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post #121 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 02:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

optical drives preformance changes is because of moving parts actually, the optical part if built properly will read no matter what within its design limits. Warming up of TVs is always because of other components are in play that may have substances that change with heat (lightbulbs, gases, whatever).

I have had DVD drives that stop reading properly when used heavily for a period of time, requiring a cool-down. What the problem is I do not know.

Warming of TVs is not solely about bulb warm-up time, etc. The electronic circuitry, particularly in analog-based displays (CRT projectors especially) changes as the display warms up. Sometimes these changes can be quite significant, and they continue to drift over time as well beyond just power-up warmup time, requiring re-adjustment at least yearly.

Again, I intend to provide no ammunition for snake-oil sales, but to suggest that electronic circuits don't change with temperature, or over time does not match with my experience in video at all where these things certainly have an impact. However, the bandwidth of video circuitry is far higher, and small changes become very significant in ways that I'm sure we would agree is not significant with audio.

But to argue that electronics, being electronics, are altogether immune from temperature or drift over time universally is not accurate.

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Resistors, Caps have been proven to not change in terms of SQ, there is no break-in required on any product that does not have moving parts that actually change specs with movement. Even speaker drivers have limited change and that happens over the first small amount of time.

Again, this may be fully accurate with regards to sound-audibility, but it is not accurate with regards to electronic circuitry as measured, in my experience.
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post #122 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 02:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

All equipments wear and tear, but I don't think anyone with the right mind would say otherwise.



I am not familir with CRTs, but plasma break-in is an acknowledged fact. However, that has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

I don't mean to be rude here, but to acknowledge the possible benefits of break-in in audiophile equipment by providing references to display break-in and common wear and tear is a straw argument and it feeds audiophile myths in audio, which I am sure was not your intention in your post.

That was not the intent of my post at all, as I hope I made clear, however it is not a straw argument. Electronic circuits can/do change with time, and can/do change with warm-up.

It may be entirely accurate (and I Agree) to say that this is of no audible significance in audio components.

However it is not accurate to say that electronics inherently being electronics don't change with time because this is not true. Because I've spent a great deal of time compensating for exactly those changes in electronic circuitry both in the short term (warm-up) and the long term (drift over months of time) that have nothing to do with physical wear and tear or other clearly use-based decay (bulbs, phosphors etc).
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post #123 of 130 Old 02-12-2010, 05:05 PM
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ngarn:

Analogies never work, but let me try one anyway. Suppose someone came to your office, and you tested their vision. Maybe it was 20/20, maybe not. But then the patient says, "Yeah, but doc, when I'm at home, I can read a newspaper from across the room."

Now, what do you say in response?

1) OK, I can believe that.

2) Bulls**t. Prove it.

Would you honestly believe their visual acuity could be more acuteinhumanly more acutein the "noisy environment" of home than in your examining room?

Because that's exactly analogous to what you're claimingthat people's hearing acuity at home, listening to music, is far better than has ever been tested by any scientist under any conditions.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #124 of 130 Old 02-13-2010, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

ngarn:

Analogies never work, but let me try one anyway. Suppose someone came to your office, and you tested their vision. Maybe it was 20/20, maybe not. But then the patient says, "Yeah, but doc, when I'm at home, I can read a newspaper from across the room."

Now, what do you say in response?

1) OK, I can believe that.

2) Bulls**t. Prove it.

Would you honestly believe their visual acuity could be more acuteinhumanly more acutein the "noisy environment" of home than in your examining room?

Because that's exactly analogous to what you're claimingthat people's hearing acuity at home, listening to music, is far better than has ever been tested by any scientist under any conditions.

I would want to say, "Bulls**t. Prove it." BUT, given my lack of arrogance to all things possible I would probably ask a lot more questions and find out that perhaps there are other circumstances at play (some may be reality and having a true effect and others may be perceived)

I would certainly not look them in the face and tell them they are an absolute moron and have to be lying (analogous to what I've seen here in posts)

I never said "that people's hearing acuity at home, listening to music, is far better than has ever been tested by any scientist under any conditions". Feel free to look back at my posts.

I would say that from what I've read so far, scientists aren't checking under "any conditions". They are doing testing in such controlled conditions that it doesn't (IMO) totally truly refute the claims of some.

Sometimes the whole is not the sum of each part. 2+2 doesn't always equal 4.
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post #125 of 130 Old 02-13-2010, 09:24 AM
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I never said "that people's hearing acuity at home, listening to music, is far better than has ever been tested by any scientist under any conditions".

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I would say that from what I've read so far, scientists aren't checking under "any conditions". They are doing testing in such controlled conditions that it doesn't (IMO) totally truly refute the claims of some.

Sorry, but these two statements contradict each other. You can't have it both ways. Either people's hearing acuity is better at home, or the scientific tests are valid measures of what people can hear at home.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #126 of 130 Old 02-13-2010, 09:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ngarn View Post

I would certainly not look them in the face and tell them they are an absolute moron and have to be lying (analogous to what I've seen here in posts)

Can you quote some examples of that?

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I would say that from what I've read so far, scientists aren't checking under "any conditions". They are doing testing in such controlled conditions that it doesn't (IMO) totally truly refute the claims of some.

They are checking under conditions. Extreme ones perhaps. That defines the boundaries of what people can and cannot hear. If people can't hear certain things in an optimum condition, what do you think they can hear in less than optimum condition, i.e. real world where the noise floor is higher and room mode is more severe?

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Sometimes the whole is not the sum of each part. 2+2 doesn't always equal 4.

And that has something to do with comparing CDP sound quality?
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post #127 of 130 Old 02-13-2010, 05:14 PM
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I always find break-in threads amusing because they usually entirely miss the point.

I know that some parts can change over time. I have never heard a difference because of it. It may just be that it happen so slowly I didn't noticed it. I guess it is possible that some can hear one, or maybe I could with different gear.

But break-in is only relevant to me if there is something I can do to ensure that I get optimal performance after the break-in period. For instance, I know that I have to run an aircraft engine with new chrome cylinders at high power until the rings seat or I will be stuck with high oil consumption and less power until they do seat properly, if ever. I don't know of any break-in procedure for AV equipment that will make it sound or look better after break-in.
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post #128 of 130 Old 02-13-2010, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

... If people can't hear certain things in an optimum condition, what do you think they can hear in less than optimum condition, i.e. real world where the noise floor is higher and room mode is more severe?
And that has something to do with comparing CDP sound quality?

Not to mention their imaginations running wild, uncontrolled and their emotions AND their brains can make stuff up that is not real. Yep, people hear differences between two presentations of the same component when told there was a change made. Oh, well, that is reality, human nature, brain making stuff up.
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post #129 of 130 Old 02-14-2010, 05:27 AM
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attacks on other members will earn you a thread ban

and quoting them is not constructive either: please report problematic posts for a mod to handle: do not respond to them
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post #130 of 130 Old 02-14-2010, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm View Post

...
I know that some parts can change over time.

Yes, they can.

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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

... It may just be that it happen so slowly I didn't noticed it.

Certainly a possibility

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Originally Posted by Colm View Post

... I guess it is possible that some can hear one, or maybe I could with different gear.

This is testable, of course. Buy two, save one for however long having 0 hours on it, run the other for however many hours then do a proper DBT of the brand new and the old gear
Tom Nousaine did this with some large drivers and didn't hear anything different
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