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post #91 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You really are a troll

Do you ever, ever offer intelligent debate? are you capable of it?

also, do you really call yourself an audiophile? Its not something to be proud of in my books but that is just my opinion

My. my. Such hostility, such anger. I'm ........ disheartened by it all.
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post #92 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

Alas, if only we were all fortunate enough to have the massive intellect required to rise above "delusional conclusions"....... sigh. Thank goodness we are honored to have such posters available to pull us out of this intellectually challenged wasteland and deliver us to the promised land of scientific nirvana!

Yes, you are welcome. I have help 100s of others while you have done what again.

Lets face it you have nothing to offer others, you do not help anyone and you have zero audio information to pass along. You simple want to fight and if that is what want PM me your info and we can meet because I would love to have a beer with you to find out who you really are and yes you can argue about audio with me Since you offer nothing on this site, just daily barbs with zero intelligence.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #93 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

My. my. Such hostility, such anger. I'm ........ disheartened by it all.

Show me something you know, show me something at all. You are just a troll. You are like that in the "audiophile" caves on this forum. You do not travel well to the other more science focused parts of the forum where things are actually done.

I have search your posts and really, why are you even on AVS?

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #94 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm glad that this is getting back on topic and now I probably am going to throw the monkey wrench into the works. Just for kicks I was looking at some of the truly outragious equipment out there and was shocked at some of the marketing. For example how the MLB transport 1621A that goes for a mere $24,000.00 is marketed as a melding of function and art. They discuss the design of the angles etc... like a stealth fighter to prevent unwanted vibration or some such. I am sure it is a fine transport (can't call it a player-needs a DAC which they also sell for 10,000.00 cheap one 24750.00 quality one) but I could not find anything that would make me fork out that kind of loot even if I had it. Also I wonder just how loud you would have to run your system before your stealth fighter design would be useful. Another example was the Clear Audio Statement turntable (if you can even call that monster a turntable). At 750 pounds and over $100,000.00 being marketed as much as art as function. The clear audio gold finger cartridge with 16 grams of gold is only $10,000.00.

I gave up at that point....$158,750.00 for a turntable, cartridge and CD player that I never was able to determine if it was able to process the SACD signal.
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post #95 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Show me something you know, show me something at all. You are just a troll. You are like that in the "audiophile" caves on this forum. You do not travel well to the other more science focused parts of the forum where things are actually done.

I have search your posts and really, why are you even on AVS?

Elementary, Watson. You see....... but you do not observe.
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post #96 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Corybud View Post

I'm glad that this is getting back on topic and now I probably am going to throw the monkey wrench into the works. Just for kicks I was looking at some of the truly outragious equipment out there and was shocked at some of the marketing. For example how the MLB transport 1621A that goes for a mere $24,000.00 is marketed as a melding of function and art. They discuss the design of the angles etc... like a stealth fighter to prevent unwanted vibration or some such. I am sure it is a fine transport (can't call it a player-needs a DAC which they also sell for 10,000.00 cheap one 24750.00 quality one) but I could not find anything that would make me fork out that kind of loot even if I had it. Also I wonder just how loud you would have to run your system before your stealth fighter design would be useful. Another example was the Clear Audio Statement turntable (if you can even call that monster a turntable). At 750 pounds and over $100,000.00 being marketed as much as art as function. The clear audio gold finger cartridge with 16 grams of gold is only $10,000.00.

I gave up at that point....$158,750.00 for a turntable, cartridge and CD player that I never was able to determine if it was able to process the SACD signal.


The funny thing about some of that equipment is that the people buying the stuff do not even have decent rooms.

If you know what the parts cost then you know its all a waste of money after X Dollars. Someone is going to buy it though and you only need to sell maybe a 100 instead of 100,000 to make a great profit. There will always be 100 individuals out there willing to waste money chasing something or just do not care at all about the $$$. They will simply say its has to be good if it cost that much

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #97 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

Elementary, Watson. You see....... but you do not observe.

Im observing, spent time reading what you contribute. I guess Im missing it, could you point me to those great contributions or is it all just none audio banter?

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post #98 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

What else are you trying to do with CD players besides extracting music info out of discs? They produce what they produce in all context when given required power. They are very consistent which is a good thing. How you feel about it in certain context is neither what I am replying about nor I care to know.

Yes, but the "perceived" differences (there or not, obviously debated) within the same context (traditional listening environments) are what is interesting to me.

I guess at this point I am not arrogant enough to assume as some may be that there isn't an actual audible or measurable difference in any person's typical listening environment. The research presented that I have seen so far all takes place in a vacuum with so many controls that it is no longer natural.
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post #99 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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In a way you have to give them credit for being able to market the stuff.
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post #100 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Corybud View Post

In a way you have to give them credit for being able to market the stuff.

Absolutely, More power to them. Capitalism at its best!! You can never put a price tag on another persons subjectivity

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #101 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ngarn View Post

Yes, but the "perceived" differences (there or not, obviously debated) within the same context (traditional listening environments) are what is interesting to me.

I guess at this point I am not arrogant enough to assume as some may be that there isn't an actual audible or measurable difference in any person's typical listening environment. The research presented that I have seen so far all takes place in a vacuum with so many controls that it is no longer natural.

How else can you measure it?

We know that if you stand even 6 inches away from your original listening spot things will sound different

We know that in room response is hampered by reflections if the room isnt very good and that is why we measure using Gated response techinques.

We know that seeing equipment (price tag, branding, etc) gives the brain extremely suggestive clues to the performance and the conclusions made are based of those suggestions as much as what is heard. Placebo tests over the last 100 years have proven this to be true so there should be no arguement against applying it.

A typical listening experience is very, very tainted and that is why I always say it should never be posted as SQ fact.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #102 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Corybud View Post

In a way you have to give them credit for being able to market the stuff.

Yes, market, R&D, manufacture, sell, and employ a number of people in the process. You also have to give credit to the target audience (the buyers, if you will), who are successful in their endeavors and have the wherewithal to purchase and appreciate components of that nature. Thank goodness there are still consumers in this economy who are willing to spend money and support a hobby that keeps a lot of people employed.
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post #103 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Hence, when you compare two components, no accounting for bias, no wonder ones imagination is all over the place, right???

Why does it have to be imagined? It could be and maybe it is but are you certain in the total context the "perceived change/difference" was noted that it is?


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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Oh, now we are at International standards??? Is that the only thing that will convince you??? LOL And your claims are what then???Meaningless, thanks.

I didn't introduce the "International standards" phrase thus the " ".

No the point was to try to get you to realize how ridiculous a testing standard can be in relation to reality.


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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

No??? How do you do it then when you are comparing two components??? After all, you are after results, not enjoyment.You want to know which is better, audibly different, LOL.
Your problem is that you just don't like the answers. You certainly know how to leave that baloney detection bag at the office
Oh, this is just a hobby, using good protocols is not important, eh?

I've never really done that much comparison before. I am about to attempt a true home listening environment dB matched comparison for the first time this weekend. I'll try to post my results if I can present sufficiently in the next week or so.

I will be simply listening and looking for any differences and deciding which my ears (and probably my wife's) find the most pleasing. I am not anticipating it being all that different from auditioning speakers with regards to selection.

It's not whether or not the protocols are good in a lab, I am sure most are, the problem is that they aren't very true to actual environments. I'd like to see more research done in traditional environments where humans tend to be more themselves.


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Of course you are not impressed. I doubt anything will impress you as your mind is already closed.

Not true... In fact the exact opposite. You may need to look in the mirror.


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Oh, I didn't know you wanted a peer reviewed Journal article. You certainly offered absolutely nothing, except your unreliable perceptions. And, not even Journals list all test gear; I wonder if your peer papers do.

You are making my point. There isn't anything out there dealing in the mess of environments and voltage fluctuations we all listen to music in. And yes... vision science research does list equipment it's considered imperative.


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So is your N1, meaningless sighted results, right?

Could you please re-phrase this question? I am not sure I get it.
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post #104 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:15 AM
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For example, heavy use of optical drives can cause them to perform poorly and fail to read discs properly.

All equipments wear and tear, but I don't think anyone with the right mind would say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Or as a TV calibrator, one certainly must warm up not only the display, but your measurement hardware as well to get accurate readings. As anyone from CRT days will know, convergence drifts over time, and you don't converge until you wait a good 30 minutes and everything reaches a stable operating temperature.

I am not familir with CRTs, but plasma break-in is an acknowledged fact. However, that has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

I don't mean to be rude here, but to acknowledge the possible benefits of break-in in audiophile equipment by providing references to display break-in and common wear and tear is a straw argument and it feeds audiophile myths in audio, which I am sure was not your intention in your post.
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post #105 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

Yes, market, R&D, manufacture, sell, and employ a number of people in the process. You also have to give credit to the target audience (the buyers, if you will), who are successful in their endeavors and have the wherewithal to purchase and appreciate components of that nature. Thank goodness there are still consumers in this economy who are willing to spend money and support a hobby that keeps a lot of people employed.

True, so? Are you an economist now? What does this have to with the audio theory?
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post #106 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

Yes, market, R&D, manufacture, sell, and employ a number of people in the process. You also have to give credit to the target audience (the buyers, if you will), who are successful in their endeavors and have the wherewithal to purchase and appreciate components of that nature. Thank goodness there are still consumers in this economy who are willing to spend money and support a hobby that keeps a lot of people employed.

how very altruistic of you...

if that really is your thought process, you could probably help a lot more people in other ways with your discretionary income...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #107 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:19 AM
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Not true... In fact the exact opposite. You may need to look in the mirror.

You are the one who is rejecting knowledge, not him. Rejecting knowledge does not make you open-minded.
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post #108 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:20 AM
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ngarn... one simple question...

do you or do you not control the variables when you do an eye exam?

- chris

 

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post #109 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:30 AM
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how very altruistic of you...

if that really is your thought process, you could probably help a lot more people in other ways with your discretionary income...

Not altruistic at all. We live in a country where capitalism (simple supply and demand), drives and supports us all, one way or another.
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post #110 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:41 AM
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Resistors, Caps have been proven to not change in terms of SQ, there is no break-in required on any product that does not have moving parts that actually change specs with movement.

Do you mind getting the reference for this study so we can see what the definition of SQ is?
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post #111 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

You are the one who is rejecting knowledge, not him. Rejecting knowledge does not make you open-minded.

What did I reject?
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post #112 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 08:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Show me something you know, show me something at all. You are just a troll. You are like that in the "audiophile" caves on this forum. You do not travel well to the other more science focused parts of the forum where things are actually done.

I have search your posts and really, why are you even on AVS?

penngray, you are giving him exactly what he is looking for here, the attention. The results get messy as has shown before. Please just ignore him.
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post #113 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

ngarn... one simple question...

do you or do you not control the variables when you do an eye exam?

Some, not all! The great subjective response still rules and always will.

I can do a wavefront analysis and use 3D surfacing on a pair of glasses the optics should make a person see 20/15 or better in every direction but guess what? It doesn't work. Pupil size and vertex distances and sweat on a person's nose all can make a difference.

LASIK has been using wavefront analysis and laser ablation for 7 or 8 years but even after surgery many still aren't perfect.

HUMAN tissue and human situations.
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post #114 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 10:07 AM
 
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No the point was to try to get you to realize how ridiculous a testing standard can be in relation to reality.

You wouldn't consider the testing standard ridiculous if the test result is in agreement with your subjective view, would you?
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post #115 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 10:12 AM
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You wouldn’t consider the testing standard ridiculous if the test result is in agreement with your subjective view, would you?

I hope someone would call me out on it.
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That might be my human response but I would hope not. I hope someone would call me out on it.

What else do you think some members here have been doing regarding CDP's sound quality?
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post #117 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

What else do you think some members here have been doing regarding CDP's sound quality?

What "sound quality" are you referring to? And how is that measured?
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post #118 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 11:20 AM
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What else do you think some members here have been doing regarding CDP's sound quality?

I don't think many are taking the context of the research they are using to support their position in context of the way the actual study/studies were done.
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post #119 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 12:36 PM
 
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I don't think many are taking the context of the research they are using to support their position in context of the way the actual study/studies were done.

They are calling you out on your misinterpretation of CDP comparisons.
If you read further or further back in this section, you'll see what's been said about the casual observer's experience on CDP (which you call real world situation) and why there is a need for bias control if one wants a useful data on CDP's sound quality so that he can spend his hard earned money wisely.
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