what cdp is good for vocal, jazz music please, give an advice - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 242 Old 01-21-2010, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Hammie View Post

This is good stuff.

First, I can't believe the one poster actually said there are plenty of people here who have been doing this for over 30 years and have 6-figure systems. What does that prove??? They have a lot of money and have had it for a long time. Well, I can go out and buy a million dollar home or a million dollar car and it doesn't make me a builder, architect, mechanic or race car driver. Even though I've lived in houses my whole life and have been driving cars for over 20 years.

Additionally, this thread has gone all over the place except the answer to the OP's issue. A friggin' CDP.

He went out and bought new speakers because he was told to. He went out and bought an amplifier because he was told to. And he went out and bought new cables because he was told to. But he still comes back asking for suggestions on a CDP.

Heck, since he has the Emotiva amp, he might as well just get the ERC-1 CDP and be done with it. It has received some positive reviews around the Internet. The Oppo BDP-83 could also be an option if he was planning on setting up an surround HT system, but I doubt he is.

He did not ask for the details and science behind WHY one is better. He just asked what is a good CDP for around $500. Me thinks someone needs to go back to grammar school and practice their reading comprehension skills.

So, pterpm, to recap, I think you should consider the Emotiva ERC-1. This should server you well.

Good luck with this purchase!!!

Hello Lou!

Can you imagine Naturephoto1 (Rich) making his claims about his modded equipment in this thread! They would have his head on a stick!
The beatdown the YO-MAN gang would issue would be one of epic proportions! It would become forum folklore! Talked about for generations!

Some of us have been talking about that very subject via PM over at BR.com! They would attempt to offend every sensibility Rich has. And would be successful!

"Chance favors only the prepared mind. "Louis Pasteur"

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post #92 of 242 Old 01-21-2010, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ldgibson76 View Post

Hello Lou!

Can you imagine Naturephoto1 (Rich) making his claims about his modded equipment in this thread! They would have his head on a stick!
The beatdown the YO-MAN gang would issue would one of epic proportions! It would become forum folklore! Talked about for generations!

Some of us have been talking about that very subject via PM over at BR.com! They would attempt to offend every sensibility Rich has. And would be successful!

It would be very interesting to watch the discussion between him [Rich] and them. I'd also like for Dave Schultz to get involved and hear his take on the subject.

The discussion did not even go down the path of the wires IN the speakers. Or the variation of sound different CAPS can have on the crossovers. Let alone that different amps and receivers have their own sound or "coloration" when listened to.

Additionally, I rarely ever "listen" to gear at a showroom. I always try to get demo gear to try in home. BTW, it is near impossible to get an Integra DHC-80.1 to demo since they are back ordered until the end of February now.

I just want to start trying different things to see how the sound changes and whether I perceive is as a positive or negative change. I will be ordering my Valabs Speaker wire next month. Hopefully I'll have it in March. I'm still debating on whether I will have Rich burn-in the wire or not. It may depend on when he will be getting his since he has an order due soon.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. I have a busy day tomorrow. Later.
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post #93 of 242 Old 01-21-2010, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ldgibson76 View Post

....I'm going to start calling you, geekhd, cruel (intentions) inventions, ChrisWiggles, penngray, CharlesJ, just to name a few, the notorious gang known as YO-MAN! That's short for Your Opinion Means Absolutely Nothing!


Regards.

Hey, thanks for including me in that distinctive group , a pleasure to be part of the truth patrol
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post #94 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 12:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RedOak View Post

Alright i'm sorry guys, i don't spend all my time on avsforum (nor would i want to) but i come here and read about every so weeks on various subjects and have done so for the past few years. I do not share much because i simply do not have much to share; I do not possess a "diplomat in audiophily" nor in "audio engineering" (nor would i want to). However i do have audiophile friends and a few audio engineer friends at work; and they all understand what i say and how i say it, with my primitive language deprived of very mediculous terminology. So i'm sorry if i've offended you somehow.

When i talk about range, i mean the very low to very high Hz range speakers and CDplayers can read/interpolate. If for example, a CDplayer/DAC can only play a theorical 60Hz to 20KHz but your speakers can go as low as 40Hz and go as high as 30KHz, the speakers will never play below 60Hz or higher than 20KHz because that information does not reach the speakers, it stays burried in the CDplayer. Its like trying to fit a bigger square in a smaller circle, it just doesn't fit. Is that clearer?

That's perfectly clear. But none of the graphs were illustrating that conflict. And further, you ignore the fact that if you can't hear beyond say 16khz or even 20khz, what does it matter if the speakers can play higher than that, or the source, or the format, etc?

That is entirely not at all relevant to the graphs I forwarded, and what I explained in terms of the amount of frequency response errors caused by different components in the audio system. By far the most egregious performers and by FAR the most difficult to get correct are the room, and the speakers. And the graphs bear this out quite definitively.

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On a side note; i just got back from listening to another sound system at another store; SimAudio I.5 and I-1 Moon InAmp and CDplayer.
And again, i did ask the tech to swap the CD player from the same system and put a crappy DvDplayer (Pioneer this time) and oh to my great surprise, there was a big difference in sounds.

Texture were lacking, details in the sounds (especially in higher range) were missing from the previous listening. Also, the SoundStage effect was narrower, especially on Live recordings, where the audiance and "room vibe" was missing or just bundled up in the front instead of all around me.

First, let's get something straight. I am not asserting that there are no audible differences between CD players. However, your listening experience fails at basic objectivity and basic science. It was a test that didn't illustrate any difference between the two devices at all, because it was done in a sighted fashion, and on top of that you made no effort to level-match the two players. This makes your listening experience completely susceptible to the placebo effect, which is a very well-studied perceptual phenomenon in all of the fields of human sciences.

In other words, it is entirely possible, and frankly quite likely that there were audible differences between those two devices. However, your listening experience doesn't prove that in any way. You are failing at understanding the basics of scientific rigor and intellectual inquiry. In other words: does your experiment isolate the variable you're trying to test? Does your test even address the question you're asking? And the answer to those questions is: NO. It didn't. Your listening test was not a test at all because it tested nothing. You can't test two related variables simultaneously, because it completely invalidates the experiment. You wasted your time.

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I may not have the techno knowledge you guys have, but sure as hell don't understand why you keep all saying a CD player makes no difference, because it so does.

Let's be perfectly clear. I am not saying that, and have not said that.

I said, quite clearly, that the room and the speakers are FAR more important than the CD Player in the final sound quality of the system.

I backed that up with a few graphs to illustrate just how excellent even a basic CD player is, compared to an average room (horrendous) and some of the absolute best loudspeakers out there (still pretty mediocre compared to the CDP).

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two completely different systems, both in the same range of price and quality (entry high-end they call it); playing on two sets of speakers completely different; in both accounts, changing only the CDplayer dimished the quality of sounds heard greatly. It is that noticeable for me.

But you have not in any way ascertained that the two players sounded different. You're missing a basic scientific education here, and drawing conclusions from a useless experiment that can never address the question because it doesn't isolate the variable.

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Oh and the cables were nordost and you guys were right, they rock!

I'm sorry i can't share anything else; i was only answering the OP the best i could, based on my own experiences. I stick to my guns tho, good quality CDplayers makes a big difference in [my] listening experience. Sorry if it isn't so with yours.

You are completely avoiding my questions, my post, and you are creating a strawman argument.

I didn't say that CD players make no difference.

You made the claim that the source is the most important part of the audio chain. That claim is horrendously misinformed. To illustrate that, I provided some measurements of different parts of the playback chain (CD player, speaker, room.) to show you just how different the levels of performance are from those components.

My point is, and it is backed up very clearly by the graphs above, is that CD players make very little difference relative to the room and the speakers, which make a HUGE difference in the sound of an audio system.

You seem to have completely ignored the substance of the argument, essentially avoided the information that confronted your position, and instead reatreated into "well I think CD players make a difference." Great, but that's not really the argument is it? I think that too.

But that wasn't your argument. Your argument was that CD players make more of a difference than speakers or the room. And that argument is ignorant and completely false. It isn't to a fault that you don't know, but it is when you are making claims when you have no idea what you're talking about and have absolutely no technical understanding to back your claim.

Basic intellectual integrity requires that if you're going to hold an opinion, that you at least be informed in a rudimentary sense, particularly on a technical topic, in order to inform that opinion. Not all opinions are equally valid. And you are proposing something that has absolutely no validity, and you are proposing it within a scientific realm. It simply cannot stand.
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post #95 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 12:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ldgibson76 View Post

That's short for Your Opinion Means Absolutely Nothing!

That is correct.

That is called science.

None of our opinions are relevant. That's the entire basis of the scientific method. It remains objective, and based on empirical evidence.

Gravity doesn't work because I opine that it does so, or because that opinion is popular and held by many. It is tested and understood only on the merits of the evidence.

Whether I think CD players make more or less of a difference than loudspeakers is entirely irrelevant. We judge that based on the empirical evidence of the amount of difference (if any) on an audio system's performance.

If the hypothesis is that CD players make more of a difference than loudspeakers, then intellectual rigor insists that we test that claim empirically. Whether someone, or a lot of people, hold that opinion is entirely irrelevant.

It is staggering to me that a university professor doesn't understand this basic foundation of intellectual rigor, and really basic scientific integrity. I mean, this is the basic starting point of modern civilization and our modern world, it is the structure by which we understand our world in the most fundamental of ways.

They teach this in middle school. And there are adults, even adults with degrees, who do not understand this? It never ceases to amaze me.
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post #96 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

That is correct.

That is called science.

None of our opinions are relevant. That's the entire basis of the scientific method. It remains objective, and based on empirical evidence.

Gravity doesn't work because I opine that it does so, or because that opinion is popular and held by many. It is tested and understood only on the merits of the evidence.

Whether I think CD players make more or less of a difference than loudspeakers is entirely irrelevant. We judge that based on the empirical evidence of the amount of difference (if any) on an audio system's performance.

If the hypothesis is that CD players make more of a difference than loudspeakers, then intellectual rigor insists that we test that claim empirically. Whether someone, or a lot of people, hold that opinion is entirely irrelevant.

It is staggering to me that a university professor doesn't understand this basic foundation of intellectual rigor, and really basic scientific integrity. I mean, this is the basic starting point of modern civilization and our modern world, it is the structure by which we understand our world in the most fundamental of ways.

They teach this in middle school. And there are adults, even adults with degrees, who do not understand this? It never ceases to amaze me.

Ahhh, but Confucius say 'Without CDP's, speakers are big paper weights.'
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post #97 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

That's perfectly clear. But none of the graphs were illustrating that conflict. And further, you ignore the fact that if you can't hear beyond say 16khz or even 20khz, what does it matter if the speakers can play higher than that, or the source, or the format, etc?

That is entirely not at all relevant to the graphs I forwarded, and what I explained in terms of the amount of frequency response errors caused by different components in the audio system. By far the most egregious performers and by FAR the most difficult to get correct are the room, and the speakers. And the graphs bear this out quite definitively.



First, let's get something straight. I am not asserting that there are no audible differences between CD players. However, your listening experience fails at basic objectivity and basic science. It was a test that didn't illustrate any difference between the two devices at all, because it was done in a sighted fashion, and on top of that you made no effort to level-match the two players. This makes your listening experience completely susceptible to the placebo effect, which is a very well-studied perceptual phenomenon in all of the fields of human sciences.

In other words, it is entirely possible, and frankly quite likely that there were audible differences between those two devices. However, your listening experience doesn't prove that in any way. You are failing at understanding the basics of scientific rigor and intellectual inquiry. In other words: does your experiment isolate the variable you're trying to test? Does your test even address the question you're asking? And the answer to those questions is: NO. It didn't. Your listening test was not a test at all because it tested nothing. You can't test two related variables simultaneously, because it completely invalidates the experiment. You wasted your time.



Let's be perfectly clear. I am not saying that, and have not said that.

I said, quite clearly, that the room and the speakers are FAR more important than the CD Player in the final sound quality of the system.

I backed that up with a few graphs to illustrate just how excellent even a basic CD player is, compared to an average room (horrendous) and some of the absolute best loudspeakers out there (still pretty mediocre compared to the CDP).



But you have not in any way ascertained that the two players sounded different. You're missing a basic scientific education here, and drawing conclusions from a useless experiment that can never address the question because it doesn't isolate the variable.



You are completely avoiding my questions, my post, and you are creating a strawman argument.

I didn't say that CD players make no difference.

You made the claim that the source is the most important part of the audio chain. That claim is horrendously misinformed. To illustrate that, I provided some measurements of different parts of the playback chain (CD player, speaker, room.) to show you just how different the levels of performance are from those components.

My point is, and it is backed up very clearly by the graphs above, is that CD players make very little difference relative to the room and the speakers, which make a HUGE difference in the sound of an audio system.

You seem to have completely ignored the substance of the argument, essentially avoided the information that confronted your position, and instead reatreated into "well I think CD players make a difference." Great, but that's not really the argument is it? I think that too.

But that wasn't your argument. Your argument was that CD players make more of a difference than speakers or the room. And that argument is ignorant and completely false. It isn't to a fault that you don't know, but it is when you are making claims when you have no idea what you're talking about and have absolutely no technical understanding to back your claim.

Basic intellectual integrity requires that if you're going to hold an opinion, that you at least be informed in a rudimentary sense, particularly on a technical topic, in order to inform that opinion. Not all opinions are equally valid. And you are proposing something that has absolutely no validity, and you are proposing it within a scientific realm. It simply cannot stand.

You probably don't believe in burn-in either, right?

BTW, I'm no audio engineer, but I can tell the difference when my Oppo processes the codecs and passes them as PCM versus when I bitstream to my Denon and it processes the codecs and plays them. There is also a difference between the analog conversion in the Oppo and the analog conversion in the Denon.

I certainly don't need graphs to tell me that.

So, if the only things not equal are speakers, then why do I HEAR differences when the only thing changing is which device is doing the processing???
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post #98 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 07:09 AM
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Looks like somebody else is sellin' a bill of goods, the usual "they all sound the same" mantra. Talk about beatin' a dead horse.......

Look, these guys are undoubtedly listening to everything through a 14-year-old Technics receiver or something similar that grossly distorts the music; of course everything sounds the same (like crap!). What can you expect?

If they can't afford anything better, it is just a pathetic defense mechanism to claim that everything sounds the same. You need to pity poverty and ignorance, not respond to it.

This bunch of audio nihilists likes to claim that they base their claims on "science", but poo-poo the most scientific test regime I have ever seen in audio; that of John Atkinson in Stereophile. He tests the hell out of everything that is reviewed in the magazine with the most state-of-the-art equipment available, but they want to ignore THAT, as if were not scientific!!(?). The fact is that they wouldn't know actual science if it bit them on the ass. What they mean by "science" is a few articles by cranks that they preselect to advance what their closed minds have already decided. Science requires an open mind and theirs couldn't be less open.

And John Atkinson, by the way, has said repeatedly that while testing definitely reveals flaws in equipment performance, there are often audible flaws in performance not explained by any test available; and also that sometimes the audible performance of equipment exceeds what one might assume from the test results. The bottom line being that you better trust yours ears as the final arbiter of what you want to spend your money on and listen to.
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post #99 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 07:25 AM
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Look, these guys are undoubtedly listening to everything through a 14-year-old Technics receiver or something similar that grossly distorts the music; of course everything sounds the same (like crap!). What can you expect?

If they can't afford anything better, it is just a pathetic defense mechanism to claim that everything sounds the same. You need to pity poverty and ignorance, not respond to it.

This bunch of audio nihilists likes to claim that they base their claims on "science", but poo-poo the most scientific test regime I have ever seen in audio; that of John Atkinson in Stereophile. He tests the hell out of everything that is reviewed in the magazine with the most state-of-the-art equipment available, but they want to ignore THAT, as if were not scientific!!(?). The fact is that they wouldn't know actual science if it bit them on the ass. What they mean by "science" is a few articles by cranks that they preselect to advance what their closed minds have already decided. Science requires an open mind and theirs couldn't be less open.

And John Atkinson, by the way, has said repeatedly that while testing definitely reveals flaws in equipment performance, there are often audible flaws in performance not explained by any test available; and also that sometimes the audible performance of equipment exceeds what one might assume from the test results. The bottom line being that you better trust yours ears as the final arbiter of what you want to spend your money on and listen to.

Ehh, well, not exactly........ There are some valid points to be taken on both sides of this spectrum (technical analysis and data, very important, as is the listening experience, where the rubber meets the road per se). But the size of one's wallet is not really a relevant measuring stick in this debate, for the most part. Quality is available at many different economic entry points, albeit size and scale may come into play with more greenbacks.
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post #100 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 07:42 AM
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Ehh, well, not exactly........ There are some valid points to be taken on both sides of this spectrum (technical analysis and data, very important, as is the listening experience, where the rubber meets the road per se). But the size of one's wallet is not really a relevant measuring stick in this debate, for the most part. Quality is available at many different economic entry points, albeit size and scale may come into play with more greenbacks.

I built my first amplifier (from scratch) in 1959, to drive my Klipschorn speaker, and I have been hearing big differences in amplifiers ever since. These bozos repeatedly make comments to the effect that the amplifier is a very minor factor in the overall sound quality of the audio system. That is precisely opposite to what my ears have told me over the years, and totally destroys their credibility in my mind.

I tell anyone who will listen that they had better get a pretty good amplifier in their system FIRST, or they will have no frigging way to tell how good a CD player or turntable they are auditioning or otherwise listening to. I have heard hundreds of systems over the years and this fact remains a constant, in my experience. Not only that, but without a decent amplifier it can be problematical to evaluate speaker differences, since interaction between cheaper less stable amplifiers and the speakers can confuse the listener about the actual performance capability of the speaker.

To provide low distortion playing MUSIC (no meaningless sinewave test tone frequency response or distortion graphs give you the slightest clue of actual music performance...) an amplifier has to have a stable high-current power supply, precision high-quality capacitors, and a very low output impedance. None of these things come cheap. There are very few halfway decent amplifiers available for less than $1000...but there ARE a few ( the NAD C355BEE is one of the best...).

And of course, there are HUGE differences in the sound of CD players. There has been steady progress in increasing the accuracy and resolution of the DACs used, and the better chips cost enough that you just can't put them in a $300 player and make a profit; it ain't gonna happen. Some of these morons even use DVD players as their main source for playing audio discs, and the circuitry of these things is mainly composed of video chips and the audio circuits are a cheap afterthought. What a joke! The only DVD player I have ever heard that is even half-way decent-sounding for CDs is from OPPO.

The stuff some of these guys spout repeatedly is so ridiculous to anyone who has long experience in audio that it really gets tedious to listen to.
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I built my first amplifier (from scratch) in 1959, to drive my Klipschorn speaker, and I have been hearing big differences in amplifiers ever since. These bozos repeatedly make comments to the effect that the amplifier is a very minor factor in the sound quality of the final sound. That is precisely opposite to what my ears have told me over the years, and totally destroys their credibility in my mind.

I tell anyone who will listen that they had better get a pretty good amplifier in their system FIRST, or they will have no frigging way to tell how good a CD player or turntable they are auditioning or otherwise listening to. I have heard hundreds of systems over the years and this fact remains a constant, in my experience. Not only that, but without a decent amplifier it can be problematical to evaluate speaker differences, since interaction between cheaper less stable amplifiers and the speakers can confuse the listener about the actual performance capability of the speaker.

The stuff some of these guys spout repeatedly is so ridiculous to anyone who has long experience in audio that it really gets tedious to listen to.

I feel all electronics (receivers, pre-amplifiers, processors, amplifiers, transports, cables, etc.) can play into how something sounds. When shopping for receivers, I felt Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, and Sony all had different sounds, primarily due to their amplifier. When I moved to separates, I again felt my sound changed from the Denon sound (warm) to a far more neutral to bright (which is the characteristic of my speakers) sound. Therefore, I feel the amp is not adding any coloration but just amplification. IMO, this is good. When something adds coloration to the audio, then how can be measured of the technical analysis is exactly the same?

Your ears are the final determining factor in how it sounds. In the end, you need to go out and try different combinations of equipment to see which you like best. This is why so many high-end stores have in-home demo units. You can only tell so much in the store... Actually very little since room acoustics can play into the final sound due to reflections and reverberations.

I know car analogies p!$$ some people off, but a car may look perfect on paper and in tests, but if I test drive it and don't like the feel, am I wrong? No.
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So, if the only things not equal are speakers, then why do I HEAR differences when the only thing changing is which device is doing the processing???

Because it's not the only thing that's changing. There are variables you aren't controlling (levels, non-sonic cues, the test subject himself), and when you don't control all the other variables, you can't conclude that the one variable you care about is causing the effect you are identifying. And when we control for those things, many of those differences you claim to hear tend to disappear. That's the scientific method in action.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #103 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 08:16 AM
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This bunch of audio nihilists likes to claim that they base their claims on "science", but poo-poo the most scientific test regime I have ever seen in audio; that of John Atkinson in Stereophile. He tests the hell out of everything that is reviewed in the magazine with the most state-of-the-art equipment available, but they want to ignore THAT, as if were not scientific!!(?).

Just because you know how to measure things doesn't make you a scientist. Apparently, being hired to teach college-level electronics doesn't make you a scientist, either. I don't know how to measure these things, and I'm more of a scientist than you are, because I at least know how to construct a valid experiment.

You at least have the excuse of not knowing the relevant science. Atkinson doesn't have that excuse. He really knows the science, but chooses to ignore it because a) it spoils his fun, and b) it's very bad for business.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #104 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 08:24 AM
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Because it's not the only thing that's changing. There are variables you aren't controlling (levels, non-sonic cues, the test subject himself), and when you don't control all the other variables, you can't conclude that the one variable you care about is causing the effect you are identifying. And when we control for those things, many of those differences you claim to hear tend to disappear. That's the scientific method in action.

How hilarious!

Go to your local university and take 60 units or so of physics, chemistry, and biology. BY then you will have some idea of what the scientific method actually IS and what it means. Right now you are like the milkman who visited the crematorium by mistake; hopelessly confused.
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post #105 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 08:27 AM
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Just because you know how to measure things doesn't make you a scientist. Apparently, being hired to teach college-level electronics doesn't make you a scientist, either. I don't know how to measure these things, and I'm more of a scientist than you are, because I at least know how to construct a valid experiment.

You at least have the excuse of not knowing the relevant science. Atkinson doesn't have that excuse. He really knows the science, but chooses to ignore it because a) it spoils his fun, and b) it's very bad for business.

Gee; you sure have a lot of ridiculous opinions about John Atkinson. Too bad they are nothing but hot air.

The idea that you might be more of a scientist than I am is the joke of the week. You already have SAID that you claim no expertise of any kind, and your comments support THAT claim completely.

I have a Master's degree in electrical engineering and another in Physics (also minors in mathematics and journalism); what is your educational attainment, Mr. Super-scientist?
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post #106 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 08:34 AM
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post #107 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Because it's not the only thing that's changing. There are variables you aren't controlling (levels, non-sonic cues, the test subject himself), and when you don't control all the other variables, you can't conclude that the one variable you care about is causing the effect you are identifying. And when we control for those things, many of those differences you claim to hear tend to disappear. That's the scientific method in action.

Nope. I think you are mistaken in your thoughts here.

I'm the test subject. I don't think I have changed. I even sit in the same spot.

Levels are all correct. No variances there. At least that is what my SPL meter is telling me. I haven't run REW or anything like that.

Non-sonic cues??? If I'm listening to something why do they come into play? What the h3ll am I supposed to be looking at?

So the conclusion here is that the various electronic devices do change the sound based on their construction and internal processing. Also cables affect the sound. A 12AWG speaker wire will certinaly allow far more current than a 28AWG wire. Also there is sheilding, cables ends, and just general durability and construction. If they are all built the same, then why even have different companies? Or if you feel you can do it better, why not start your own company in order to put them all out of business because they are all the same anyway. Not every one is doing what Lexicon is allegedly doing with wrapping an Oppo BD player in their shell.
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post #108 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 09:16 AM
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I'm the test subject. I don't think I have changed. I even sit in the same spot.

You're very wrong, in a number of ways. Most importantly, we never listen to something the same way twice. We focus on different things at different times. Psychologists call this "steering." Also, sitting in the same spot is hardly a guarantee of anything. See Ethan Winer's posts and writings about comb filtering.

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Levels are all correct. No variances there. At least that is what my SPL meter is telling me.

An SPL meter isn't accurate enough for this task. You need to use a voltmeter at the speaker terminals to set levels to within 0.1 dB.

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Non-sonic cues??? If I'm listening to something why do they come into play? What the h3ll am I supposed to be looking at?

"Non-sonic cues" refers to everything you know, think you know, or have heard or read about the components you are listening to. No matter how hard you try, you cannot force your brain to disregard them. The mere knowledge that you are comparing two different units is enough to make you hear them as different in some cases. And there are plenty of cases on record where people have been convinced that they've been listening to two different units, only to discover that the switch wasn't active and they were really listening to just one unit the whole time.

Tom Nousaine, who tests speakers for magazines (and who admits to falling for the inactive switch problem himself) estimates that if you ask people to listen to the same thing twice, they will say it sounds different the second time about 30% of the time.

When you compare two components, we can't say for sure that you're just hearing the same thing twice and thinking they're different. But, for all the reasons I've listed above, we can't say you aren't hearing the same thing twice, either. That's why we use blind, level-matched, forced-choice tests to determine whether a difference is audible or not. And when we apply those controls, we get very consistent results: People don't hear differences between components unless there are substantial measured differences between them. And among a wide range of cables, CD players, DACs, and (with some provisos) amplifiers, the difference are not nearly substantial enough.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #109 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 09:21 AM
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I have a Master's degree in electrical engineering and another in Physics (also minors in mathematics and journalism);

So you must know that the only meaningful scientific evidence is empirically derived data. I've present some, and can present plenty more. I can even quote college textbooks that agree with my position. You haven't presented a singe shred of empirical data. All you've said is, "I hear it, and I'm a f—ing expert who's spent oodles of money on audio gear, and all the people I consider to be experts agree with me, so I must be right."

So which one of us is behaving like a scientist here?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #110 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

You're very wrong, in a number of ways. Most importantly, we never listen to something the same way twice. We focus on different things at different times. Psychologists call this "steering." Also, sitting in the same spot is hardly a guarantee of anything. See Ethan Winer's posts and writings about comb filtering.

Don't EVER call me wrong. My mother called me wrong... once.


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An SPL meter isn't accurate enough for this task. You need to use a voltmeter at the speaker terminals to set levels to within 0.1 dB.

Prove it.

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"Non-sonic cues" refers to everything you know, think you know, or have heard or read about the components you are listening to. No matter how hard you try, you cannot force your brain to disregard them. The mere knowledge that you are comparing two different units is enough to make you hear them as different in some cases. And there are plenty of cases on record where people have been convinced that they've been listening to two different units, only to discover that the switch wasn't active and they were really listening to just one unit the whole time.

How do you know what I can and cannot do. We've never met. I've already disregarded you.

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Tom Nousaine, who tests speakers for magazines (and who admits to falling for the inactive switch problem himself) estimates that if you ask people to listen to the same thing twice, they will say it sounds different the second time about 30% of the time.

30% is pretty good odds. That means I have a 70% of hearing the same thing twice.

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When you compare two components, we can't say for sure that you're just hearing the same thing twice and thinking they're different. But, for all the reasons I've listed above, we can't say you aren't hearing the same thing twice, either. That's why we use blind, level-matched, forced-choice tests to determine whether a difference is audible or not. And when we apply those controls, we get very consistent results: People don't hear differences between components unless there are substantial measured differences between them. And among a wide range of cables, CD players, DACs, and (with some provisos) amplifiers, the difference are not nearly substantial enough.

I'm pretty sure if I am listening to something and I play it again, it's the same thing. Unless, Hiro stops time and switches the disc.
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post #111 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Hammie View Post

Ahhh, but Confucius say 'Without CDP's, speakers are big paper weights.'

Funny!

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Prove it.

Prove it for yourself. ABX software is readily available. Start with samples 1 dB apart, then work your way down and see how far you have to go before you can't tell them apart anymore.

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How do you know what I can and cannot do. We've never met.

I know you cannot run a mile in 3 minutes flat. I know you cannot jump 20 feet in the air without assistance. I know you cannot fly. I know you cannot hear 30 kHz tones. I know your hearing is subject to various types of masking. Assuming you're a human being, I know quite a lot about what you can and cannot do.

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I'm pretty sure if I am listening to something and I play it again, it's the same thing.

It is. You're not.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #113 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Prove it for yourself. ABX software is readily available. Start with samples 1 dB apart, then work your way down and see how far you have to go before you can't tell them apart anymore.


I know you cannot run a mile in 3 minutes flat. I know you cannot jump 20 feet in the air without assistance. I know you cannot fly. I know you cannot hear 30 kHz tones. I know your hearing is subject to various types of masking. Assuming you're a human being, I know quite a lot about what you can and cannot do.


It is. You're not.

You assume too much.
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You assume too much.

The only thing I assumed was that you're a human being!

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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The only thing I assumed was that you're a human being!

Exactly.
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You probably don't believe in burn-in either, right?

BTW, I'm no audio engineer, but I can tell the difference when my Oppo processes the codecs and passes them as PCM versus when I bitstream to my Denon and it processes the codecs and plays them. There is also a difference between the analog conversion in the Oppo and the analog conversion in the Denon.

I certainly don't need graphs to tell me that.

So, if the only things not equal are speakers, then why do I HEAR differences when the only thing changing is which device is doing the processing???

Please re-read my posts. I said no such thing. In fact, I explicitly said the contrary.
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Look, these guys are undoubtedly listening to everything through a 14-year-old Technics receiver or something similar that grossly distorts the music; of course everything sounds the same (like crap!). What can you expect?

Wrong. I'm listening through a nearly $6K Denon flagship receiver, fully Audyssey PRO calibrated, on Dynaudio loudspeakers in an acoustically-treated room.

And I'm listening to a $2.5K CD player.

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If they can't afford anything better, it is just a pathetic defense mechanism to claim that everything sounds the same. You need to pity poverty and ignorance, not respond to it.

You are attacking the messengers, not the message, and you're also attacking straw-men.

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This bunch of audio nihilists likes to claim that they base their claims on "science", but poo-poo the most scientific test regime I have ever seen in audio; that of John Atkinson in Stereophile. He tests the hell out of everything that is reviewed in the magazine with the most state-of-the-art equipment available, but they want to ignore THAT, as if were not scientific!!(?). The fact is that they wouldn't know actual science if it bit them on the ass. What they mean by "science" is a few articles by cranks that they preselect to advance what their closed minds have already decided. Science requires an open mind and theirs couldn't be less open.

And John Atkinson, by the way, has said repeatedly that while testing definitely reveals flaws in equipment performance, there are often audible flaws in performance not explained by any test available; and also that sometimes the audible performance of equipment exceeds what one might assume from the test results. The bottom line being that you better trust yours ears as the final arbiter of what you want to spend your money on and listen to.

And that's where you fall astray of the science. A person who only trusts their ears without any controls of the fallibility of human perception and human hearing is a fool.
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Gee; you sure have a lot of ridiculous opinions about John Atkinson. Too bad they are nothing but hot air.

The idea that you might be more of a scientist than I am is the joke of the week. You already have SAID that you claim no expertise of any kind, and your comments support THAT claim completely.

I have a Master's degree in electrical engineering and another in Physics (also minors in mathematics and journalism); what is your educational attainment, Mr. Super-scientist?

You have a master's degree and you don't understand how utterly useless your listening experiences were in determining anything at all?

That's stunning. A truly stunning failure of education. And a staggering failure to grasp what makes even a rudimentary scientific test rigorous.
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post #119 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 01:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Hammie View Post

Nope. I think you are mistaken in your thoughts here.

I'm the test subject. I don't think I have changed. I even sit in the same spot.

Levels are all correct. No variances there. At least that is what my SPL meter is telling me. I haven't run REW or anything like that.

Non-sonic cues??? If I'm listening to something why do they come into play? What the h3ll am I supposed to be looking at?

So the conclusion here is that the various electronic devices do change the sound based on their construction and internal processing. Also cables affect the sound. A 12AWG speaker wire will certinaly allow far more current than a 28AWG wire. Also there is sheilding, cables ends, and just general durability and construction. If they are all built the same, then why even have different companies? Or if you feel you can do it better, why not start your own company in order to put them all out of business because they are all the same anyway. Not every one is doing what Lexicon is allegedly doing with wrapping an Oppo BD player in their shell.

No, you are missing the point that you are only testing your perceptions, and if you did that sighted, then your perceptions are meaningless because of the classic placebo effect.

Unless you did a blind test, the test is utterly useless if the audible differences under test are small.

I mean, that's basic science. Like middle-school stuff.
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post #120 of 242 Old 01-22-2010, 02:27 PM
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