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post #91 of 111 Old 08-21-2009, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

It probably has more to do with output level difference from amp to amp than anything else. .

With all due respect, given your statemant made, I doubt that you know very much about Logans and Electrostaics in general.
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post #92 of 111 Old 08-21-2009, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

With all due respect, given your statemant made, I doubt that you know very much about Logans and Electrostaics in general.

I always find it funny when someone says "With all due respect", and then proceeds to blatantly disrespect the other person in the following statement.
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post #93 of 111 Old 08-21-2009, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

With all due respect, given your statemant made, I doubt that you know very much about Logans and Electrostaics in general.

Lets see, ML Aerius I and SL3 mentioned by andrewdoan, oh, you mean the impedance dip at 15 KHz and up where there is very little musical notes? Add to that, the listener whose hearing is no longer that of 18 year old's (andrewdoan in this case who claims to be an old man) and keeps mentioning the amplifier that is designed to perform stable down to 2 ohm load.

Please enlighten me if I missed something that can support his claim on amps sounding different for reason other than possible mismatched volume level.
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post #94 of 111 Old 08-22-2009, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post

I always find it funny when someone says "With all due respect", and then proceeds to blatantly disrespect the other person in the following statement.

glad to have made you laugh so easily !!
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post #95 of 111 Old 08-22-2009, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Lets see, ML Aerius I and SL3 mentioned by andrewdoan, oh, you mean the impedance dip at 15 KHz and up where there is very little musical notes?

while true there is never the less music there and if not handled correctly audible distorted artifacts can be heard even though it is well up in freq.



Quote:


Please enlighten me if I missed something that can support his claim on amps sounding different for reason other than possible mismatched volume level.


FYI, it goes beyond the inverse imp dip you mention above for in the case of Logans the ESL panels behaves if you will like a lage capacitor thus presenting challenges 'back to the amplifier' with regard to stability. These areas are audible when level matched, the etching, smearing of sound, call it what you want, but the ESL panel is revealing of these things and unlike the newer hybrid designs from ML the SL3's bass driver has to be powered throughout all this as well.
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post #96 of 111 Old 08-22-2009, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Lets see, ML Aerius I and SL3 mentioned by andrewdoan, oh, you mean the impedance dip at 15 KHz and up where there is very little musical notes? Add to that, the listener whose hearing is no longer that of 18 year old's (andrewdoan in this case who claims to be an old man) and keeps mentioning the amplifier that is designed to perform stable down to 2 ohm load.

Please enlighten me if I missed something that can support his claim on amps sounding different for reason other than possible mismatched volume level.

Why do suppose that one of the conditions of Richard Clark's so-called amp challenge is that an equalizer will be used if an amplifier exhibits nonlinear frequency response when connected to the speakers being used?

Martin Logans present a particularly challenging impedence curve. Aerius' curve may be found here: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/810/ , figure 7.
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post #97 of 111 Old 08-22-2009, 08:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Why do suppose that one of the conditions of Richard Clark's so-called amp challenge is that an equalizer will be used if an amplifier exhibits nonlinear frequency response when connected to the speakers being used?

Martin Logans present a particularly challenging impedence curve. Aerius' curve may be found here: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/810/ , figure 7.

To support a discussion on transistor amp comparisons, posting a link showing comparison between transistor amp and tube amp helps? In that case, how did the figure 1 and 4 look between transistor amps?
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post #98 of 111 Old 08-22-2009, 08:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

while true there is never the less music there and if not handled correctly audible distorted artifacts can be heard even though it is well up in freq.

FYI, it goes beyond the inverse imp dip you mention above for in the case of Logans the ESL panels behaves if you will like a lage capacitor thus presenting challenges 'back to the amplifier' with regard to stability. These areas are audible when level matched, the etching, smearing of sound, call it what you want, but the ESL panel is revealing of these things and unlike the newer hybrid designs from ML the SL3's bass driver has to be powered throughout all this as well.

At what volume level will that be? Is it something like what andrewdoan described below?
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Originally Posted by andrewdoan View Post

My old entry level Krell kav250A can drive the Martin Logan SL3 to an insane concert level and still not clipping. Most other 1k amp not be able to do the same or may be but will produce a collapse in soundstage and clipping.



Oh, and did you see the link RUR posted?
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post #99 of 111 Old 08-22-2009, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

To support a discussion on transistor amp comparisons, posting a link showing comparison between transistor amp and tube amp helps? In that case, how did the figure 1 and 4 look between transistor amps?

Provided only for the impedence curve, but I see now that all of Andrew's amps were SS. Dave (Twitch54) is quite correct in that ML's present a capacitative load and require amps which can supply enough current at reference SPL's to avoid clipping. I've no idea if all of the amps Andrew cited meet that criteria, or if they meet that criteria at the "insane" levels Andrew seems to prefer.
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post #100 of 111 Old 08-22-2009, 06:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Dave (Twitch54) is quite correct in that ML's present a capacitative load and require amps which can supply enough current at reference SPL's to avoid clipping. I've no idea if all of the amps Andrew cited meet that criteria, or if they meet that criteria at the "insane" levels Andrew seems to prefer.

ML Aerius rated at 89 dB efficiency, it can produce 107 db at 64 watts output from amp per speaker. Having 2 speakers (stereo) will reach 110 db which is enough for just about any home use. Most people don't even turn up the volume that high at home. He didn't mention the model of Rotel, Adcom, Parasound amps but from what I recall, most of their amps are over 64 watts rated. Carver TFM25 is rated per channel 225 W at 8 Ohm, 350 W at 4 Ohm, 750 W at 2 Ohm dynamic power. TFM35 is 250W, 380W and 560W in those impedance. No problem driving andrewdoan's speakers.
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post #101 of 111 Old 08-23-2009, 07:31 AM
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In this case, it's not about watts required @ reference levels, but about current required (larger power supply and output devices).

Moving on, now.....
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post #102 of 111 Old 08-23-2009, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

Wouldnt be up to you to "proove" that there is a difference between or as you claim with these 2 statements below.

"I can differentiate the 3 entry level Kimber Kable ICs: PBJ, Hero and lastly the silver streak."

"This is just a hobby and If I am wrong, I will learn to be right but if I cannot be proving that I was wrong"


The burden of poof is on YOU not on us. Sorry....That is the way it works here. And the whole "enemies" and "hostility" thing is a moot point. YOU are on here making claims with absolutely no way to substantiate them and it is anyone's right here to question not only your methods but your credibility.

How have you conducted your comparisons?

Let's meet somewhere some time in October 2009 at your area. All my expense(s) airfare, hotel, foods, transportation and most importance factor is my time... are on me if I fail to differentiate the Kimber PBJ from the Kimber Hero and the Kimber Silver streak. Please gather up the Krell 400 XI and the Bryston BP26 and the 4 Bsst and the speakers will be a small bookshelf Paradigm S2 v2 at the hotel place. I will bring my ICs and my Cds. If I can differentiate which is which, I eat my own expenses and bring the Brystons and the Paradigm home with me. If I cannot, I will eat my own expense and admit to this forum that I am a FRAUD. Since you have called me a FRAUD amd I would like to prove to you that I am a FRAUD or not. You can keep your own cable(s) since the typical guys over this forum believe that mid-end and hi-end ICs stuff are just snake-oil and we just moving the electron so there should be NO AUDIBLE defference between a cloth hanger and the IC I used. BTW, no measurement or room acoustic treatment needed. I am will be off this forum for a while to take care some personal business. You know kids are moving to college in the a week or so and have 2 sons that is my priority but i will check your acceptance once in a while. Regards, Andrew Doan.
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post #103 of 111 Old 08-23-2009, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

ML Aerius rated at 89 dB efficiency, it can produce 107 db at 64 watts output from amp per speaker. Having 2 speakers (stereo) will reach 110 db which is enough for just about any home use. Most people don't even turn up the volume that high at home. He didn't mention the model of Rotel, Adcom, Parasound amps but from what I recall, most of their amps are over 64 watts rated. Carver TFM25 is rated per channel 225 W at 8 Ohm, 350 W at 4 Ohm, 750 W at 2 Ohm dynamic power. TFM35 is 250W, 380W and 560W in those impedance. No problem driving andrewdoan's speakers.

Somehow my post response to you disappeared in a black hole. So, here I am re-type it gain. First thing first, please re-read all my posts about the SL# and the Apogee Duetta driving by the Carver TFM25 and the entry level Krell Kav 250. Also please re-read my post about the fact that I owned the Aerius I and the SL3 ( BTW, I also owned the cinema something then upgraded to the Logos and upgrade again to the new newer model right after the Cinema (?). I do not recall what year but that's irrelevant since ML should have my records or some of it. Yes, I stated that I have lived with the Areius I and the Sl3 for abt 10 years and I loved them so much BUT I never claimed that I compared the Carver TFM25 with the enrty Krell KAV 250 drving the Aerius I . Reading and comprehension are indded two different things but still keep your spec since any mediocre AVR like Pioneer Elite or Onkyo will be able to drive the SL3 ( not so sure about the Apogee Duetta) but not as the way the Krell Kav driving it and the sound quality between them are not subtile. Since most of you guys are uptodate with all the testing equipments and all intellectual about" amp is just an amp that functions is no more than to amplifier the signal" but I would not recommend for an oldman with enphysema to run the marathon either. So much for spec and talks, let met some where like Vegas in October and you guys provide the Apogee Duetta and the SL3 along with the Carver TFM 25 and the Krell Kav 250. We also invite some veteran audio reviewers to attend. If it can be done and if there is no sound diffrence enough to be audible between the Carver and the Krell KAV driving the SL3 and the Apogge Duetta , I will eat up my airfares, Hotel, foods and the cost of my time. If there is audible difference, I want my expenses to be paid for. There is no tricks no gimmick, just a wriiten contract enforceable by that state laws. BTW, the spec and testing equipments and room acoustic treatment aside are simply not needed since it will be a waste of time. I will check back this forum once in a while for your acceptance. Topic of today:" amp is not just an amp to amplify the incoming signal by andrew doan." Regards, Andrew Doan
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post #104 of 111 Old 08-23-2009, 12:05 PM
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Please gather up the Krell 400 XI and the Bryston BP26 and the 4 Bsst and the speakers will be a small bookshelf Paradigm S2 v2 at the hotel place. I will bring my ICs and my Cds. If I can differentiate which is which, I eat my own expenses and bring the Brystons and the Paradigm home with me. If I cannot, I will eat my own expense and admit to this forum that I am a FRAUD.

Interesting challenge. Who pays for the thousands of dollars in equipment you require them to purchase, so that you can prove your claim?
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post #105 of 111 Old 08-23-2009, 12:38 PM
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Interesting challenge. Who pays for the thousands of dollars in equipment you require them to purchase, so that you can prove your claim?

Who will pay for my expenses : airfare roundtrip, hotel , foods, drinks and my meter running per hour ? I have made a good pass. He 've received the ball. It's up to him to run for a touch down or drop the ball. I will be back in 2 weeks, if there is no acceptance, game over. Talk is cheap. Let's take an action and draw up a a legal contract. 1. Location needs to be change to Vegas as I have another challange may happen there. 2. To avoid any tampering with the outcome of the contest, all equipments including ICs, CDs will be in factory sealed. 3. Contract has to enforceable by the state laws where the contest will be hold.
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post #106 of 111 Old 08-23-2009, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewdoan View Post

Who will pay for my expenses : airfare roundtrip, hotel , foods, drinks and my meter running per hour ? I have made a good pass. He 've received the ball. It's up to him to run for a touch down or drop the ball. I will be back in 2 weeks, if there is no acceptance, game over. Talk is cheap. Let's take an action and draw up a a legal contract. 1. Location needs to be change to Vegas as I have another challange may happen there. 2. To avoid any tampering with the outcome of the contest, all equipments including ICs, CDs will be in factory sealed. 3. Contract has to enforceable by the state laws where the contest will be hold.


Nonsense. Why should anyone spend all that money on factory sealed equipment, just to watch you fail? What's in it for them? And now they have to travel to Vegas as well?

Your challenge means nothing, as you know that no one will do that. It would make more sense to do this in someone's home, or your own, or can't you tell with the equipment you currently own?
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post #107 of 111 Old 08-23-2009, 04:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by andrewdoan View Post

Let's meet somewhere some time in October 2009 at your area.

andrewdoan, there have been questions asked to you but you continue to dodge them.
  • You posted, "All the gear mentioned are or were a part of my life, I lived with them." and I've asked, "What does that mean in terms of those gear comparisons?
  • Did I bring up BS measurement? And what is BS measurement? Can you cite some examples?
  • Do you use bass trap, diffuser or absorber? If you do, where in the room do you have them?
  • What are you referring to as snake oil? The acoustic treatments?"

Do you have any answer for them, especially the one quoted below?
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How have you conducted your comparisons?

And now you propose to meet at someplace for comparing these equipments. There are things we can discuss that may make such trip unnecessary. Lets see if we can do it (it'll be much cheaper and faster to resolve this comparison issue). For starter, can you please answer Bruins29's question?
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post #108 of 111 Old 09-07-2009, 02:01 PM
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Let's meet somewhere some time in October 2009 at your area. All my expense(s) airfare, hotel, foods, transportation and most importance factor is my time... are on me if I fail to differentiate the Kimber PBJ from the Kimber Hero and the Kimber Silver streak. Please gather up the Krell 400 XI and the Bryston BP26 and the 4 Bsst and the speakers will be a small bookshelf Paradigm S2 v2 at the hotel place. I will bring my ICs and my Cds. If I can differentiate which is which, I eat my own expenses and bring the Brystons and the Paradigm home with me. If I cannot, I will eat my own expense and admit to this forum that I am a FRAUD. Since you have called me a FRAUD amd I would like to prove to you that I am a FRAUD or not. You can keep your own cable(s) since the typical guys over this forum believe that mid-end and hi-end ICs stuff are just snake-oil and we just moving the electron so there should be NO AUDIBLE defference between a cloth hanger and the IC I used. BTW, no measurement or room acoustic treatment needed. I am will be off this forum for a while to take care some personal business. You know kids are moving to college in the a week or so and have 2 sons that is my priority but i will check your acceptance once in a while. Regards, Andrew Doan.

Hi there, I am back as promised. How are you gentlemen doing? I may use my term liberally but it's all fine. You are ready for BB 8'clock on 09/09 BeatlesmaniaFest. I have my cash ready after pawning off some of my unused Ramen noodles and maccaroni and cheese. ANW, Bruins29 , isn't it? it is very simple procedures, sir. Two (2) pairs of PBJ, Two(2) pairs of Hero, Two (2) pairs of Silver Streak. All brand new 1 meter length in sealed box that I will ordered on line at my own expense and these budget RCA ain't cheap. You can check the price 1 meter per pair yourself. 4 (four) CDs factory sealed : 2 CDs (two) by Diana Krall and 2 (two ) CDs by the Fourplay , again at my own expense and at my own choice either from BB or Fry's store. 1 set pf PBJ from pre to amp and 1 set PBJ from solid state CDP ( at your choice) to pre-amp. Speaker cables could be any cheap 14 gauge Monter cable. Alternatively, after I correctly identify the cables then we move on to the other set and so on. No mix-match, no trick. We use the elimination process after one set of cables is indentified correctly, I myself or my helper will put that set away and the contest will move on to another set. I need to see the Paradign S2 v2 speakers and have the remote control for the pre-amp. The cables and amp/ preamp can be hide or block from my sight. Let's do it. The odds are against me. There is 99.9 % chance, a person will fail this test. We are only moving electron here. Forget all the BS skin effect, electronic characteristics such as capacitance, inductance,resistance...You will have a chance to humiliate me and a good time in Vegas. I will have a chance to keep the NIB 4 BSST and the BP26 pre. the price is too cheap. There was 15k challenge some years ago. Wire is wire, brother Bruins29. Talking is cheap and I am tired of BS. Let's take action. Man to man, we will prove that Kimber Kable and Andreww Doan are FRAUD since a person will have only .00% to differentiate what's not in existence. I will be back. Happy Labor day!
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post #109 of 111 Old 09-07-2009, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

andrewdoan, there have been questions asked to you but you continue to dodge them.
  • You posted, "All the gear mentioned are or were a part of my life, I lived with them." and I've asked, "What does that mean in terms of those gear comparisons?
  • Did I bring up BS measurement? And what is BS measurement? Can you cite some examples?
  • Do you use bass trap, diffuser or absorber? If you do, where in the room do you have them?
  • What are you referring to as snake oil? The acoustic treatments?"

Do you have any answer for them, especially the one quoted below?


And now you propose to meet at someplace for comparing these equipments. There are things we can discuss that may make such trip unnecessary. Lets see if we can do it (it'll be much cheaper and faster to resolve this comparison issue). For starter, can you please answer Bruins29's question?

Well, I will take it as a "No" to my offer of challenge. We will have no further nonsense discussion that will lead to a road of no-where, sorry Gov. Palin, no punt intended. I would rather doubt that you ever owned or heard the Appogee Duetta, the ML SL3 with the Carver TFM 25 and the Krel KAV 250yourself. I do not dodge your questions, sir while you intentionally tied me down with the baby ML Aerius I while my discusion or challenge is the TFM 25 Vs the Apogee Duette and the ML sl3 , I ignored them since it is irrelevant and non-beneficial to my interest .I will concentrate on my challenge with Bruins29. With all due respect, money talks and BS walks. If there is no chips on the table, please do not entertaining the idea of sitting in the VIP chair. The Vip chair belongs to big boys who are willing to bet their chips not just BS talk. I will not wasting my time to answer any comments except from Bruins29. Sorry, guys but it's just a fact of life. My meter does run at minimum wage so be it.
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post #110 of 111 Old 09-07-2009, 04:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by andrewdoan View Post

I will not wasting my time to answer any comments except from Bruins29.

Ok, I'll sit back and wait.
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post #111 of 111 Old 09-08-2009, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by gychang View Post

I am looking for a excellent sounding CD player, but rarely will also use to play DVDs.

I am not interested in all the fancy features of the DVD playing but mainly with good sound when I play audio CD.

Anyone have suggestion?, seems to be numerous DVD players under $50 range... but again with good audio.

thanks,

gychang

Gychang, I owe you an apology for hi-jacking your threat. Please accept my sincere apology. Bruins29, you have over 2 weeks to accept my offer and since I have heard from you, I will consider you reject my offer. I also sincerely apolozige to the moderator of the AVS forum for any inconvenience and I thank you for not censoring my posts. I need to move on to another pasture since this one is no longer having anything interested to me. Adieu, Goodbye....Good luck to all of you. Happy listenning and please be at BB tomorrow ( they open at 8 am) for the Beatlemania....
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