Denon ASD-51N and ASD-51W - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 09-24-2009, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Denon has just released these docking stations: ASD-51N and ASD-51W with, guess what, a digital out.

I am very much inclined to buy one but cant get any info if it is a true "digital out" like the Wadia iTransport or not (I guess it should be, but unlike Wadia, they dont advertise this very much).

Any info on its ability to bypass the iPod DAC?
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post #2 of 41 Old 09-25-2009, 07:31 AM
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I am curious to see this as well. I just open the lastest Crutchfield Mag. and seen it.
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post #3 of 41 Old 10-03-2009, 04:40 PM
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I just purchased the ASD-51N and tried to hook it up to my AVR-2809CI. When I go to Input Setup/Assign (3-1) then assign the iPod Dock, it does not give me the option to choose Digital from the Input Mode (3-3), only Analog or EXT IN. Is there something I am missing or can we not use the digital out on a 2009 Denon Receiver?
Thanks for any help you can post.
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post #4 of 41 Old 10-24-2009, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I bought it too and could not find a way to use dock control in my AVP-A1HDCi, which is embarrasing for Denon. I think their top of the line preamp should work with their latest docking station.

The ASD-51 works fine though, using SVideo and digital output, so I have to say I am reasonably happy with it and will keep hoping for a firmware upgrade.
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post #5 of 41 Old 10-24-2009, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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GBO, perhaps you can do the same as I did, simply not "tell" the receiver this is a docking station, and then assign the digital input and SVideo to it. The downside is that you have to use the ASD-51 remote instead of your receiver's. The remote isnt bad or if you are like me, you will use an universal one anyway.
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post #6 of 41 Old 10-28-2009, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBO View Post

I just purchased the ASD-51N and tried to hook it up to my AVR-2809CI. When I go to Input Setup/Assign (3-1) then assign the iPod Dock, it does not give me the option to choose Digital from the Input Mode (3-3), only Analog or EXT IN. Is there something I am missing or can we not use the digital out on a 2009 Denon Receiver?
Thanks for any help you can post.

Does this dock have a built in DAC that bypasses the Ipods DAC?
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post #7 of 41 Old 10-30-2009, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joao_car View Post

The ASD-51 works fine though, using SVideo and digital output, so I have to say I am reasonably happy with it and will keep hoping for a firmware upgrade.

Do you mean the ASD-51 is able to bypass the iPod DAC to output an S/PDIF signal providing CD-quality resolution from an Apple Lossless-encoded file?

Thanks
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post #8 of 41 Old 10-30-2009, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeffeMusic View Post

Does this dock have a built in DAC that bypasses the Ipods DAC?

I would doubt that there is a built in DAC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post

Do you mean the ASD-51 is able to bypass the iPod DAC to output an S/PDIF signal providing CD-quality resolution from an Apple Lossless-encoded file?

I have an e-mail into Denon about this same question. I would say no that the iPod's DACs are not bypassed. If the Denon docks with the digital output had this capability then I think Denon would mention this in the product information on the Denon site. Wadia and Onkyo both mention the fact that the iPod's DACs can be bypassed with the 170i and ND-S1.

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post #9 of 41 Old 11-01-2009, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I have an e-mail into Denon about this same question. I would say no that the iPod's DACs are not bypassed. If the Denon docks with the digital output had this capability then I think Denon would mention this in the product information on the Denon site. Wadia and Onkyo both mention the fact that the iPod's DACs can be bypassed with the 170i and ND-S1.

Bill

In this case, when the iPod plays WAV LPCM / Apple Lossless-encoded files, the digital coaxial output for iPod of the ASD-51 should be automatically disabled.

If the ASD-51 is able to bypass the internal iPod DAC when playing WAV LPCM / ALAC files, it will be a great device: Wadia 170iTransport-like features + DLNA player (play WAV LPCM / FLAC files stored on a networked PC) + Internet radio + web control + IP control.
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post #10 of 41 Old 11-01-2009, 06:06 PM
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Was there any conclusion as to if the Denon bypasses the iPod's DAC?

The Wadia one looks really slick but seems to lack the on-screen contronl and IP features of the Denon. I like the Onkyo one, but it doesn't support the iPhone? How strange is that!

I've got a huge library of FLACs, so I'm think this Denon things is the way to go. I'm open to using my idle HTPC or even an Apple TV. Thoughts?
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post #11 of 41 Old 11-03-2009, 02:30 AM
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The response I received from Denon support on whether the digital output of ASD-51N will allow the DACs in an iPod to be bypassed was not very useful.

"You will have to contact Apple"

That was it. So I my guess is the ASD-51N does not allow the DACs to be bypassed.

Bill

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post #12 of 41 Old 11-04-2009, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

"You will have to contact Apple"

That was it. So I my guess is the ASD-51N does not allow the DACs to be bypassed.

I think you're right. Probably the ASD-51 does not include the Apple's authentication chip.

"APPLE AUTHENTICATION CHIP
Enables the DAC to access digital data from iPod and iPhone models. The Naim DAC is the world's first Apple-Authenticated highend digital to analogue converter."
http://www.penna-media.hu/naim/naim_...%20A4%20LR.pdf

"I thought it was impossible to bypass the iPod's DAC. "So did we," said Wadia president John W. Schaffer. "Then we discovered the little-known fact that Apple had a process called 'authentication' that allowed mobile electronics companies to bypass the iPod's internal DAC."
"Authentication" refers to Apple's authentication chip, which essentially tells the iPod that it's okay to output raw digital audio or video data to the chip-enhanced component. The authentication chips are only available in Apple products or from products made by Apple-licensed third-party developers. After Wadia first began developing what became the iTransport, Apple opened up the authentication program to more third-party vendors. The iTransport may be the first audio product of its kind, but it probably won't be the last."
http://www.stereophile.com/news/010408wadia/
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post #13 of 41 Old 11-05-2009, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I can tell you that it does output digital through its coax digital out. If it is not bypassing the iPod DAC then it would have to convert it back to digital (an Analog-Digital converter) before outputting information, which doesn't make any sense. I am surprised that Denon does not advertise this feature as well but still think it is bypassing. BTW, the music is output as PCM, just like the i170 does (I think).
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post #14 of 41 Old 11-06-2009, 01:53 AM
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Thanks!

How about the sound quality using an iPod / iPhone with WAV / Apple Lossless-encoded files?
Are the results up to that of a CD player?
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post #15 of 41 Old 11-06-2009, 02:22 PM
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[quote=joao_car;17483534]

Quote:


I can tell you that it does output digital through its coax digital out. If it is not bypassing the iPod DAC then it would have to convert it back to digital (an Analog-Digital converter) before outputting information, which doesn't make any sense.

Actually it does make sense as most using the Wadia 170i are using an outboard DAC or a prepro/AVR with good DACs.

Quote:


I am surprised that Denon does not advertise this feature as well but still think it is bypassing. BTW, the music is output as PCM, just like the i170 does (I think).

I tend to think the ASD-51N does not bypass the iPods DAC as I am sure it would be mentioned on the product page as it is a big selling feature IMO.

Bill

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post #16 of 41 Old 11-08-2009, 04:06 AM
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This is my understanding:

There is no restriction from Apple to bypass the iPod's internal DAC when accessing a MP3 / AAC-encoded file or lossy file on the iPod:
iPod: play a lossy file => LPCM stream => ASD-51: digital coaxial output for iPod => LPCM stream => external DAC

There is a restriction from Apple to bypass the iPod's internal DAC when accessing a LPCM WAV / Apple Lossless-encoded file or a lossless file or raw digital audio on the iPod:
iPod: play a lossless file => bit-perfect LPCM stream => dock including the Apple's authentication chip: digital output for iPod => bit-perfect LPCM stream => external DAC

"Authentication" refers to Apple's authentication chip, which essentially tells the iPod that it's okay to output raw digital audio or video data to the chip-enhanced component. The authentication chips are only available in Apple products or from products made by Apple-licensed third-party developers.
http://www.stereophile.com/news/010408wadia/
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post #17 of 41 Old 11-08-2009, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Truth is I, or anybody here, dont know for sure what is happening. What I meant by "it doesnt make sense" is that if it is not bypassing the iPod DAC then the iPod is converting to analog (A to D), then the ASD51 is converting to digital (D to A) so that an external DAC is doing a D to A again, which would be horrible. Hopefuly that is not what is happening here as would involve an unnecessary step and a completely unnecessary A to D converter inside the ASD51. However, I fear that a cheap A to D was cheaper than what Apple charges to grant access to the digital content of the iPod and that Denon, a high end company, chose that route. It would be great to hear from Denon.

When I am back from my endless business travels (c. December) I will perform a listening test.
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post #18 of 41 Old 11-14-2009, 08:56 AM
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Is the Denon ASD-51 based on the Jupiter platform from Frontier Silicon?

Frontier Silicon, a leading supplier of digital radio technology, has announced that its new hardware/software solution announced today for low cost Internet radio receivers including AM/FM tabletop radios, networked iPod/MP3 docks and clock radios will allow consumer electronics (CE) manufacturers to provide products at affordable mass market price points of under US$149.99
Customers include Bang & Olufsen, Bose, Bush, Cyrus, Denon...
http://www.newswiretoday.com/news/44756/

Frontier Silicon's Jupiter 6.2 with iPod authentication coprocessor and S/PDIF digital audio out:
http://www.frontier-silicon.com/prod...jupiter6.2.htm



Apple's patent title: Method and system for authenticating an accessory:

Numerous third-parties have developed accessories for use with media players. An accessory may be used with the media player as long as a compatible connector or port is utilized. Accessories interact with the media player using an accessory protocol. One example of an accessory protocol is referred to as iPod Accessory Protocol (iAP), which is available from Apple Computer, Inc. of Cupertino, Calif. The accessory protocol includes commands which have been typically been made freely accessible to accessory developers. A problem with the commands being freely accessible is that they can be used by unauthorized or counterfeit accessory devices.
One solution is to perform authentication operations on an accessory device. Accordingly, the accessory devices would not have any access to the media player until after the authentication process is complete.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2007/0234420.html
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post #19 of 41 Old 12-18-2009, 11:49 AM
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Has this been confirmed either way yet?

From the web:
The package includes the dock, remote control, and power cable, as well as a screw-on antenna for WiFi connectivity and a special cable dongle that melds S-video, stereo analog, and a dock control connector into one cable. Analog audio is the default output option, but you can switch to digital output via the setup menu. The system does not allow you to output a signal from the digital and analog outputs simultaneously. (It's worth noting that the output from your iPod into the dock is analog.) It would be nice if Denon had included either a component video or HDMI output for the video signal; however, since my A/V receiver transcodes S-video to HDMI, it wasn't an issue to feed the ASD-51W's signal into an S-video port. Even if you don't plan to use the dock for video or photo playback, you'll want to make the video connection for menu navigation and setup.
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post #20 of 41 Old 12-29-2009, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brecker View Post

(It's worth noting that the output from your iPod into the dock is analog.)

Where did you see this? I've downloaded the manuals to both the asd-51N and asd-51W, scoured the website itsself and have not found this line you are quoting.

Thanks,
Nathan
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post #21 of 41 Old 12-31-2009, 02:44 AM
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It is extracted from the following review:
http://hometheaterreview.com/denon-a...ock-reviewed-/
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post #22 of 41 Old 01-06-2010, 01:40 PM
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Does anyone know if this device passes an unadultered digital signal when in streaming mode? I am less interested in the outcome in regards to iPod connectivity since all my iPod content is lossy. I maintain a duplicate lossless collection on my network which I am hoping this device will give me access to in a "pure" way.

I get the device today and will post my comments later. I am expecting some shortcomings based on my experience with the previous generation iPod dock (which I'm returning).

Chris
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post #23 of 41 Old 01-30-2010, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it does, but from listening to it only. The review mentioned is unfortunately not very clear and Denon even less so.

My listening experience is not very good either because I listen to CDs from a stand-alone CD player and thus the ASD-51N is the only thing taking advantage of the fine DACs in my Pre, but it sounds good.

Until this matter is clear I wouldnt buy the ASD-51N again, besides sometimes it makes some ugly clicks that my speakers are not found of.

I am sorry to report that.
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post #24 of 41 Old 01-31-2010, 03:15 AM
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Hey guys, i think ill get one of these: DENON ASD-51N or ASD-51W ipod dock.

Any opinions on this products?

Tnks !
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post #25 of 41 Old 02-02-2010, 03:25 AM
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I think the denon asd-51 has a direct digital out.
It has for sure a dac inside since it has analog output from internet radio and dlna servers.
On the contrary, having an adc (analog digital converter) only to convert the analog from the ipod to the digital out seems strange. Why do that ? lurk people ?
When answering 'ask apple' it seems they don't have the right to tell they bypass the ipod dac (political answer), otherwise they can say, no we don't bypass, we have a good adc (technical answer).

I didn't do exhaustive comparison, since it is difficult to do that with the asd-51. Everytime i unplug the ipod and i plug it, it goes in disconnect mode (ipod screen showing 'Denon, ok to disconnect'), it is quite annoying.

Anyone can compare the asd-51 digital out with the wadia or the onkyo ?
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post #26 of 41 Old 02-04-2010, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post

This is my understanding:

There is no restriction from Apple to bypass the iPod's internal DAC when accessing a MP3 / AAC-encoded file or lossy file on the iPod:
iPod: play a lossy file => LPCM stream => ASD-51: digital coaxial output for iPod => LPCM stream => external DAC

There is a restriction from Apple to bypass the iPod's internal DAC when accessing a LPCM WAV / Apple Lossless-encoded file or a lossless file or raw digital audio on the iPod:
iPod: play a lossless file => bit-perfect LPCM stream => dock including the Apple's authentication chip: digital output for iPod => bit-perfect LPCM stream => external DAC

"Authentication" refers to Apple's authentication chip, which essentially tells the iPod that it's okay to output raw digital audio or video data to the chip-enhanced component. The authentication chips are only available in Apple products or from products made by Apple-licensed third-party developers.
http://www.stereophile.com/news/010408wadia/

There is also a restriction from Apple to bypass the iPod's internal DAC when accessing a MP3 / AAC-encoded file or lossy file on the iPod.





The NEC AE1 / uPD63901 chip integrates among others some Apple authentication feature, an audio player, an audio DAC.

Some NEC AE1 chip can decode only MP3 / AAC files of the iPod storage.

http://www.pcbfans.cn/upload/file/or...70d7771a92.pdf
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post #27 of 41 Old 03-13-2010, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Comparing to my AppleTV, which indeed outputs digital out, in simple listening tests. I now dont think the ASDs output a pure digital out.
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post #28 of 41 Old 05-01-2010, 09:51 PM
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I just bought a new 51W. It says there is a firmware update and when I go to do the update the unit shuts down turns on and then shuts down again and does nothing.

Has anyone experienced this problem and a possible solution? I have now tried this on two units and I am getting the same result.

Surprisingly enough both units came with different version manuals and in one instance the manual says the power light stays on during the update and the other manual says the light stays off.

What happens with mine is that the light goes off, then it comes back on and then it goes off again. After that nothing seems to happen. I have waited an hour or so and still nothing. That has happened numerous times on both units.

I have reset the unit and it is still the same.

I am connected via LAN.

Any suggestions?
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post #29 of 41 Old 05-05-2010, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joao_car View Post

GBO, perhaps you can do the same as I did, simply not "tell" the receiver this is a docking station, and then assign the digital input and SVideo to it. The downside is that you have to use the ASD-51 remote instead of your receiver's. The remote isnt bad or if you are like me, you will use an universal one anyway.


I just purchased the ASD-51N and tried to hook it up to my AVR-1610. When I go to Input Setup/Assign (3-1) then assign the iPod Dock, it does not give me the option to choose Digital from the Input Mode (3-3), only Analog or EXT IN. Is there something I am missing or can we not use the digital out on a 2009 Denon Receiver?

,as i see its not only the problem for me, some other user had face the similar probs. Now as per the recommendation here I would like to try it without Dock Control cable, so that the receiver don't take it as a Ipod Dock. here I would like to ask, does the Docking Station remote still functions ?? Can anybody help me ?? I am trying to connect my Iphone. It also gives a message, This accessory not made for Iphone, has somebody also experience that ?

Thanks for the Input !
Sunil
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post #30 of 41 Old 05-05-2010, 09:34 PM
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I just bought the ASD-51N and hooked it up to my AVR 2809CI. I triple checked the connections and menu options on the AVR. Everyone looks ok but I get no sound from the AVR from the iPod and no video on the TV. I need help! Also, I used the iPod remote to try to get into Setup but I can't get past that menu - it just comes back stating You are in settings (this is on the AVR but I can't get to Network or Other/Firmware update. Any thoughts????????
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