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post #31 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 07:28 AM
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I may not have time to do this until the weekend (crazy busy week). I'd like to take my camera and record video of the analyzer's readings on each. I'll probably set the low to 68db and then record the Phonic readings on all three players.

I have a 10 year old 5 disc Sony player that I'll use factory interconnects.

I also have a NAD T571 DVD/CD Changer that I'll use Acoustic research interconnects on.

For the premier set-up I have a NAD 565BEE player and I'll use my new (still it the box) Chord Company Cobra 3 interconnects.

This experiment will not be able to tell anyone if it's interconnects or the CDPs but in my own mind it will prove or disprove the theory that neither as any affect on sound quality.

All three units will run analog into my Marantz receiver in "Pure Direct mode".

Any preference from the gallery on source material to use. I was thinking perhaps Eagles (Hotel California from Hell Freezes Over) or Norah Jones. But maybe I'd be better off using more classical composer music by John Williams (perhaps Star Wars theme, Jaws, or Indiana Jones)
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post #32 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngarn View Post

Hey geekhd should I match the highest dynamic point to 72 or the lowest, or does it not matter as long as they are the same for each?

I felt like before I heard a higher dynamic range in one of the CDPs so I should probably match the low to 68dB on each. Right?

Well, that protocol is totally inaccurate and not how you level match, period. Don't even try it or it is meaningless before you even start.

You need to use test tones, sine waves at several frequencies, like say 100Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz and measure the speaker terminals, the voltage needs to be within 1% which is .1dB. Your meter needs to be able to read into the millivolts accurately. Anything else is just not accurate and unacceptable; waste of time.
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post #33 of 45 Old 02-10-2010, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngarn View Post

I may not have time to do this until the weekend (crazy busy week). I'd like to take my camera and record video of the analyzer's readings on each. I'll probably set the low to 68db and then record the Phonic readings on all three players.

I have a 10 year old 5 disc Sony player that I'll use factory interconnects.

I also have a NAD T571 DVD/CD Changer that I'll use Acoustic research interconnects on.

For the premier set-up I have a NAD 565BEE player and I'll use my new (still it the box) Chord Company Cobra 3 interconnects.

This experiment will not be able to tell anyone if it's interconnects or the CDPs but in my own mind it will prove or disprove the theory that neither as any affect on sound quality.

All three units will run analog into my Marantz receiver in "Pure Direct mode".

Any preference from the gallery on source material to use. I was thinking perhaps Eagles (Hotel California from Hell Freezes Over) or Norah Jones. But maybe I'd be better off using more classical composer music by John Williams (perhaps Star Wars theme, Jaws, or Indiana Jones)

What analyzer are you using? What is it s precision and accuracy? How will you be able to check the exact same waveform in time so you are not comparing stuff milliseconds apart or even less? Your testing just seems flawed and not very meaningful, let alone proving anything.
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post #34 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Well, that protocol is totally inaccurate and not how you level match, period. Don't even try it or it is meaningless before you even start.

You need to use test tones, sine waves at several frequencies, like say 100Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz and measure the speaker terminals, the voltage needs to be within 1% which is .1dB. Your meter needs to be able to read into the millivolts accurately. Anything else is just not accurate and unacceptable; waste of time.

Charles please understand that I have been told and read multiple comments by several posters here that there is not audible difference between CDP's and/or interconnects.

If I were to set an experiment up the way you ask then it takes the "real world" out of the equation.

I am assuming you would contend that if I did the above there would be no differences found. The problem with your thought process from my end is that it isn't real world. If you contend there is no differences in sound of CDP's than there is no need for any more elaborate setup than equalizing the minimum decibel level.

Voltage differences would have to be the result of the player and could account for a sound difference. Each player would be hooked up to the same inexpensive surge protector; in my book that's the only control for power that makes any sense in the "real world".

Does that make sense to you?
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post #35 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

What analyzer are you using? What is it s precision and accuracy? How will you be able to check the exact same waveform in time so you are not comparing stuff milliseconds apart or even less? Your testing just seems flawed and not very meaningful, let alone proving anything.

The analyzer is a pro audio Phonic PAA2 which was stated in a previous post. If you want the specs on it feel free to look it up. I can assure you it is an analyzer that is highly regarded in the professional audio world. (Where all source material is recorded.)
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post #36 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 02:39 PM
 
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If I were to set an experiment up the way you ask then it takes the "real world" out of the equation.

What's not real world about setting the volume level at what the listener normally listens to for 2 CDPs and switching between them to sample?
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post #37 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 04:16 PM
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That's what I plan to do.
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post #38 of 45 Old 02-11-2010, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngarn View Post

Charles please understand that I have been told and read multiple comments by several posters here that there is not audible difference between CDP's and/or interconnects.

If I were to set an experiment up the way you ask then it takes the "real world" out of the equation.

I am assuming you would contend that if I did the above there would be no differences found. The problem with your thought process from my end is that it isn't real world. If you contend there is no differences in sound of CDP's than there is no need for any more elaborate setup than equalizing the minimum decibel level.

Voltage differences would have to be the result of the player and could account for a sound difference. Each player would be hooked up to the same inexpensive surge protector; in my book that's the only control for power that makes any sense in the "real world".

Does that make sense to you?

No, it doesn't as you have no conception how to compare components, no, you don't want to know as you seem to believe you do know and the real world is all you need. Have fun. Your results will have no real meaning, period, end of discussions.
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post #39 of 45 Old 02-12-2010, 06:53 AM
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Your results will have no real meaning, period, end of discussions.

I would say that is an opinion and not a fact. I would say that this little experiment is fairly easily repeatable for most audio hobbyists in their actual listening environment which I think makes it very meaningful, period.

I think you may be missing my hypothesis.... (so here it is)

I would like to prove to myself there is no audible or reasonably measurable difference between "high-end" compact disc players and lower-end "budget" players hooked up with interconnects of the same length and respective "class".

My assumption is there won't be any difference that I hear.
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post #40 of 45 Old 02-12-2010, 08:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ngarn View Post

I would say that is an opinion and not a fact. I would say that this little experiment is fairly easily repeatable for most audio hobbyists in their actual listening environment which I think makes it very meaningful, period.

I think you may be missing my hypothesis.... (so here it is)

I would like to prove to myself there is no audible or reasonably measurable difference between "high-end" compact disc players and lower-end "budget" players hooked up with interconnects of the same length and respective "class".

My assumption is there won't be any difference that I hear.

ngarn, which do you think is better, forming an opinion based on (1) hard evidence / facts or (2) based on thoughts / assumptions?
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post #41 of 45 Old 02-12-2010, 10:08 AM
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ngarn, which do you think is better, forming an opinion based on (1) hard evidence / facts or (2) based on thoughts / assumptions?

I like the evidence and facts.

But I wouldn't want to assume that any specific conclusions in any piece of literature apply to any more than to the specific situation they were tested in.

For example (not great but here it is)... If I dropped a ball on earth from 100 yards up it would fall at 9.8m/s2, right? (Is that the number?) If I take the same ball and drop it 100 yards above the surface of the moon it falls much slower.

Most of this audio science is done in a proverbial vacuum; it's not perfect and as a result can't 100% always apply to everyone's human situation (at least I haven't seen evidence of such).

Should the principals generally apply. Yes, absolutely! But some of the arrogance and drastic conclusions I see in this forum is mind boggling.
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post #42 of 45 Old 02-12-2010, 11:09 AM
 
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But I wouldn't want to assume that any specific conclusions in any piece of literature apply to any more than to the specific situation they were tested in.

Where in electronic audio equipment does this apply to? As mentioned already, CDPs produce audio signals it's designed to produce very consistently in many situations, whether it's at your living room, night club or in AV store. The variation is in your perception which is a different subject.

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For example (not great but here it is)... If I dropped a ball on earth from 100 yards up it would fall at 9.8m/s2, right? (Is that the number?) If I take the same ball and drop it 100 yards above the surface of the moon it falls much slower.

And CDP equivalent case of this is...?

Quote:


Most of this audio science is done in a proverbial vacuum; it's not perfect and as a result can't 100% always apply to everyone's human situation (at least I haven't seen evidence of such).

Last I've read, you are in optics field and for all I know, you may be just starting out in audio hobby or may be somewhat read in electronic gadgets. Whatever your level of expertise in audio / electronics may be, I know it's not something you are professional level at. Given that, when you say what audio science is or is not, I'm supposed to take you seriously?

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But some of the arrogance and drastic conclusions I see in this forum is mind boggling.

That would be your personal opinion I suppose. Given your background in audio / electronics, how much of my stock do you think I should bet on your conclusion?
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post #43 of 45 Old 02-12-2010, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

And CDP equivalent case of this is...?

Analyzing pink noise on two CD players in an anechoic chamber without humans present.


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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Last I've read, you are in optics field and for all I know, you may be just starting out in audio hobby or may be somewhat read in electronic gadgets. Whatever your level of expertise in audio / electronics may be, I know it's not something you are professional level at. Given that, when you say what audio science is or is not, I'm supposed to take you seriously?

No, you are supposed to challenge me (like you are) but more importantly challenge each other. No revolutionary idea/discovery comes from a group of people who all agree with each other and never challenge their testing methods.

To me this is like in my field of vision science where the book smart lab geeks come up with the nearly "perfect" testing situation and collect the hard data but when in comes to application of the data to traditional environments with humans it doesn't pan out so perfectly. The science isn't useless but it ends up being only truly useful for applications with technology development (cameras/lasers etc) and not human visual performance.[/quote]


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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

That would be your personal opinion I suppose. Given your background in audio / electronics, how much of my stock do you think I should bet on your conclusion?

I don't think I have come up with any conclusions yet? Well, on second thought...I guess I am starting to conclude that there are not enough audio engineers trying to challenge each others conventional thoughts on testing.
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post #44 of 45 Old 02-12-2010, 02:33 PM
 
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Analyzing pink noise on two CD players in an anechoic chamber without humans present.

Why would you need anechoic chamber to analyze pink noise on CDPs. Are you not familiar with line level signal evaluation?
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post #45 of 45 Old 07-20-2014, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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FYI- we are merging households and I am selling my 4yo Marantz cc4003 which sounds great and is excellent condition. Send me a msg if you are interested. I have the original box and RC.
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