which cheap DVD player as audio CD player? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 111 Old 06-25-2009, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I am looking for a excellent sounding CD player, but rarely will also use to play DVDs.

I am not interested in all the fancy features of the DVD playing but mainly with good sound when I play audio CD.

Anyone have suggestion?, seems to be numerous DVD players under $50 range... but again with good audio.

thanks,

gychang
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post #2 of 111 Old 06-25-2009, 06:10 PM
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Will you be using the digital or the analog outputs? If the former, it will probably not make any difference. If the latter, it could but I doubt if there's much to choose among $50 sets.

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post #3 of 111 Old 06-25-2009, 06:22 PM
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i have a denon 1930 which i believe can be had for about 100--if you need analog audio it is about as good of a player as you can grt for the money--the pioneer models in that price range are pretty good too.
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post #4 of 111 Old 06-25-2009, 06:30 PM
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Sound quality–wise, they're all a horse apiece. Panasonic seems to have the best long-term reliability. I'd stay away from the no-name and store brands.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #5 of 111 Old 06-26-2009, 08:12 AM
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a bit higher than the originally stated price range, but with the oppo bdp-83 finally going on sale to the general public, i'd wager that a used oppo 980h could be had for around a hundred bucks in the near future...

if the op doesn't want to reach for the extra 50 bucks, i agree with mcnarus...

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post #6 of 111 Old 06-26-2009, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

i have a denon 1930 which i believe can be had for about 100--if you need analog audio it is about as good of a player as you can grt for the money--the pioneer models in that price range are pretty good too.

I just bought a 1940 for $89. I have compared its analog connection to its digital connection to my Denon3803 and although I "think" I can hear a difference, as I have always said, deciding which difference I prefer is probably impossible.

Not sure what your price range is, though, gychang.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #7 of 111 Old 06-26-2009, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Not sure what your price range is, though, gychang.

<$50?. cost effective solution is what I am looking for...

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post #8 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 09:45 AM
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Buy the player that has the features and appearance want. Sound quality wise they are going to be the same regardless of how much you spend, any differences in sound will be basically inaudible.

If your looking for an increase in sound quality. Look into room treatment or new speakers.

GIK offers some great room treatments and some of there artistic panels are simply beautiful.
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post #9 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gychang View Post

<$50?. cost effective solution is what I am looking for...


I myself put priority on SQ of a player, but would not buy a player at $50 (let alone less).

Be aware that there is a *strong* group of people that post here at AVS (repeatedly; i.e. on and on ad nauseam) that even more expensive players are a waste of money; whereas it's my experience that more expensive players have merit both for better sound and especially for better DVD video.

In your Original Post (which started this thread), you stated: "I am looking for a excellent sounding CD player, but rarely will also use to play DVDs."

Do a search at www.amazon.com for: denon sacd player

You'll get an interesting number of hits which include some serious *closeout* activity on *new* Denon universal players.

Myself, I bought a new 1940ci player (currently $80 w/free shipping; a bit of a tin can; weakest point is DVD movie playback which seems to not be all that high on your list of priorities; still quite a deal at the current closeout price), and a new 2930ci player (currently $298 w/free shipping), and a new 5910ci (currently $999 w/free shipping). FWIW, I gave some serious thought to buying *2* 5910ci players but decided not to.

Given your $50 target and your main interest in sound quality, go with the Denon 1940ci.

Best wishes for you with whatever you decide to buy.

Cheers

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #10 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

I myself put priority on SQ of a player, but would not buy a player at $50 (let alone less).

Be aware that there is a *strong* group of people that post here at AVS (repeatedly; i.e. on and on ad nauseam) that even more expensive players are a waste of money; whereas it's my experience that more expensive players have merit both for better sound and especially for better DVD video.

I dont think this group says more expensive players are a waste of money...for the most part. But I do see them asky why someone felt a player had "better sound."

Since you brought it up and seem to beleive that the more expensive players do sound better why not share some experiences and examples instead of just throwing out the "more expensive players sound better."

Also, while you are at it please tell us the methods you used to make this determination. I am always looking for upgraeds so if you know of them please do tell...I think that would be a lot more helpful than the more $ is more performance.
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post #11 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 12:33 PM
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Honestly, people who say they can hear differences are more than likely being fooled by the very powerful placebo affect. I too was fooled into believing that every little thing in the system really mattered as far as sound quality was concerned.

I truly believed I could hear a difference between my Emotiva ERC-1 and my Xbox 360 when playing CDs. I brought my friends over, and they too could hear a difference. I even went on the Emotiva forums and recommended the player to others on the basis of what I had heard.

Then on one of my days off, I was reading into the likes of double blind testing. I became very interested in the subjects and decided to set up a small scale version between me and my friends. We couldn't control every variable in hour small household environment, but we could remove sight from the equation simply by putting a blindfold on.

The results, well...all of us could easily distinguish between the four speakers we pitted against each other, and generally the more expensive speakers did sound better. On the other hand none of us(there were 7 of us ) could tell any difference in any of the receivers or any of the cd players. A couple of us thought we could but ended up picking the crap cd player over the Emotiva ERC-1. There were four receivers ranging from a $1500 Denon to a $140 Yamaha. There were 3 CD players: Emotiva ERC-1, Xbox 360, and a Sony DVP - NC675P DVD player costing less than $20.

Of the 7 participants, 5 admitted they couldn't hear any difference(keep in mind that all 5 of these people solemnly swore they COULD hear a difference - some even going as far as saying they heard a "Big" or "Huge" difference- when they weren't blindfolded), the other 2 claimed they could barely tell a difference. Of the 2 that claimed to hear a difference, one said he liked C best which was the XBOX 360 and one said he liked B best which was the $20 Sony.

A great article to read involving double blind testing is this one http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_marco.htm

It pits a sub $100 CD player against a $1300 dollar CD player along with many other expensive "placebo" components.



Even if there were very tiny differences in the sounds of CD players,(and there very well could be since the double blind test don't prove that there aren't differences in sound, they simply prove that those differences are too small to be distinguished when the person can't "see" what he/she is listening to), I wouldn't suggest buying a CD player for an increase in sound quality simply because spending for example $500 on some GIK acoustic panels is going to net you 1000 times the increase in SQ as spending $10,000 on some Reference CD player. Simply buy the CD player that has all the features you need and save the extra money for things that will actually increase the SQ, such as speakers, room acoustics, and even amplification if you like to listen loud.

Here are two sample systems.

System 1: Total Cost : $10,300

5 JTR Triple 8s
1 SVS PB-13 Ultra
1 GIK Room Kit package 3
1 Emotiva XPA 5
1 Yamaha RX-V663
1 PS3


System 2: Total Cost : $258,265

1 Definitive Technology BP 7004 5.1 System
1 Yamaha RX-Z11
5 McIntosh MC2KW
1 Burmester CES2008

The fact is -and it really is the truth - is that system 1 would totally and completely blow system 2 out of the water even though it only cost a fraction of the price. Why, because the money was spent where it matters most(Speakers, room acoustics) as opposed to spending money on components that can't be distinguished from simple $100 components in DBT.


Also, I am open to the possibility that I am wrong. If someone were to set up and document a DBT in which a large number of people were able to clearly distinguish between and say "ya, that $1,000 cdp is in a completely different league from that $50 cdp" then I will be the first to advocate the purchase of such products. Until then, I will continue to try to inform the uninformed.
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post #12 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 01:11 PM
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A DBT is not really that useful when comparing CDPs because one could be outputting more voltage than the the other. It would throw off the test.
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post #13 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 01:17 PM
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i have an old Sony DVD player that has to be every bit of 6 years old or so, and that plays CDs fine. it will actually play my HDCD's as well, which was a nice suprise

im going to +1 for getting any nice name brand player. i think the Panosonic or Denon recommendations will work out great for you. and i can certainly vouch for lasting build quality on my Sony. sorry though, i cant get you the model number. not at home

2.0 > 7.1
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post #14 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

A DBT is not really that useful when comparing CDPs because one could be outputting more voltage than the the other. It would throw off the test.

Like I said, it was a simple experiment where we had no way of controlling all the variables. Even still, a cdp that cost 20x as much should have enough of sound quality difference for us to notice.
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post #15 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post

Like I said, it was a simple experiment where we had no way of controlling all the variables. Even still, a cdp that cost 20x as much should have enough of sound quality difference for us to notice.

I guess although I dont put a lot of stock in "Shoulds". $500 a foot cable "should" sound better than Home Depot 12AWG but...it dosent. Well, I take that back, it does if you are justifying a purchase to yourself and a AV forum and still are stupid enough to believe that cables can make a SQ difference.. Many here still do. They live in fantasy land.

Anyway, A 20x CDP may very well sound different, better, louder etc...What could be happenning is that its outputting more voltage than the player its being compared to. Guess what happens next. It sounds louder, which is percived as better, and you can figure out the rest. Wouldn't it just be better to turn up the volume on the old player? Seems a lot more cost effective.

Like I said before. A DBT (without the variables removed) on CDPs does not work.
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post #16 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

I guess although I dont put a lot of stock in "Shoulds". $500 a foot cable "should" sound better than Home Depot 12AWG but...it dosent. Well, I take that back, it does if you are justifying a purchase to yourself and a AV forum and still are stupid enough to believe that cables can make a SQ difference.. Many here still do. They live in fantasy land.

Anyway, A 20x CDP may very well sound different, better, louder etc...What could be happenning is that its outputting more voltage than the player its being compared to. Guess what happens next. It sounds louder, which is percived as better, and you can figure out the rest. Wouldn't it just be better to turn up the volume on the old player? Seems a lot more cost effective.

Like I said before. A DBT (without the variables removed) on CDPs does not work.

But he said that they could not tell the difference between the two CDP so it did not seem to have an effect in that particular case. If he did report the differences without level matching it would be a problem.
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post #17 of 111 Old 07-10-2009, 07:48 PM
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We did our best to level match everything with a SPL meter though we found that the CDPs needed no such level matching.
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post #18 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

A DBT is not really that useful when comparing CDPs because one could be outputting more voltage than the the other. It would throw off the test.

You've completely missed the point - *everybody* who goes to the trouble to do a DBT of a player would of course match the levels.

Level matching is relatively easy.

This is one of the worst off-the-mark criticisms of DBTs I've ever read. :-(

More challenging than level matching or blind testing of players, is the issue of time-synching. That is, getting the recordings playing so tightly synchronized that you don't even hear the transition.
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post #19 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post

We did our best to level match everything with a SPL meter though we found that the CDPs needed no such level matching.

Level matching a CDP test with a SPL meter is like trying to measure the speed of a race car with an hour glass. Horribly imprecise.

You would be much wiser to match the measured voltages across the speaker terminal with a test CD playing steady tones at a variety of frequencies, one at a time.
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post #20 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VladP View Post

But he said that they could not tell the difference between the two CDP so it did not seem to have an effect in that particular case. If he did report the differences without level matching it would be a problem.

I'm not buying this. A badly run experiment is simply invalid. The results need to be ignored. There is no wisdom to learn other than next time, do it right!
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post #21 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post


Do a search at www.amazon.com for: denon sacd player

You'll get an interesting number of hits which include some serious *closeout* activity on *new* Denon universal players.

Wow, like 70% off list!
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post #22 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Wow, like 70% off list!

Yeah the Denon 1940CI is a good deal (~$90). The big drawback is that it's incredibly loud in terms of disc spinning noise. I can often hear the player even with the music fairly loud.
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post #23 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacophony777 View Post

Yeah the Denon 1940CI is a good deal (~$90). The big drawback is that it's incredibly loud in terms of disc spinning noise. I can often hear the player even with the music fairly loud.

Sounds like you got a defective unit. I have two of them, and the only way I can hear the disc spinning is to put my ear within 6 inches of the player. I've also bought two for friends of mine, no complaints from them either. And they are now less than $80.
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post #24 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacophony777 View Post

Yeah the Denon 1940CI is a good deal (~$90). The big drawback is that it's incredibly loud in terms of disc spinning noise. I can often hear the player even with the music fairly loud.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Sounds like you got a defective unit.


Maybe. Odds are that he's got some slightly defective discs. e.g. my expensive Denon 5910ci player ($3800 new list) will make the doggonest noises if the disc (CD or DVD) is not up to spec. I've learned to immediately return such discs.

Quote:


I have two of them, and the only way I can hear the disc spinning is to put my ear within 6 inches of the player. I've also bought two for friends of mine, no complaints from them either. And they are now less than $80.


My 1940ci runs quiet.

Got it new about 2 months ago with a build date of July 2007. Out of curiosity, is that the build date of your units?

Cheers

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #25 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Do a search at www.amazon.com for: denon sacd player

You'll get an interesting number of hits which include some serious *closeout* activity on *new* Denon universal players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Wow, like 70% off list!


Yup.

And Denon will be around if you need warranty service, and it is mature technology so the prices are serious closeout prices.

Also, pretty good SQ (Sound Quality) for the money.

Cheers

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #26 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

My 1940ci runs quiet.

Got it new about 2 months ago with a build date of July 2007. Out of curiosity, is that the build date of your units?

Cheers

The two I bought for myself are July 2007 (Crutchfield), June 2007 (6th ave.). The two I bought for friends are August 2007 (Crutchfield) and July 2007 (J&R). The unit from J&R is actually a Denon DVD-758, it's identical the the 1940, with a slightly different faceplate. All were bought in the last 6 weeks, the latest was just delivered 3 days ago.
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post #27 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 12:17 PM
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Save yourself a lot of money and just use this system



No one can hear the difference anyway!
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post #28 of 111 Old 07-13-2009, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
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Save yourself a lot of money and just use this system

No one can hear the difference anyway!

I don't think that will play DVD's, which is one of the features the OP wanted. You should probably read up a bit about audio, associated equipment, and it's abilities,
before just blindly recommending what you have purchased.
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post #29 of 111 Old 07-16-2009, 02:34 PM
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to piggyback on this thread...

can anyone recommend an inexpensive (e.g. well under $100, new or used) "universal" type player as a digital transport for DVD + CD + SACD + DVD-A?

all I am looking for is:

1- ability to output raw 480i over HDMI for DVD's
2- something that can output SACD as PCM over HDMI (my receiver does not do DSD over HDMI)

used Oppo? do all Oppo models output SACD as multich PCM? I believe I've also seen recommendations for some Pioneer units, can't remember the model.

thanks!

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post #30 of 111 Old 07-16-2009, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

used Oppo? do all Oppo models output SACD as multich PCM? I believe I've also seen recommendations for some Pioneer units, can't remember the model.

thanks!

This (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-DV-600.../dp/B000YKGZ3W) has pretty much the same hardware as Oppo, but slightly different firmware. It will satisfy all your needs for $53 less than Oppo.
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