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post #91 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 03:32 PM
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Nice find on the picture. Google is indeed your friend!

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post #92 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 04:17 PM
 
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Google is indeed your friend!

Except when technical audio terms need to be looked up.
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post #93 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

If they are charging $5k for this thing there had better be some serious magic in that DSP program, because the build cost for this thing is probably ~$80-100.

That's a serious underestimate. That's a multilayer board made in small quantities.
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post #94 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 04:49 PM
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That's a serious underestimate. That's a multilayer board made in small quantities.

Yes, it is. Not to mention whatever NRE costs must be amortized across the relatively small sales volume.
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Not to mention whatever NRE costs must be amortized across the relatively small sales volume.

Is there an antidote to this for the end users? Could a large volume company be one?
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post #96 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 05:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Give it a rest.

CD

I will as soon as you admit that you were making things up.
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post #97 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Please keep this cival and professional and stop picking on each other.

I spoke to Mr. Ritter and he states they have no relationship with Lynx Studio other than suggesting thier PC audio card. The BAD is 100% designed by Berkeley right down to the circuitry and software processing algorythms. The think I like [unlike Esoteric] it has a variable output so if you only have a player or music server as your source you do not need a preamp.

No Mr. Ritter is not going to jump in due to many matters he has on his plate at this time. Please do not throw darts or call him a coward or sissy. He does not participate in any Internet chatter pro or con. In addition, as I mentioned, he has quite a bit on his plate in and out of the office.

As far as making anything anymore well if one rates products based on that then 75% of what we buy is not made [it might be "assembled"] by the folks on the name plate. The folks at EMOTIVA and SUNFIRE use the same manufacturer. Cullen Circuits [now Wyred4Sound] made PS AUDIO products.

For those that think this is all bunk and nonsense maybe you should build your own DAC for say $30-$50 put it in a tin case and you got $75 total in it. Promote on the web, send out samples to all the magazines, go to CES and AES then sell it for $1000. Then you can quit your day job!

SORRY I JUST COULD NOT HELP MYSELF. THAT IS THE MY ATTEMPT AT SMACK OR TRASH TALK. I'M A POOR TYPIST I DO MUCH BETTER IN PERSON.

The folks at Berkeley's qualifications should not be in doubt and if someone does doubt them I suggest doing some googling. Like I said Andrew Jones from TAD [Pioneer high end brand in Europe] uses the product at most CES and Andrew has an extensive studio background to.

Another fine AVS'er chimed in, Roger Dressler. If you listen to a movie in your home theater its highly possible you are listening to his work or at least in his influence in part.

Like I said anyone near by Salisbury Maryland I am willing to have some fun one weekend and do some testing.

I started this thread to see what interest that might be in this product and get feedback as to its application and what other people are doing. If those persist in taking pop shots and one antoher continue I will request it to be closed. Then you will have to troll and pick a fight somewhere else with someone else. If you wish that to be me I can be reached at 443.614.2067 and reside at 6011 Kempton Court, Salisbury, MD stop any time but call to make sure I'm home I'd hate to miss ya!

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post #98 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 06:26 PM
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That's a serious underestimate. That's a multilayer board made in small quantities.

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Not to mention whatever NRE costs must be amortized across the relatively small sales volume.

At the very least, then, consumers should know they are paying $5000 for something Denon could sell for $500.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #99 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

I will as soon as you admit that you were making things up.

Guys; seriously. Can you not police your own here? I happen to know for a fact that Geek and I were both warned by TOS. I decided I had to really limit my posts here...but DACs are of interest to me.

So I come back in, with a more civil attitude, and a stern warning under my belt...and this guy starts back up with me.

Forget all the he said/he said in the past; I provide a Google pic of the BAD...Chu Gai says Google is your friend...and this guy has to start up. Has to say "except when looking up audio terms". I mean really

Now, he's essentially calling me a liar ("as soon as you admit you were making things up")...and I'd report him to TOS for it, but I know how they work; they'd just be done with both of us.

You know what, screw it. I started this post off as a plea for the "scientists" among you to coral this guy in; police your own, as it were. Forget it; honestly, it's not worth it. I'll remove all my posts from this thread, and Geek can slander someone else.

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #100 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

At the very least, then, consumers should know they are paying $5000 for something Denon could sell for $500.

Not if Denon's sales volume were as small as Berkeley's and they expect the product to be profitable. Denon may or may not have advantages as regards overhead costs, but even if they do, that's not going to be a big $ driver vs. simple (lack of) economies of scale and NRE amortization against small volume.
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post #101 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 06:45 PM
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Not if Denon's sales volume were as small as Berkeley's and they expect the product to be profitable. Denon may or may not have advantages as regards overhead costs, but even if they do, that's not going to be a big $ driver vs. simple (lack of) economies of scale and NRE amortization against small volume.

True, which is why Denon does make such a product. There is basically no market for a $500 CD player. That's why a "$500 CD player" has to cost $5000.

But consumers should be aware that they are paying $500 for quality, and $4500 for the lack of economies of scale.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #102 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Macnar, are buying what you are stepping in dog? GEEEZ man c'mon.

Actually this should be on ESPN, I can hear Key and Double C sayin' C'mon MAN!

Did you guys know it almost broke McIntosh to write software [most pay third parties and many pay a competitor for the base decoding, Meridian] for the end all to end all processors a few yrs ago. They stopped at approx $200,000 I was told since the TI chip was so intense.

We are not talkng SQL or MS Excel here folks. The assembler level address software on DACs and DSPs aint Winders7.

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post #103 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

...But consumers should be aware that they are paying $500 for quality, and $4500 for the lack of economies of scale.

They're certainly paying some additional amount due to the small sales volume. Neither you nor I have remotely enough information in this case to establish even ball-park numbers, and your $500 figure is strictly what we used to call, in business meetings, a "PIDOOMA".

I'm sure it's Google-able.
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post #104 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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or BOHICA...

Bend Over Here It Comes Again.

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post #105 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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or BOWAMBA = death by BOHICA

A tribute to my friend Steven Passas who left this world in March. I miss our talks and his friendship. The above was coined by him to the best of my knowledge.

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post #106 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 07:44 PM
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your $500 figure is strictly what we used to call, in business meetings, a "PIDOOMA".

I was going by xianthax's previous estimate of $80-100 for build costs, and assuming a 5x markup to retail. If you've got a better number, pull it out yourself.

One of the greatest audiophile delusions of all (and that is saying something) is the ignorance of just how huge a premium they are paying for eschewing economies of scale.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #107 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 07:47 PM
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Oh! When I first post here it still was a good thread!
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post #108 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

That's a serious underestimate. That's a multilayer board made in small quantities.

When is the last time you had a PCB fabbed? 1995? Thats a really basic 4 layer board, even if you had it fabbed in the US in lots of 100 your talking like $15 max. The last 6 layer board I had fabbed with 6mil traces/spacing, 2oz copper planes, impedance control and roughly the same size was $6.50 each from our asian CM in lots of 250. Heck my US prototyping house can get me 4-layer boards that size in 4 days for $49 each in quantities as low as 4 with no setup cost.

The PCB cost in that design isn't a major factor.
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post #109 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 08:52 PM
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I was going by xianthax's previous estimate of $80-100 for build costs, and assuming a 5x markup to retail. If you've got a better number, pull it out yourself.

My point is that, in the absence of a whole lot of data we'll never discover, no one can produce a credible costs figure for a theoretical Denon manufacture. Not you, not I.

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One of the greatest audiophile delusions of all (and that is saying something) is the ignorance of just how huge a premium they are paying for eschewing economies of scale.

All the guys I know who buy small company components are well aware of the fact that they're paying a premium because of the small volumes involved. Guess they don't fit your pejorative description of an audiophile.

This conversation is, predictably, going in the usual direction for threads in this sub-forum. I'm out.
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post #110 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 09:05 PM
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My point is that, in the absence of a whole lot of data we'll never discover, no one can produce a credible costs figure for a theoretical Denon manufacture. Not you, not I.

Get me a high resolution shot of that board with all the part number visible and I can easily get you a nearly exact cost estimate on the electronics. Theres nothing tricky about the PCB design or assembly at all. Its all basic reflow with some manual through-hole work.
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post #111 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 09:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Now, he's essentially calling me a liar ("as soon as you admit you were making things up")

Making things up and lying may be similar but not exactly the same. You can make things up about my posts per your perception or intentionally. Latter would be a lie.
Quote:
I'll remove all my posts from this thread,

That won't do you any good on removing evidence. Quotes of your posts by others will still remain.
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post #112 of 224 Old 12-01-2010, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Please keep this cival and professional and stop picking on each other.

I spoke to Mr. Ritter and he states they have no relationship with Lynx Studio other than suggesting thier PC audio card. The BAD is 100% designed by Berkeley right down to the circuitry and software processing algorythms. The think I like [unlike Esoteric] it has a variable output so if you only have a player or music server as your source you do not need a preamp.

No Mr. Ritter is not going to jump in due to many matters he has on his plate at this time. Please do not throw darts or call him a coward or sissy. He does not participate in any Internet chatter pro or con. In addition, as I mentioned, he has quite a bit on his plate in and out of the office.

As far as making anything anymore well if one rates products based on that then 75% of what we buy is not made [it might be "assembled"] by the folks on the name plate. The folks at EMOTIVA and SUNFIRE use the same manufacturer. Cullen Circuits [now Wyred4Sound] made PS AUDIO products.

For those that think this is all bunk and nonsense maybe you should build your own DAC for say $30-$50 put it in a tin case and you got $75 total in it. Promote on the web, send out samples to all the magazines, go to CES and AES then sell it for $1000. Then you can quit your day job!

SORRY I JUST COULD NOT HELP MYSELF. THAT IS THE MY ATTEMPT AT SMACK OR TRASH TALK. I'M A POOR TYPIST I DO MUCH BETTER IN PERSON.

The folks at Berkeley's qualifications should not be in doubt and if someone does doubt them I suggest doing some googling. Like I said Andrew Jones from TAD [Pioneer high end brand in Europe] uses the product at most CES and Andrew has an extensive studio background to.

Another fine AVS'er chimed in, Roger Dressler. If you listen to a movie in your home theater its highly possible you are listening to his work or at least in his influence in part.

Like I said anyone near by Salisbury Maryland I am willing to have some fun one weekend and do some testing.

I started this thread to see what interest that might be in this product and get feedback as to its application and what other people are doing. If those persist in taking pop shots and one antoher continue I will request it to be closed. Then you will have to troll and pick a fight somewhere else with someone else. If you wish that to be me I can be reached at 443.614.2067 and reside at 6011 Kempton Court, Salisbury, MD stop any time but call to make sure I'm home I'd hate to miss ya!
Based on your post as well as the photos, I'll retract my earlier suspicions that Berkeley is rebadging somebody else's product. The price does not appear to be out of line with other pro equipment. I am curious about their filter/spline approach and since you appear to own the product, I'm wondering if you'd care to comment subjectively on the different settings. Not to worry, I won't cold-**** you for subjective comments.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #113 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post
Get me a high resolution shot of that board with all the part number visible and I can easily get you a nearly exact cost estimate on the electronics. Theres nothing tricky about the PCB design or assembly at all. Its all basic reflow with some manual through-hole work.
Except that:
a) We don't have such a photo
b) We can't see the back side of either board
c) We don't know either company's touch-labor rates
d) We don't know either company's G&A or overhead rates
e) We don't know if any of the components are used in other Denon product, which would allow for economies of scale in purchasing

NB: Neither a nor b is an adequate subsitute for a detailed BOM, which we'll need if we're seeking a "nearly exact" cost estimate

And that doesn't account for proprietary parts, if any, or the amortized NRE, which will likely be a substantial % of the costs in such a product, and which we'll never know.

Look, I spent 30 years in a Fortune 100 company managing engineers of all types and educational levels, as well as assembly and test technicians and all the necessary associated disciplines in the design and manufacture (both in-house and procured) of products just like this. Quantities ranged from one or two design prototypes to many thousands in production. I spent another 8 years in Supply Chain Management. Please don't think you're going to educate me on manufacturing costs, and please don't kid me about your ability to provide "nearly exact" costs based solely upon high-res photos.
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post #114 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

When is the last time you had a PCB fabbed? 1995? Thats a really basic 4 layer board, even if you had it fabbed in the US in lots of 100 your talking like $15 max. The last 6 layer board I had fabbed with 6mil traces/spacing, 2oz copper planes, impedance control and roughly the same size was $6.50 each from our asian CM in lots of 250. Heck my US prototyping house can get me 4-layer boards that size in 4 days for $49 each in quantities as low as 4 with no setup cost.

The PCB cost in that design isn't a major factor.

Give me the name of that US house. Thanks. I'll submit an RFQ.
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Except that:
a) We don't have such a photo
b) We can't see the back side of either board
c) We don't know either company's touch-labor rates
d) We don't know either company's G&A or overhead rates
e) We don't know if any of the components are used in other Denon product, which would allow for economies of scale in purchasing

NB: Neither a nor b is an adequate subsitute for a detailed BOM, which we'll need if we're seeking a "nearly exact" cost estimate

And that doesn't account for proprietary parts, if any, or the amortized NRE, which will likely be a substantial % of the costs in such a product, and which we'll never know.

RUR, two questions for you.

1. What matters to you in the end, appearance, specs, status symbol, sound quality or something else?
2. What do you think matters to other end users, appearance, specs, status symbol, sound quality or something else?
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post #116 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Give me the name of that US house. Thanks. I'll submit an RFQ.

Prototype house i use is Sierra Proto Express they're actually a little more expensive than most but very fast and will do mil-spec and small run pick and place / reflow when needed. They're engineers are also good guys, have caught a couple minor things for me in the past that made it past DRC.

There are tons of quick turn, small run PCB fabs.

For instance these guys will make 100 boards roughly to the specs of whats in that product for $8.10 each, $200 setup fee. That seems to be roughly the ball park in cost. If your have the part fabbed and assembled at the same place the PCB costs or setup fee generally goes down.
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post #117 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Except that:
a) We don't have such a photo
b) We can't see the back side of either board
c) We don't know either company's touch-labor rates
d) We don't know either company's G&A or overhead rates
e) We don't know if any of the components are used in other Denon product, which would allow for economies of scale in purchasing

NB: Neither a nor b is an adequate subsitute for a detailed BOM, which we'll need if we're seeking a "nearly exact" cost estimate

And that doesn't account for proprietary parts, if any, or the amortized NRE, which will likely be a substantial % of the costs in such a product, and which we'll never know.

Look, I spent 30 years in a Fortune 100 company managing engineers of all types and educational levels, as well as assembly and test technicians and all the necessary associated disciplines in the design and manufacture (both in-house and procured) of products just like this. Quantities ranged from one or two design prototypes to many thousands in production. I spent another 8 years in Supply Chain Management. Please don't think you're going to educate me on manufacturing costs, and please don't kid me about your ability to provide "nearly exact" costs based solely upon high-res photos.

Your not talking about a fortune 100 company, your talking about 3 guys with a corporate address at one of their houses. Something tells me that the bureaucratic overhead isn't a substantial aspect of this products design cost.
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post #118 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

Your not talking about a fortune 100 company, your talking about 3 guys with a corporate address at one of their houses. Something tells me that the bureaucratic overhead isn't a substantial aspect of this products design cost.

All of the requirements I listed for a solid estimate apply, whether it's a Fortune 100 company or a teeny-weeny business. The size of the numbers in item "d", G&A/OH may or may not be lower, but then Fortune 100 companies have other substantial advantages in, for example, leveraged procurement.

My point remains: No one can produce a "nearly exact" costs estimate based solely upon a photo or two. Such estimates are crude, at best, and dangerous as a basis for any useful conclusions.
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post #119 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 02:02 PM
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mmiles any idea how this compares to a Bryston BDA-1 ?
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post #120 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dear.chap View Post

mmiles any idea how this compares to a Bryston BDA-1 ?

Holy Thread Hi-Jack..! Are we actually allowed to post on-topic?

I'm also interested in any more hands-on experience with the Alpha. As well as comparisons to other DACS, like the Benchmark, Bryston or even the DacMagic, for instance.
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