specifications:

Audio output characteristics
Frequency response


BD (Linear PCM)
2 Hz - 22 kHz (48 kHz sampling)
2 Hz - 44 kHz (96 kHz sampling)
2 Hz - 88 kHz (192 kHz sampling)

DVD (Linear PCM)
2 Hz - 22 kHz (48 kHz sampling)
2 Hz - 44 kHz (96 kHz sampling)
2 Hz - 88 kHz (192 kHz sampling)

Super Audio CD
2 Hz - 40 kHz

Can you help me interpret this?

Matty
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post #132 of 227 Old 12-06-2010, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msilverz View Post

For instance, the user manual for the new Marantz UD5005 does not specify the resolution of the PCM that is output from SACDs. It does say this:

"Contents of DTS-HD MA 5.1ch/192 kHz are output as 5.1ch/96 kHz [PCM, when Bitstream is set to Off]."

Can we safely infer from this that the UD5005 cannot output multichannel PCM at a resolution higher than 96 khz, and that therefore SACDs are output at that resolution as well? I have no idea.

At the back of the manual, there is this list of specifications:

Audio output characteristics
Frequency response


BD (Linear PCM)
2 Hz - 22 kHz (48 kHz sampling)
2 Hz - 44 kHz (96 kHz sampling)
2 Hz - 88 kHz (192 kHz sampling)

DVD (Linear PCM)
2 Hz - 22 kHz (48 kHz sampling)
2 Hz - 44 kHz (96 kHz sampling)
2 Hz - 88 kHz (192 kHz sampling)

Super Audio CD
2 Hz - 40 kHz

Can you help me interpret this?

Matty

Nope. The information is not there to be mined.

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post #133 of 227 Old 12-06-2010, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Kal, am I right in thinking that although the Oppo converts DSD to PCM at 88 khz, it can actually upsample that to 192 khz PCM before passing it over HDMI? If so, how would you recommend I list the Oppo on the first page?

Matty
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post #134 of 227 Old 12-06-2010, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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The manual for the Pioneer DV-58AV says:

"The HDMI connection is compatible with 2 channel linear PCM signals (44.1 kHz to 192 kHz, 16 bit/20 bit/24 bit), and Dolby Digital, DTS, MPEG audio bitstream, multi channel DSD, and multi channel linear PCM signals, (5.1 channel signals up to 96 kHz, 16 bit/20 bit/24 bit)."

From this is seems safe to assume that multichannel PCM from SACDs is output at 88.2 kHz. Do you agree?

I've started added the bitrate details to the first post. Any help you can provide would be great!

Matty
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post #135 of 227 Old 12-07-2010, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msilverz
Kal, am I right in thinking that although the Oppo converts DSD to PCM at 88 khz, it can actually upsample that to 192 khz PCM before passing it over HDMI? If so, how would you recommend I list the Oppo on the first page?

Matty
There is no player that upsamles from 88 to 192. Actually it only makes sense to convert DSD to either 88 or 176 PCM. Any other sample rate significantly increass required computing power. 176 does not have much of advantage over 88, since bandwidth over 45kHz is not very usable due to significant increase of noise floor in DSD encoded signal after 50kHz mark.
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post #136 of 227 Old 12-07-2010, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msilverz View Post
Kal, am I right in thinking that although the Oppo converts DSD to PCM at 88 khz, it can actually upsample that to 192 khz PCM before passing it over HDMI? If so, how would you recommend I list the Oppo on the first page?
It neither upsamples nor outputs 176.4 or 192 PCM from SACD via HDMI. 88.2 only.

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post #137 of 227 Old 12-07-2010, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

It neither upsamples nor outputs 176.4 or 192 PCM from SACD via HDMI. 88.2 only.

Got it. Does the same go for all of the players built on the Oppo base (Ayre, Cambridge, Lexicon)?

Matty
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post #138 of 227 Old 12-08-2010, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msilverz View Post

got it. Does the same go for all of the players built on the oppo base (ayre, cambridge, lexicon)?

Matty

afaik.

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post #139 of 227 Old 12-08-2010, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Someone on the Sony BDP-S570 thread reported that the Sony outputs 176.4 kHZ PCM to his Yamaha receiver. I'm going to assume that the other S_70 series players do as well.

Matty
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post #140 of 227 Old 12-08-2010, 01:03 PM
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If you do, you should somehow indicate the difference between an eye-witness report and your inference in the chart.

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post #141 of 227 Old 12-12-2010, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I've added the new Sony ES Blu-Ray player to the list, which can also (I have confirmed) send PCM at 176.4 kHz.

Matty
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post #142 of 227 Old 12-22-2010, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msilverz View Post

I've added the new Sony ES Blu-Ray player to the list, which can also (I have confirmed) send PCM at 176.4 kHz.

Matty

How about this one?

http://us.marantz.com/Products/3227.asp
Herb
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post #143 of 227 Old 12-22-2010, 02:25 AM - Thread Starter
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How about this one?

http://us.marantz.com/Products/3227.asp
Herb

Thanks! I guess the UD7005 (on my list) was canceled. I'll make the change.

Matty
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post #144 of 227 Old 01-04-2011, 10:14 AM
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hello

I have been reading this post very closely as it matters a lot to me

So what about the denon olders series 1940/2910/2930 that got raved reviews ?

correction: I see now in
http://groups.google.com/group/surro...digital-output

that 1940 and others do not have dsd over hdmi. This is becoming a hard choice of a player that can give you the choice of both dsd over hdmi or analog 5.1 out. I guess I will be looking for a chepie pioneer dv-610 to replace my dv-696..


rgds
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post #145 of 227 Old 01-10-2011, 08:43 AM
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FYI- My Sony 5400ES outputs SACD as 176.4 PCM over HDMI to my Marantz avr7005 pre/pro, since the Marantz does not decode DSD. This is probably for the best, since the 5400 is an amazingly good sounding machine. I think it will output DSD if it senses a pre/pro that can take it.

I can also tell you first hand that the Sony S-570 can output dsd directly and it TRIES to output 176.4 pcm to my Marantz, but it keeps dropping in and out. I'm not sure which unit is at fault, but since the Sony ES machine does it fine...
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post #146 of 227 Old 01-18-2011, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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McIntosh has a universal player (MVP881) that presumably sends both DSD and PCM over HDMI from SACDs. I couldn't download the manual, though, and so until I get some sort of confirmation, I'm going to leave it off the list.

Matty
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post #147 of 227 Old 01-18-2011, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msilverz View Post

Someone on the Sony BDP-S570 thread reported that the Sony outputs 176.4 kHZ PCM to his Yamaha receiver. I'm going to assume that the other S_70 series players do as well.

My Yamaha receiver is reporting PCM 176.4 kHZ from my Sony BDP-S370 with SACD.
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post #148 of 227 Old 01-25-2011, 07:47 AM
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and in fact mad on this issue!

Let see if you guys (and dear Kal from whom´s articles I have been feeding my brain with) can help me make sense of this situation.

Based on what I read here I went chasing a pioneer dv-58 (it´s the european dv-lx50) and grabbed one. Afterwards, and of course after reading a few brand´s receivers manuals I got a good bargain on a pioneer elite vsx-33 (mine is of course the european vsx-2020), mostly based on its manuals decoding chart

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...020_matrix.jpg

so to be able to have dsd to analog direct decoding. But! whatever I do I can only achieve the status dsd->pcm, 88.2Khz from my hybrid sacd´s! what a bummer!

You will notice on the vsx-2020 chart, down end, if the surround backs are not connected straight decoding can be achieved. Well, because I am bi-amplifying the front speakers, and because to bi-amplify on the vsx the surround backs have to output to the front speakers medium range (the regular vsx outs go to the front tweeters) my surrounds are in fact connected! but of course on the vsx setup the system is defined as "bi-amplified"

Still wasn´t able to disconnect the bi-amplify/medium drivers/surround back to make the final test but somehow I doubt this will be the case!

on the avforums a nice guy came up with this, and I quote

"
IMHO the old VSX AX-4AVi converts the DSD to analog directly without conversion DSD->PCM. But only using the fantastic PQLS jitter free i-LINK connexion.
When it uses the HDMI CONNEXION, I think that all Pioneer AVs convert DSD signal into PCM (88,2 or 176,4 KHz).
If you wish the "best possible conversion from DSD to analog" you need to use a pair "old" SACD-AVR connected by i-link. Unfortunately, Pioneer not use this now
"

Now we all know the dv-58 does not have pqls mode.. and who cares in fact pioneer seem to have some of the lowest jitter of all on hdmi, take a look at

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...t=59207&page=2

but the vsx does get dsd from the dv-58 because at least "dsd->pcm" lights up.

What do you make of all this? What am I doing wrong ? or

- is this a case of a firmware bug on the pioneer vsx-2020 ? or
- is this a case of misleading user manual info in which case I was fooled and wrongly bought the vsx?

thks in advance
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post #149 of 227 Old 01-25-2011, 08:05 AM
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Ninogui,
I think your assessment that the use of the surround amps (regardless that they are not being used as surrounds) is likely the culprit.

HOWEVER, and please don't take this the wrong way....why do you feel that the level of equipment being used here (especially the receiver's analog stage) would allow for any real determination between pure DSD and 24/88.2k PCM? I think you are chasing a ghost. I love DSD as much as the next guy (I run a hirez music forum and am constantly being called a schill for SACD, etc), but the subtle differences are most likely negated when passed through the average receiver's opamp-based analog stage. Additionally, any pure DSD processing removes your ability to bass manage, etc. My $.02 I think you'll like the 24/88 sound, frankly. The variables are much more in the recording quality (i.e some SACD's suck, some redbooks suck, some DVD-A's suck, some hirez downloads suck).

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post #150 of 227 Old 01-25-2011, 09:49 AM
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hello Ted

Thank you for the quick reply,

I really understand what you mean. This reminds me of the cables cobra fat going on and on for marketing hype, where a lot of companies wish us to believe that a 1 meter $1000 audio cable will get us light years ahead in audio listening experience than a simple and good $100 audio cable. Maybe the influence is 0,0003%... I just don´t buy into that nonsense, but a lot of good folks do!

Also have a couple of sacd like police´s synchronicity and ghost in the machine that are simply.. crap! but have a dozen classical of london symphony orchestra from centurion music that are simply..amazing! as well as a few chick corea´s and so forth

My assessments just come from a simple fact, or should I say component, the main one (my ears) regarding my previous setup: a sacd pioneer dv-696 (worth $70) paired with a rather old pioneer vsx-d510 (worth $100) connected on 5.1 analog outputs and it sounded more lively and extended than my present setup (of course I have no access to complex audio evaluation machinery)

Maybe it´s me trying to recreate the perceptive/personal audio experience I had before with a more up to date and expensive setup, not having access anymore to analog outputs.. (yellow grin laugh here)

Anyway I should go and test what we both think the culprit is. If it works I will try to evaluate which one is better for me: the direct dsd decoding versus bi-amped front speakers. If it does not work I will blame pioneer (rewind: the decoding matrix posted above) for wrong information, and mind me I am a big fan of pioneer!
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