high-end CD player .. worth it? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 266 Old 01-21-2010, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

But have you confirmed it with peer or other experts?

Of course; repeatedly, over many years and in many situations.
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post #92 of 266 Old 01-21-2010, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

It doesn't surprise me that you're an Atkinson fanboy. You share a belief in measurements and audio voodoo. Outside the sad little "high-end industry," however, I think you'd find that both Atkinson and his magazine are widely regarded as something of a joke.


"Ours"? You are so humble.

If your reading comprehension skills were a bit stronger, you might have noticed that I've made absolutely no claim of expertise on my own behalf. I have instead presented empirical data on what humans can and cannot hear. When you or anybody else can come up with any contradictory data, I'm all ears.

But all you can do is argue from authority. And your authorities are pathetic.


I made it quite clear that I agree wholeheartedly with John Atkinson and Nelson Pass on this matter, and share their opinions; "ours" is therefore an appropriate reference to those shared opinions. Study the English language.

It is highly appropriate for you to claim no expertise whatsoever.
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post #93 of 266 Old 01-21-2010, 10:02 AM
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It is highly appropriate for you to claim no expertise whatsoever.

And it is to be expected that you can't see your lack of expertise, either.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #94 of 266 Old 01-21-2010, 11:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Of course; repeatedly, over many years and in many situations.

commsysman, if it was confirmed, then why did you write that you think your testing methods are valid?
Are you making things up as you go?
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post #95 of 266 Old 01-21-2010, 11:39 AM
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commsysman, if it was confirmed, then why did you write that you think your testing methods are valid?

Maybe he realized that he has no idea what a valid listening test consists of. After all, look at who he considers his models on the subject:
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I also think that if you would put my description of how to audition equipment before any experienced audio reviewer or audio store owner, they would agree with it and consider it quite appropriate and straightforward.

Yeah, audio store owners. There's a bunch of objective scientists for you.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #96 of 266 Old 01-21-2010, 03:54 PM
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There are still things about our senses that we can not measure. Things way out of scope from this forum. Just because out technology seems fantastic, don't be so proud that we know it all. We don't. It is a worthwhile effort to try and learn more every day.
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post #97 of 266 Old 01-21-2010, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I made it quite clear that I agree wholeheartedly with John Atkinson and Nelson Pass on this matter, and share their opinions; "ours" is therefore an appropriate reference to those shared opinions.

Whatever dude. You have to level match components and conduct comparisons at least single blind to demonstrate anything at a scientific level.

Otherwise it's just your subjective preference from a sighted evaluation. Fine and all but not scientific.
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post #98 of 266 Old 01-21-2010, 09:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

There are still things about our senses that we can not measure.

Did you conclude this after an extensive research on human sensory measurements? Can you list a few human senses related to audio (since this is audio area) that we cannot turn it into visual format?
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post #99 of 266 Old 01-21-2010, 10:21 PM
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You guys need to mark your territory with graffiti! Create your own gang signs!

The YO-MAN set!

tvrgeek, run for your life! These guys take no prisoners! They show no quarter!

"Chance favors only the prepared mind. "Louis Pasteur"

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post #100 of 266 Old 01-22-2010, 01:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Did you conclude this after an extensive research on human sensory measurements? Can you list a few human senses related to audio (since this is audio area) that we cannot turn it into visual format?

You do have to be careful about the absolutism of this position.

It is also perfectly accurate to say that we cannot measure anything that we hear, or anything that we see. Color and sound are perceptions.

From Janos Schanda's text "Colorimetry" I find this an important statement to keep in mind in all of these discussions at least to a certain degree: "In this resepct first we have to stress that color [and sound] is a perception, and as such it is not accessible to engineering measurement. Metrology can access only the stimulus that will have as a consequence the perception."

It is important not to forget this fact. This is different than saying that we can see and hear things beyond our capacity to measure, however. But it is important to separate what is measured physically, from what is perceived. We know very well, particularly from measurement of stimuli, that those two things are often very different.
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post #101 of 266 Old 01-22-2010, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The only bottom line that determines my opinion of any piece of audio gear is WHAT I HEAR"!!! I come to any audition with an open mind, and ONLY when I hear significant differences do I draw conclusions.

I have no problem at all HEARING the differences in sound quality between CD players, and given the proper quality amplifier and speakers, I'll bet you would have no problem either.


The problem is that you listen both with your ears AND eyes/brain. Unless you do a levelmatched blindtest those statement are not really worth much. We already have massive evidence of placebo within hifi.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #102 of 266 Old 01-22-2010, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

My money is not unlimited, but I would challenge anyone to build a better system for the money (around $30,000).


Would be easy to build a much better system based on scientific knowledge than a highly subjective build system.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #103 of 266 Old 01-22-2010, 07:56 AM
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In this resepct first we have to stress that color [and sound] is a perception, and as such it is not accessible to engineering measurement.

This is misphrased. Sound is not a perception. Sound is a physical phenomenon, and that is why it is easily measurable. This quote is confusing very different concepts. There are really three phenomena involved here:

1) The sound itself.
2) Our perception of the sound (i.e., do we hear it at all?).
3) Our reaction to/interpretation of that perception.

#1 and #2 are, in different ways, quite measurable. #3 is tougher, but they're working on it.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #104 of 266 Old 01-22-2010, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Whatever dude. You have to level match components and conduct comparisons at least single blind to demonstrate anything at a scientific level.

Otherwise it's just your subjective preference from a sighted evaluation. Fine and all but not scientific.

Every word you say is absolutely accurate I and I could not agree more. I don't know any other way to do it.
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post #105 of 266 Old 01-22-2010, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I have Master's degrees in electrical engineering and physics and have been striving to come up with the best-sounding system I can afford for over 30 years.

I don't think I have any lack of scientific knowledge, or subjective experience either.

Would you like to name a system in the same price range that you consider superior in sound quality?


I do not matter whatever degree you have, you clearly don't understand how the brain works with consciously and unconsciously expectations.

Personally I would take those 30K and spend something like this:

*Around 3000-3500 on a pre-amp, 2 power amps, DVD/CD player and 1 crossoverfilter.
*18-19K on main speakers (my choice Ino audio i32s) and 4 basmodules (ino audio profundus Y-4)
*9K-7,5K on acoustic treatment.

This will, without a doubt, destroy all subjective system (= spending much on stuff that don't matter audibly and without any acoustic treatment).

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #106 of 266 Old 01-22-2010, 09:26 AM
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commsysman, here is a little education for you.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #107 of 266 Old 01-22-2010, 02:09 PM
 
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Annoying as it is, penngray will outlast you, and will basically repeat the same thing over and over without much variation.

There is an easy way to cure that. Present a proof.
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post #108 of 266 Old 01-22-2010, 03:14 PM
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There is an easy way to cure that. Present a proof.

Forget proof. Show us any empirical data at all that would pass muster at an AES conference.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #109 of 266 Old 01-23-2010, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Would be easy to build a much better system based on scientific knowledge than a highly subjective build system.

now this has got my attention...

"much better" in what way? statistically measure better than his? i can see how that would be possible... sound better than his?

in what way...?

to his ears...? to yours...? to mine as well...?

or would this sound better on a universal level...?
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post #110 of 266 Old 01-23-2010, 06:30 AM
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Better in:
*Lower distortion
*Better bass
*Less coloration from the room
*higher SPL possiblity
etc etc.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #111 of 266 Old 01-23-2010, 07:41 AM
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"much better" in what way? statistically measure better than his? i can see how that would be possible... sound better than his?

I think you're misreading Nin. I didn't read him to be saying this would necessarily yield a better system than commysman's. I read it as a more general statement that the more one understands about the science(s) behind audio, the easier it is to build a very good system.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #112 of 266 Old 01-23-2010, 10:50 AM
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Yes and it WILL give a better sound if one build it smart in a scientific way. Spending 8000 $ on a CD player and nothing on acoustic treatment is just stupid, according to me.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #113 of 266 Old 01-23-2010, 04:06 PM
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I have waded into this dribble before, but it may have been missed that the "big" differences I can hear are only when using my Grado's. None of my speakers have the resolution I hear in the cans. Enough for amp differences, but not positive about CD. I hope to build some sometime that good, and of course, continuously improve my room treatments.

Even with the Grado's, somewhere about $1000 is about as good as I can hear a difference. I can't fathom what you could do that costs more than about that unless they are very poor at manufacturing engineering. (my background)

If someone would donate to me a current $8000 CD player I would be glad to listen for a few years and see if it changes my mind.
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post #114 of 266 Old 01-24-2010, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

now this has got my attention...

"much better" in what way? statistically measure better than his? i can see how that would be possible... sound better than his?

in what way...?

to his ears...? to yours...? to mine as well...?

or would this sound better on a universal level...?

Yes, a scientifically better system is a better system. "better" is not a subjective "I like flawed sound" or "I like spending gobs of money to convince myself its a better sound" term to me.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #115 of 266 Old 01-24-2010, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Yes, a scientifically better system is a better system. "better" is not a subjective "I like flawed sound" or "I like spending gobs of money to convince myself its a better sound" term to me.


we all "like flawed sound" to some extent...

no system is perfect...all are compromised in some way. every system produces distortion in varying degrees.

to state that one system measures better than another and have stats to back it up is one thing...how we react to those differences is another matter
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post #116 of 266 Old 01-24-2010, 08:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

now this has got my attention...

"much better" in what way? statistically measure better than his? i can see how that would be possible... sound better than his?

in what way...?

to his ears...? to yours...? to mine as well...?

or would this sound better on a universal level...?

Look up the term hi-fi (high fidelity) audio and you will find answer (sample). By the way, it may or may not interest you depending on what your goal is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

we all "like flawed sound" to some extent...

no system is perfect...all are compromised in some way. every system produces distortion in varying degrees.

to state that one system measures better than another and have stats to back it up is one thing...how we react to those differences is another matter

So what is your point?
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post #117 of 266 Old 01-24-2010, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

So what is your point?


if the recipe calls for a cup of sugar and i put in two, i've deviated from the intended result. others may like the outcome. others may find it unbearable. still others may find it delicious until they find out the original recipe was bastardized in some way...then they find it reprehensible
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post #118 of 266 Old 01-24-2010, 05:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

if the recipe calls for a cup of sugar and i put in two, i've deviated from the intended result. others may like the outcome. others may find it unbearable. still others may find it delicious until they find out the original recipe was bastardized in some way...then they find it reprehensible

You have repeated your earlier post with different example substituted but still made no point. You must not have one.
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post #119 of 266 Old 01-24-2010, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

You have repeated your earlier post with different example substituted but still made no point. You must not have one.



(sigh)...none that you're gonna get anyway...
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post #120 of 266 Old 01-24-2010, 07:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

(sigh)...none that you're gonna get anyway...

Try me anyway.

By the way, your sugar quantity example is way off. Perhaps you should've used recreating live musical ensemble to compare to recreating (baking) per recipe. Using CDP, amplification, speakers ...etc. for reproducing music is a different category.
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