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post #121 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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The Bryston has an excellent reputation. However I have not listened to or installed one to comment. Bryston makes great products imho.

I hope someone takes a pic of one inside so I can have one made [especially the amps] by on of these board companies!

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post #122 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 04:40 PM
 
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I'm also interested in any more hands-on experience with the Alpha. As well as comparisons to other DACS, like the Benchmark, Bryston or even the DacMagic, for instance.

mmiles, if BA isn't the only DAC you have, how about doing a level matched blind comparison?
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post #123 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by swspiers View Post

Holy Thread Hi-Jack..! Are we actually allowed to post on-topic?

Theoretically.
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Originally Posted by swspiers View Post

I'm also interested in any more hands-on experience with the Alpha. As well as comparisons to other DACS, like the Benchmark, Bryston or even the DacMagic, for instance.

About a year ago, I did a series of comparisons between the Benchmark (non-pre version), PS Audio PWD, Weiss DAC 1, BADA and my TacT internal DAC. The BADA was the easy winner, but that's a subjective opinion. Several folks I know and respect and who have superb systems compared the BADA and Weiss and preferred the latter. Do your best to narrow down the options and then evaluate units side-by-side in your system.
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post #124 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 06:28 PM
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Do your best to narrow down the options and then evaluate units side-by-side in your system.

Or flip a coin.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #125 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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GEEK you are not drawing me in. I have listened to many systems. No not all level matched in the same room or even the same gear. I just commeting on overall sound. Now I know you will just have a field day with that.

So I ask you how many products have your compared? What is your current system configuration? Ever mix live sound? Any recording experience?

Once again I am not going to get drawn in like you did with CDL.

I attend CES [not 2011 son is getting knee surgery], CEDIA and have gone to AES. Actually I'd rather meet someone like yourself in person maybe even have a beverage and talk shop.

Ever get on the east coast near DC or Baltimore? Where are you, maybe my business travels can take me nearby.

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post #126 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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GEEK, btw that is not my quote.

My door is open. Have DAC will travel. Don't mind and a day trip or a weekend getaway if it is for the sake of learning and developing relationships as friends or even for business.

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post #127 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 07:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

No not all level matched in the same room or even the same gear.

Then there's a new venture for you to try, a level matched DBT.

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I just commeting on overall sound.

Overall sound of overall system, great. What about DAC sound alone?

Quote:


What is your current system configuration? Ever mix live sound? Any recording experience?

What relevance do those have on DAC comparison?

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Once again I am not going to get drawn in like you did with CDL.

What do you mean? Did something happen to him?
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post #128 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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GEEK, don't be a turd bro.

Your just jealous because...

My DAC is bigger that your DAC.



AV is a part time business for the most part. It is very expensive to bring in product for the sake of testing if you have not speced it for an installation. This economy does not allow for misuse of inventory dollars.

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post #129 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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What relevance do those have on DAC comparison?


Exactly my point. How do you compare products and pass the judgements you have shared?

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post #130 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 08:06 PM
 
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Exactly my point. How do you compare products and pass the judgements you have shared?

Like they did here.
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post #131 of 224 Old 12-02-2010, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Theoretically.

About a year ago, I did a series of comparisons between the Benchmark (non-pre version), PS Audio PWD, Weiss DAC 1, BADA and my TacT internal DAC. The BADA was the easy winner, but that's a subjective opinion. Several folks I know and respect and who have superb systems compared the BADA and Weiss and preferred the latter. Do your best to narrow down the options and then evaluate units side-by-side in your system.

RUR, in what way did you prefer the BADA?
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post #132 of 224 Old 12-03-2010, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Like they did here.



Was that you? What have you compared in your system?

The listening room looks really impressive

Back to your regularly scheduled programming, the BERKELEY ALPHA DAC

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post #133 of 224 Old 12-03-2010, 08:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

Was that you? What have you compared in your system?

You asked how and I showed you an example. Do you not get it? I'll bet you do but there's something else going on with you (see bottom).

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The listening room looks really impressive

And you concluded that from looking at couple photos showing only tiny portion of the room? If the test result was what you wanted to see, you wouldn't have done that, would you.

If you truly believe their listening room is something to roll your eyes on, perhaps you can improve on your DBT setup and post it online.

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Back to your regularly scheduled programming, the BERKELEY ALPHA DAC

Why won't you pursuit an objective comparison? What have you got to loose? I know, sales.
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post #134 of 224 Old 12-03-2010, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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GEEK, this is what I said a few post back... My door is open. Have DAC will travel. Don't mind and a day trip or a weekend getaway if it is for the sake of learning and developing relationships as friends or even for business.

What else do you want?

Now of course I live on the east coast about 2 1/2 hrs from Balt/Wash DC so that will limit my travels unless someone wants to pay for my time and expenses...

Mike Miles
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post #135 of 224 Old 12-03-2010, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post
RUR, in what way did you prefer the BADA?
Hi! Check your PM.
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post #136 of 224 Old 12-10-2010, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it safe to come outside and play again?

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post #137 of 224 Old 12-10-2010, 04:47 PM
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Sure!

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post #138 of 224 Old 12-10-2010, 06:05 PM
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Depends. Has it stopped raining yet and did you bring your matches?

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post #139 of 224 Old 12-11-2010, 02:43 PM
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Seriously, I'm not going to go all objective on it. Seeing as it's geared towards pro market, the price doesn't bother me much. I for one would be curious about all those filters and what specifically they do. Measurement wise, which I'm unable to do, I'd be interested in both how a simple sine wave and a square wave, when fed into the DAC, look at the outputs. That would tell me a fair amount about what's going on.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #140 of 224 Old 12-29-2010, 12:18 PM
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There are some serious tests reported in the matrixhifi site that were carried following a scientific protocol

Denon DCD-920 VS dCS Verdi-LaScala VS dCs Delius:


Results: NO differences

Berhinger UltraCurve 1 VS Benchmark DAC 1:


Results: NO differences

Nevertheless, this tests Do showed differences:

Audionote DAC3 VS Sony Discman E-775

The site is a spanish one, but I think you can use the google transtation tool

Hi, I've been told to explain how serious was that listening test. I'm the one who wrote the acoustic report and one of the testers. I was invited to that event to measure the room in which tests should be performed and that's what I did.

If you read it, there's a very funny phrase:
"plana +/-5dB usando suavizado en 1/3 de octava, lo cual es una medida bastante buena"
(flat within +/-5 dB using 1/3 octave smooothing, that is a quite good measurement) Of course it wasn't!!

Well, the FR was damn bad but that's not the point. I think the most important thing was that Noise was extremely high. The room was between another two in which they were partying and listening very loud and trying to listen to small differences was very annoying and completely impossible.

I found an e-mail in which I was told I should have said the noise was lower and I explained we asked the people near the room to shut up as we were measuring background levels and we measured while the room was empty and even making that, the noise is over a NC-40.

Scientific??

I recently discovered this:
seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-live-versus-recorded-listening.html
People will hear what you tell them to hear
Nothing more to say...

I have to agree the Benchmark sounded to me as the Behringer. Well, later I had a Behringer for few weeks and I bought a Benchmark DAC1.
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post #141 of 224 Old 12-29-2010, 07:48 PM
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Wonder how many other Matrix tests are similarly flawed.

Thanks for weighing in, Jose.
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post #142 of 224 Old 12-29-2010, 08:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Wonder how many other Matrix tests are similarly flawed.

This one probably.


Or may be this or this one? Yeah, that looks like same room.
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post #143 of 224 Old 12-29-2010, 08:48 PM
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Sorry, showing some tests conducted in another room != no other suspect tests.

Such a fundamental flaw in one test really calls into question all tests. Jose, to your knowledge, were test conditions appropriately measured for any other tests?
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post #144 of 224 Old 12-29-2010, 09:37 PM
 
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Sorry, showing some tests conducted in another room != no other suspect tests.

Such a fundamental flaw in one test really calls into question all tests. Jose, to your knowledge, were test conditions appropriately measured for any other tests?

You can try the headphone method and see what you think.
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post #145 of 224 Old 12-30-2010, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jose almagro View Post

Hi, I've been told to explain how serious was that listening test. I'm the one who wrote the acoustic report and one of the testers. I was invited to that event to measure the room in which tests should be performed and that's what I did.

If you read it, there's a very funny phrase:
"plana +/-5dB usando suavizado en 1/3 de octava, lo cual es una medida bastante buena"
(flat within +/-5 dB using 1/3 octave smooothing, that is a quite good measurement) Of course it wasn't!!

Well, the FR was damn bad but that's not the point. I think the most important thing was that Noise was extremely high. The room was between another two in which they were partying and listening very loud and trying to listen to small differences was very annoying and completely impossible.

I found an e-mail in which I was told I should have said the noise was lower and I explained we asked the people near the room to shut up as we were measuring background levels and we measured while the room was empty and even making that, the noise is over a NC-40.

Scientific??

I recently discovered this:
seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-live-versus-recorded-listening.html
“People will hear what you tell them to hear”
Nothing more to say...

I have to agree the Benchmark sounded to me as the Behringer. Well, later I had a Behringer for few weeks and I bought a Benchmark DAC1.

After being hit over the head with "The Matrix" links time and again, this is very refreshing. Thanks for giving us your time, Jose.

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." -Robert A. Heinlein
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post #146 of 224 Old 12-30-2010, 04:08 AM
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Sorry, whether it matters or not, I find the AC power distribution in the headphone test quite amusing.

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." -Robert A. Heinlein
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post #147 of 224 Old 12-30-2010, 04:26 AM
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Sorry, showing some tests conducted in another room != no other suspect tests.

Such a fundamental flaw in one test really calls into question all tests. Jose, to your knowledge, were test conditions appropriately measured for any other tests?

Well, that's a difficult question. I believe in the documents from Dr. Toole, keep in mind that I don't say "agree" because my opinion is not so strong to agree or disagree.

I want to say that my view is that the main problems are dealing with people, not conditions or material under test.

I think we've all read scientific articles about how healthy is drinking beer ... lol so my opinion is: If you want to learn: let's do a DBT, if you want to teach, please do not bother me.

Psychological aspects are also very important. Testers should feel good, should not feel they are under an exam in which they will pass or fail and they will be called stupid or deaf. Also, they shouldn't be exhausted, I remember a DBT that I was right 6 over 6 times, but it was increasingly difficult to follow because at any given time, I felt I had a mix of "sonic flavors". So the bottom line is feeling comfortable!

About technical aspects, I think the first step is measuring the differences. If it's not measurable, it's not audible. But once you measured the differences you can chose a setup to make a DBT.

Differences with DACs are always found in low levels so low noise level is a must.
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post #148 of 224 Old 12-30-2010, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Wonder how many other Matrix tests are similarly flawed.

Thanks for weighing in, Jose.

RUR, I agree. Jose has provided valuable information about Matrix tests.

IMO the test setup is not that bad. But definively the conditions are not optimal at all.
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post #149 of 224 Old 12-30-2010, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jose almagro View Post
Well, that's a difficult question. I believe in the documents from Dr. Toole, keep in mind that I don't say "agree" because my opinion is not so strong to agree or disagree.

I want to say that my view is that the main problems are dealing with people, not conditions or material under test.

I think we've all read scientific articles about how healthy is drinking beer ... lol so my opinion is: If you want to learn: let's do a DBT, if you want to teach, please do not bother me.

Psychological aspects are also very important. Testers should feel good, should not feel they are under an exam in which they will pass or fail and they will be called stupid or deaf. Also, they shouldn't be exhausted, I remember a DBT that I was right 6 over 6 times, but it was increasingly difficult to follow because at any given time, I felt I had a mix of "sonic flavors". So the bottom line is feeling comfortable!

About technical aspects, I think the first step is measuring the differences. If it's not measurable, it's not audible. But once you measured the differences you can chose a setup to make a DBT.

Differences with DACs are always found in low levels so low noise level is a must.
I just went through another extensive round of DBT-battering in another thread, so I'm not really up for a fight. However...since I stopped posting there...and started doing some Googling on my own, I've "uncovered" a couple of things.

One, I agree these test set-ups are bogus. Unless I'm listening in my room, with my music, these results can't mean much to me. A test in Spain means Spanish guys, sitting in some room, listening to some gear I've never heard of...trying to distinguish between tracks of their favorite pop star, Javier Domingo...and while that might hold weight in the universal, scientific community (after all, science is science)...I have NO frame of reference personally, so it means nothing to me.

Two; we talk about the "psychological" effects of just being tested. Again, it's not your room...what's the temp like...what's the chair like...have you ever heard this gear before. Are they keeping you there for hours? Who listens, in the "real world", to track after track after track; so when does fatigue...physical and aural...set in? I've read articles about the fallacies of DBTs, in all studies...not just audio...and just the fact that the subjects are being tested, puts them in a different frame of mind, and lends a bias to the test. In real published studies, there's a ton of information about the screening process, and how the conductors of the test went about eliminating bias; I doubt these audio DBTs do such a thing.

Which leads me to the last point I'll make, of the many I feel; I've heard that often...the subjects in the DBTs are already "believers". That is, it's conducted for "the club" (of audiophile-haters), by "the club". So they come in with a predisposition that they don't think there's a difference. And I've heard the statistical sampling is too small for reliable conclusions, and the margins for error are as high as 80% sometimes.

Again, admittedly, I am biased the other way, so I know my opinion, and the things I'm choosing to post about are slanted. But that's at least the other side represented.

CD

FOUNDER - E.S.A.C. (Eastern Shore Audio Collective)
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post #150 of 224 Old 12-30-2010, 10:09 AM
 
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...I have NO frame of reference personally, so it means nothing to me.
Except when you see things you agree with. Then it means something to you even if it came from Mars. vvv

Quote:
I've heard that often...the subjects in the DBTs are already "believers". That is, it's conducted for "the club" (of audiophile-haters), by "the club". So they come in with a predisposition that they don't think there's a difference. And I've heard the statistical sampling is too small for reliable conclusions, and the margins for error are as high as 80% sometimes.
Any facts supporting it? Or was this from R. Harley and alike?
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