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post #271 of 354 Old 04-08-2011, 11:03 AM
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I forgot to mention that the lights on my pair of Velodyne HGS-15s that indicate they are receiving a signal does not come on when the Saint-Saens organ symphony is played with with HDMI and multi-channel turned on at the XA5400ES, but did when the HDMI and multi-channel were turned off. I use an 80 Hz crossover to the subs.

db

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post #272 of 354 Old 04-08-2011, 12:24 PM
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The other HDMI input to the Cinema 11a is from a DVDO Edge that passes the audio of a Sony PS3 and DirecTV HD-DVR. Both pass LFE, and light up the HGS-15s.

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Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
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post #273 of 354 Old 04-08-2011, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

I'm not sure whether this is a XA5400ES or Cary Cinema 11a issue, but I've noticed that the lowest frequencies are missing when I play a 5.1 DSD disc. This is most noticeable with a disc such as the Ondine Saint-Saens Organ symphony with the introduction of low pedal notes. The Sony display indicates multi-channel, etc, and the Cary indicates DSD 5.1. I tried playing that disc with multi-channel and HDMI turned off, and that restored the deep pedal notes. The Cary displayed PCM rather than analog stereo even though I thought I was using analog out from the Sony to analog in at the Cary.

I assume the problem is pilot error, so if anyone as advice about things to try or settings to change I'd appreciate it. I enjoy multi-channel music, and think the sound with HDMI turned on is a bit better, but I do not want to sacrifice LF.

db

Cary may indicate that it is 5.1 but it is not. It is 5.0 as are all the Philadelphia/Ondine SACDs and that is stated in the brochure. So, when you use the multichannel analog inputs, you are not using your sub.

As a rule, processors and receivers indicate 5.1 with a mch analog input since they cannot actually detect the signals and assume the 5.1 input signal is using all channels. Change over to the stereo track on that disc and see what the Cary indicates. I am guessing it will be 5.1.

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post #274 of 354 Old 04-11-2011, 05:19 PM
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Kal,

It had not occurred to me that most surround DSD recordings are 5.0 rather than 5.1, but after your alert I looked over my discs, and indeed most are labeled DSD surround or DSD multi-channel, sometimes with 5.0 specified. A few, e.g. Channel Island and Telarc, specify 5.1, and recommend a sub. It seems strange that surround recordings would not include .1, because so many of the buyers for them are likely to use monitors with a sub.

My vintage KEF 104/2s are claimed roll off below 55 Hz, but that has not been a concern to me because two Velodyne HGS-15s sit next to them, with room correction for the subs by an SMS-1. But now it is a concern, and I'm not sure what to do about it.

db

Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
Ayre C-5xeMP & Oppo BDP-105
Parasound JC-2 preamp into Proceed HPA amps
KEF Reference 107/2 mains & 102 surrounds
Velodyne SMS-1 bass managers & a pair of HGS-15 subs
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post #275 of 354 Old 04-12-2011, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

Kal,

It had not occurred to me that most surround DSD recordings are 5.0 rather than 5.1, but after your alert I looked over my discs, and indeed most are labeled DSD surround or DSD multi-channel, sometimes with 5.0 specified. A few, e.g. Channel Island and Telarc, specify 5.1, and recommend a sub. It seems strange that surround recordings would not include .1, because so many of the buyers for them are likely to use monitors with a sub.

My vintage KEF 104/2s are claimed roll off below 55 Hz, but that has not been a concern to me because two Velodyne HGS-15s sit next to them, with room correction for the subs by an SMS-1. But now it is a concern, and I'm not sure what to do about it.

db

That is why there is bass management.

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post #276 of 354 Old 04-12-2011, 07:31 PM
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Kal,

Please tell me more about bass management; specifically how it can be applied in my situation.

I tried setting the XA5400ES to stereo as you suggested; the Cinema 11a displayed DSD 2.0, so it does seem to detect the signal being sent even though it gets it confuses 5.0 with 5.1.

The Cinema 11a has two modes, movies and music, each of which can be associated with a particular configuration. I have the movie mode setup with 80 Hz crossovers all around; the music mode setup has the mains set to full, thus deactivating LFE. The music mode MOL restores the low pedal notes in the Saint-Seans, but with nowhere near the felt-more-than-heard effect when the subs are invoked, an effect I get at organ recitals.

So please help with bass management.

db

Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
Ayre C-5xeMP & Oppo BDP-105
Parasound JC-2 preamp into Proceed HPA amps
KEF Reference 107/2 mains & 102 surrounds
Velodyne SMS-1 bass managers & a pair of HGS-15 subs
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post #277 of 354 Old 04-12-2011, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

Kal,

Please tell me more about bass management; specifically how it can be applied in my situation.

I tried setting the XA5400ES to stereo as you suggested; the Cinema 11a displayed DSD 2.0, so it does seem to detect the signal being sent even though it gets it confuses 5.0 with 5.1.

With stereo, it is sending 2 channels and the Cary recognizes that. With MCH, the player sends 6 channels, even if one of them contains no data. The Cary can only count channels.

Quote:


The Cinema 11a has two modes, movies and music, each of which can be associated with a particular configuration. I have the movie mode setup with 80 Hz crossovers all around; the music mode setup has the mains set to full, thus deactivating LFE. The music mode MOL restores the low pedal notes in the Saint-Seans, but with nowhere near the felt-more-than-heard effect when the subs are invoked, an effect I get at organ recitals.

So please help with bass management.

1. I do not know what MOL is.
2. Why do you need different configurations for movies and music? You should use BM with both even if you prefer increased sub levels with the former.

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post #278 of 354 Old 04-13-2011, 02:18 PM
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MOL is an abbreviation for more or less. I assume BM is an abbreviation for bass management. If so, how can I apply it? Would it be a setting in the XA5400ES or the Cinema 11a menu? I can understand how the Cinema 11a might expect multi-channel DSD to contain an LFE channel, and thus transmits it to the subs even though the disc contains nothing in that channel. I need to try playing the Saint-Seans disc through the HDMI port with multi-channel turned-off, with the expectation that the Cinema 11a, now not expecting an LFE channel, will send frequencies below the crossover to the subs just as it did during the analog experiment.

I appreciate your patience in explaining the intricacies bass management with HDMI.

db

Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
Ayre C-5xeMP & Oppo BDP-105
Parasound JC-2 preamp into Proceed HPA amps
KEF Reference 107/2 mains & 102 surrounds
Velodyne SMS-1 bass managers & a pair of HGS-15 subs
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post #279 of 354 Old 06-22-2011, 06:10 PM
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Hi Everyone,
I have been reading this thread and wanted to respond. I am a physician and have participated in numerous double-blind studies. They are very difficult to do with integrity but I do agree they are the "gold standard" in objectivity in testing.

In the audiophile world, DBT is often more difficult (not impossible, so guys don't roast me on this) to do, since it is difficult for the tester and the administrator to both not know what the actual tested product is at the time of the test.

In my world, I can be the administrator and be unaware of whether I am providing a medication X or placebo. However it's difficult for me to not know what product (CDP, pre, amp, speaker, and even cables!, etc) I am setting up for my test subject.

I have done many single-blinded tests, and will overall admit that often my results show that my ability to objectively tell the difference (especially between similarly priced products) is not reliable. However, there have been times when my tests were significantly reproducible in MY environment.

Now, back to the purpose of this thread. I WANT to know people's subjective comparisons between the 5400 and other CDP/SACD players (especially via analog outs). I am NOT expecting objective DBTs and welcome personal perceptions. I find these valuable to me. I DO want to see more than " ...this is way better" comments. Please include how your comparison environment was set up, what you listened to, what your perceived differences specifically were in addition to your overall conclusions. Thanks in advance!
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post #280 of 354 Old 06-22-2011, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

MOL is an abbreviation for more or less. I assume BM is an abbreviation for bass management. If so, how can I apply it? Would it be a setting in the XA5400ES or the Cinema 11a menu? I can understand how the Cinema 11a might expect multi-channel DSD to contain an LFE channel, and thus transmits it to the subs even though the disc contains nothing in that channel. I need to try playing the Saint-Seans disc through the HDMI port with multi-channel turned-off, with the expectation that the Cinema 11a, now not expecting an LFE channel, will send frequencies below the crossover to the subs just as it did during the analog experiment.

It has been 4 years since I have used the Cinema 11 (http://www.stereophile.com/musicinth...itr/index.html) so I cannot recall its idiosyncrasies. However, you should not have to "trick" it into employing bass management. That should be the default whether or not there is an LFE signal on the .1 channel.

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post #281 of 354 Old 06-22-2011, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palpitatn View Post


Now, back to the purpose of this thread. I WANT to know people's subjective comparisons between the 5400 and other CDP/SACD players (especially via analog outs). I am NOT expecting objective DBTs and welcome personal perceptions. I find these valuable to me. I DO want to see more than " ...this is way better" comments. Please include how your comparison environment was set up, what you listened to, what your perceived differences specifically were in addition to your overall conclusions. Thanks in advance!

I have published both "single-blind" and sighted comparisons between the Sony and other players. Yet another will appear in the September issue of Stereophile.

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post #282 of 354 Old 06-23-2011, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palpitatn View Post

I WANT to know people's subjective comparisons between the 5400 and other CDP/SACD players (especially via analog outs).

I have this Sony, an Arcam CD37 and others but I'm afraid I will not say anything more here because threads in this forum and the 2-channel forum can get very confrontational and nasty and I simply won't be caught up in that. You know, the usual all DACs, all CD players and all amps have no audible difference stuff. I may say something in the MCH forum 5400ES thread or in the UK's avforums at some stage where the atmosphere to talk about subjective findings is way more congenial.

I'd like to thank Kal for his review which played a significant part in my purchase decision: as it's not available in Canada, so it meant a blind buy and extra trouble and expense to import it.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #283 of 354 Old 06-23-2011, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

However, you should not have to "trick" it into employing bass management. That should be the default whether or not there is an LFE signal on the .1 channel.

My hypothesis is, it's conceivable the Cary is doing BM for 5.0, but the algorithm still works the same as 5.1, as if there is LFE, so in the sub channel, the portion normally allocated for LFE is left intact but unused and the remaining bandwidth for the other channels below XO isn't compensated (increased) accordingly to fill the gap.

If a player always sends 5.1 but the .1 is mute for 5.0 mix, since LFE isn't necessarily active all the time in movies, how does a processor know for sure if there is or isn't going to be a .1?

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #284 of 354 Old 06-23-2011, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

My hypothesis is, it's conceivable the Cary is doing BM for 5.0, but the algorithm still works the same as 5.1, as if there is LFE, so in the sub channel, the portion normally allocated for LFE is left intact but unused and the remaining bandwidth for the other channels below XO isn't compensated (increased) accordingly to fill the gap.

If a player always sends 5.1 but the .1 is mute for 5.0 mix, since LFE isn't necessarily active all the time in movies, how does a processor know for sure if there is or isn't going to be a .1?

It shouldn't matter. No other prepro/AVR that I have used has this issue and I am surprised that it even exists. If there is or is not an LFE signal, bass management should be available if desired.

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post #285 of 354 Old 06-25-2011, 08:19 AM
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It doesn't sound like the headphones out passes SACD quality. Anyone here feel the same?

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Music makes Miracles.
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post #286 of 354 Old 07-03-2011, 12:51 PM
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FYI:

Just got an e-mail from Kevin McEvoy of "HD Theater", listing Sony SCD-XA5400ES for very good price. Check it out
(888)805-2877

www.HTDtheater.com
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post #287 of 354 Old 07-04-2011, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

FYI:

Just got an e-mail from Kevin McEvoy of "HD Theater", listing Sony SCD-XA5400ES for very good price. Check it out
(888)805-2877

www.HTDtheater.com

I got mine 3 weeks ago for slightly better price from Abt. But this is still a great price.
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post #288 of 354 Old 07-16-2011, 09:05 AM
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I've seen one on eBay for less than a grand (NIB), shipped to 48 states.
Here is my upgrade itch question:
I currently use the SCD-777ES (+10yrs old) as my SACD player and as a transport to my BelCanto DAC3 for others Redbook CDs via coaxial output.
The 777ES does not come with balanced out like the 5400.
Would it be a significant upgrade in both benefits, sonically, SACD and in a sense of transportability?
I'd love to rid of both 777 and BCDAC3 all-together in place of one component: the 5400.
FYI: all downstream components are fully balanced.

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post #289 of 354 Old 12-08-2011, 05:22 PM
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Anyone know where the best place is to get one of these players?
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post #290 of 354 Old 01-09-2013, 09:28 AM
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post #291 of 354 Old 05-05-2013, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

Looks like Sony is continuing to produce the SCD-XA5400ES player. Noticed it is listed on their site with estimated ship date of January 10, 2013:
http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665537319&langId=-1&XID=O:remark_HAV_criteo&catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&identifier=S_Televisions#overview
It's definitely still being produced, though now it appears more difficult to acquire from places other than Sony itself.
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post #292 of 354 Old 05-12-2013, 10:18 AM
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In my current setup the Oppo 105 uses the single balanced analog (XLR) input of the Cary 11a; the 5400ES uses HDMI and unbalanced analog inputs. I have considered buying an XLR switch so both can use the XLR input, but is the sound with the balanced output from the 5400ES actually superior to that from its unbalanced output? Does Sony give balanced stereo special analog treatment? Oppo gives stereo output special treatment, e.g. its own Sabre32 DAC, but I'm not sure balanced differs from unbalanced. The cable from player to processor is 2' for either player.

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Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
Ayre C-5xeMP & Oppo BDP-105
Parasound JC-2 preamp into Proceed HPA amps
KEF Reference 107/2 mains & 102 surrounds
Velodyne SMS-1 bass managers & a pair of HGS-15 subs
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post #293 of 354 Old 08-22-2013, 02:41 PM
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I use the balanced outputs to drive my Stax headphone amp--the sound is superb--and HDMI for SACDs/RBCDs. I don't know if they do anything "special" to the analog outs.

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post #294 of 354 Old 08-23-2013, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View PostI have published both "single-blind" and sighted comparisons between the Sony and other players. Yet another will appear in the September issue of Stereophile.

 

Will you compare the BDP-105 to the 5400ES? I am a subscriber of Stereophile and always enjoy reading your reviews :)

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post #295 of 354 Old 08-23-2013, 07:21 AM
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Will you compare the BDP-105 to the 5400ES? I am a subscriber of Stereophile and always enjoy reading your reviews smile.gif

I, too, enjoy Kal's reviews. However, he has already published a comparison between the D/A converter of the Oppo 95 and the Sony 5400ES, and he liked the sound of the Oppo better. This was the first time I disgreed with Kal, but its a subjective call that I attributed to different strokes for different folks. I liked the sound of the Sony better, and I returned the Oppo. The sound of the D/A converter of the Oppo 95 vs. the 105 are virtually indistinguishable from what I have read.
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post #296 of 354 Old 08-23-2013, 05:49 PM
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comprisons like that probably good reading for you guys but not really of relevance to rest of the world as long as sony constrains build of the 5400es to 110V power requirement only.

what sony would really make a killing on would be to release a 6400es that not only takes the 5400es but adds to it the 5000es blu-ray replay and comes up with a real competition to the oppo.

given the release of blu-ray pure audio format. it would be good for sony to get with the program in any case....and do it on a worldwide scale with 230-240v capability as well as they did with the 5000es.

they'll sell a sh!t load as people snap them up smile.gif

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post #297 of 354 Old 08-23-2013, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Postcomprisons like that probably good reading for you guys but not really of relevance to rest of the world as long as sony constrains build of the 5400es to 110V power requirement only. What sony would really make a killing on would be to release a 6400es that not only takes the 5400es but adds to it the 5000es blu-ray replay and comes up with a real competition to the oppo.

given the release of blu-ray pure audio format. it would be good for sony to get with the program in any case....and do it on a worldwide scale with 230-240v capability as well as they did with the 5000es.  they'll sell a sh!t load as people snap them up smile.gif

Good point, they should include it with Blue Ray capabilities, then it would be serious competition to OPPO as long as the price is equivalent!

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post #298 of 354 Old 08-25-2013, 09:03 AM
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Any one knows the blue book value for the SCD-XA777ES
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post #299 of 354 Old 08-25-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Any one knows the blue book value for the SCD-XA777ES

Audiogon Blue Book average is $850, but that may be high.

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Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
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post #300 of 354 Old 08-25-2013, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post

I, too, enjoy Kal's reviews. However, he has already published a comparison between the D/A converter of the Oppo 95 and the Sony 5400ES, and he liked the sound of the Oppo better. This was the first time I disgreed with Kal, but its a subjective call that I attributed to different strokes for different folks. I liked the sound of the Sony better, and I returned the Oppo. The sound of the D/A converter of the Oppo 95 vs. the 105 are virtually indistinguishable from what I have read.

They sound a bit different to me. I have both in my setup, and have settled on 7.1 analog from the Oppo with stereo front LR, HDMI from the Sony. I think, or maybe imagine, the Cary Cinema 11a is voiced to sound a bit softer for those who think digital sounds to harsh. The Oppo bypasses Cary processing.

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Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
Ayre C-5xeMP & Oppo BDP-105
Parasound JC-2 preamp into Proceed HPA amps
KEF Reference 107/2 mains & 102 surrounds
Velodyne SMS-1 bass managers & a pair of HGS-15 subs
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