Low vs mid vs high priced DACs? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 232 Old 11-20-2012, 04:04 AM
 
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So source components generally measure very well. Have a flat response and low noise.

I've heard the argument going around that distortion measurements don't consider factors like the phase response of digital filters or the result of phase shifts after the low pass filters at the upper octaves, and how this impacts on perceived quality.

Does this argument have any merit?
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post #92 of 232 Old 11-20-2012, 06:17 AM
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It doesn't have any merit as it would be revealed in DBT and it's not.
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post #93 of 232 Old 11-20-2012, 07:28 AM
 
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What is the best method of level matching source components? I'm having an interesting discussion with one EE who is a believer in source components and his reply, after I asked him whether he level matches components is :

"All digital source components are level matched, using a 1kHz sine wave, to 1V RMS analogue. The reference WAV test tone is created to be at a level of -1dB from absolute, sampled at 96kHz with 24 bit depth. Not trying to be funny but I've been doing this for a while"
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post #94 of 232 Old 11-20-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

So source components generally measure very well. Have a flat response and low noise.

A good modern CD player easily outperforms the signal generators that were used to test amplifiers and preamps back in the 1970s.


I've heard the argument going around that distortion measurements don't consider factors like the phase response of digital filters or the result of phase shifts after the low pass filters at the upper octaves, and how this impacts on perceived quality.

Does this argument have any merit?[/quote]

It has no merit because what we usually call distortion measurements are tests for nonlinear distortion which does not relate to filter response.

Frequency response, phase and group delay measurements are a different thing but are also commonly done at the same time.

Saying that distortion measurements are erroneous because they don't condsider other factors that are commonly measured in other ways is like faulting blue for not being red. ;-)
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post #95 of 232 Old 11-20-2012, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

What is the best method of level matching source components? I'm having an interesting discussion with one EE who is a believer in source components and his reply, after I asked him whether he level matches components is :

"All digital source components are level matched, using a 1kHz sine wave, to 1V RMS analogue. The reference WAV test tone is created to be at a level of -1dB from absolute, sampled at 96kHz with 24 bit depth. Not trying to be funny but I've been doing this for a while"


That would be level matching at one frequency which is highly incomplete if you are doing listening tests or technical tests using test equipment.

Back in the day when we were first doing ABX tests we measured at 20, 30, 50, 100, 500, 1000, 2000, 5000, 10000, 15000 and 20000 Hz. We used a lab signal generator for testing amps and preamps, a test record for testing cartridges, a test CD for testing CD players, and so on.
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post #96 of 232 Old 11-20-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

What is the best method of level matching source components? I'm having an interesting discussion with one EE who is a believer in source components and his reply, after I asked him whether he level matches components is :

"All digital source components are level matched, using a 1kHz sine wave, to 1V RMS analogue. The reference WAV test tone is created to be at a level of -1dB from absolute, sampled at 96kHz with 24 bit depth. Not trying to be funny but I've been doing this for a while"


That would be level matching at one frequency which is highly incomplete if you are doing listening tests or technical tests using test equipment.

Back in the day when we were first doing ABX tests we measured at 20, 30, 50, 100, 500, 1000, 2000, 5000, 10000, 15000 and 20000 Hz. We used a lab signal generator for testing amps and preamps, a test record for testing cartridges, a test CD for testing CD players, and so on.

Today with computers I can burn a CD with a test tone suite automatically generated by a freeware program called RMAA, play it back and capture the out with a PC that has a very high qualtiy audio interface in it, analyze the capture file with RMAA, and have a complete suite of technical tests done in maybe 5 minutes and no out-of-pocket expense.
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post #97 of 232 Old 11-20-2012, 04:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Who says it is just about audible differences?
I sure didn't.
I asked Brian a simple "yes" or "no" question because he appears to be lost in audiophile jungle.
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post #98 of 232 Old 11-20-2012, 10:32 PM
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Brian, do you feel that audio facts are useful when shopping for DAC?

I'm not sure I understand your question. What are "audio facts?" In any case it seems a bit off topic. If you want to start a thread entitled "What is important when shopping for a DAC?" then you all can post your opinions on that topic in that thread and leave this one alone.

B.
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post #99 of 232 Old 11-20-2012, 10:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk 
That would be level matching at one frequency which is highly incomplete if you are doing listening tests or technical tests using test equipment.

If level matching at one frequency is incomplete then how are you supposed to level match?
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post #100 of 232 Old 11-21-2012, 09:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

I'm not sure I understand your question. What are "audio facts?"
Hope this helps: (Merriam-Webster dictionary)

audio: "of or relating to acoustic, mechanical, or electrical frequencies corresponding to normally audible sound waves which are of frequencies approximately from 15 to 20,000 hertz "

fact: "a thing done", "he quality of being actual", "something that has actual existence", "a piece of information presented as having objective reality"
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In any case it seems a bit off topic. If you want to start a thread entitled "What is important when shopping for a DAC?" then you all can post your opinions on that topic in that thread and leave this one alone.
You sound like a moderator but it doesn't say so under your forum name. I don't know if English is your second language or not but it's becoming clear that you are unable to grasp what's going on here, in which case your posts should be ignored.
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post #101 of 232 Old 11-21-2012, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk 
That would be level matching at one frequency which is highly incomplete if you are doing listening tests or technical tests using test equipment.

If level matching at one frequency is incomplete then how are you supposed to level match?

Asked and answered. You run multiple frequencies spaced over the audio band so that you have some kind of assurance that 1 KHz is not the only frequency that the devices are matched.
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post #102 of 232 Old 11-21-2012, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Hope this helps: (Merriam-Webster dictionary)
audio: "of or relating to acoustic, mechanical, or electrical frequencies corresponding to normally audible sound waves which are of frequencies approximately from 15 to 20,000 hertz "
fact: "a thing done", "he quality of being actual", "something that has actual existence", "a piece of information presented as having objective reality"
You sound like a moderator but it doesn't say so under your forum name. I don't know if English is your second language or not but it's becoming clear that you are unable to grasp what's going on here, in which case your posts should be ignored.

English is my first and only language which is why I was questioning you and giving you the benefit of the doubt. I thought there were just facts. Didn't know there were special "audio facts." Are there "green" and "yellow" facts too? <--You can ignore sarcastic comment if you like.

I think I grasp what is going on here: you and a few others think they know more than other people and rather than presenting your information in a civil manner you like to intimidate, accuse and insult. And, you continue to do so. Isn't your point concise enough to be understood the first time? Why say it over and over again in 101 posts? Do you think the OP is stupid as well as ignorant?

Again, not sure why you continue to post without adding anything useful to the OP's question. I am now guilty of this too. If you have something additional and useful to say that will help the poster then why not say it instead of trying to attack other posters?

Of course you are welcome to put me on "ignore" or just ignore me the ole fashioned way.

Good luck and hope the OP is on his way with some information he found helpful.

If you are interested in my background, my interests, my sex and all sorts of other things that have nothing to do with this thread you are welcome to PM me and I will do my best to be polite and respectful in my reply. I would only hope as a user of this forum you can do the same and treat others whom you don't know with a modicum of respect in the public arena.

B.
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post #103 of 232 Old 11-21-2012, 04:55 PM
 
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I think I grasp what is going on here:
You thought wrong and here's why:
Quote:
you and a few others think they know more than other people and rather than presenting your information in a civil manner you like to intimidate, accuse and insult.
...
I would only hope as a user of this forum you can do the same and treat others whom you don't know with a modicum of respect in the public arena.
Quoting would help to validate your accusation about me but you haven't done so.

Speaking of civil manner, you have no problem with these replies, do you?
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look, your internet penis just grew one more inch.
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Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

if it turns to be what I think it to be (internet penis size issue), I'll simply admit to having a "small internet penis". no problem, I don't care.

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Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

And, you continue to do so. Isn't your point concise enough to be understood the first time? Why say it over and over again in 101 posts? Do you think the OP is stupid as well as ignorant?
You be the judge.
Quote:
Again, not sure why you continue to post without adding anything useful to the OP's question.
Did you see any dancing around and dodging of my questions by OP?
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post #104 of 232 Old 11-22-2012, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

Brian, do you feel that audio facts are useful when shopping for DAC?

What are "audio facts?"

Facts, usually scientific facts, related to audio.

I suspect that the audio facts that are being referred to are indeed scientific facts related to equipment performance versus the sensitivity of the human ear to the effects of differences in technical performance.

The traditional holy grail of audio gear particularly amplifiers and DACs is "The straight wire with gain". It is possible to set this comparison up. Many moderately priced modern amplifiers and DACs can pass this test if and only if the listening phase is done as a bias-controlled listening test.

If the test is done casually and sighted, as most audiophiles and reviewers do such tests if they even take that much trouble at all, then everything known to man is likely to fail. And that explains the contradiction between science and just about everything you read in all of the ragazines and online.
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post #105 of 232 Old 12-23-2012, 02:24 AM
 
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Speaking of DBT's, there were some published in these:

Masters, Ian G 'Do All CD Players Sound the Same?' Stereo review, Jan 1986, pg 50-57.

Pohlmann, Ken C. '6 Top CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Dec 1988, pg 76-84.

Pohlmann, Ken C. 'The New CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Oct 1990, pg 60-67.


Some of these players are OLD, but according to the DBT results the differences were audible to a statistically significant degree. And one test not published in a magazine but in a club newsletter discovered a broken digit in a 14 bit player. Today's players are much more difficult to differentiate if not impossible.
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post #106 of 232 Old 02-01-2013, 03:51 PM
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Speaking of DACs, here is an "objective" DAC : http://www.headnhifi.com/dac/odac-35mm

For the OP, I understand that this is hard to believe that all DACs sound the same, but there has been conferences and workshops about it. For example : audio myths workshop.
Audio is just a pure business. Look at the descriptions made by so called audiophile experts, they use the words they want to for anything : warm, cold, .... There is no ontology in audio so you can more or less say whatever you like to without being criticized ! I've never seen that in any of my other "hobbies" !
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post #107 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 12:06 PM
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Speaking of DACs, here is an "objective" DAC : http://www.headnhifi.com/dac/odac-35mm

For the OP, I understand that this is hard to believe that all DACs sound the same, but there has been conferences and workshops about it. For example : audio myths workshop.
Audio is just a pure business. Look at the descriptions made by so called audiophile experts, they use the words they want to for anything : warm, cold, .... There is no ontology in audio so you can more or less say whatever you like to without being criticized ! I've never seen that in any of my other "hobbies" !

Welcome to AVS
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post #108 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been reminded of this thread by someone. I don't care about continuing the so-called discussion, but here are some papers:

http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/Noise_estimating%20significance%20and%20threshold.PDF
by reading it you'll find that some things are not as obvious as you think. for instance, signals that are individually inaudible (masked) can convey significant information when added to other signals. and also other interesting things (among which a rather comprehensive sound-wave-to-cortex psychoacoustic detection and loudness model).

http://www.linearaudio.nl/interviews/Didden-Hawksford_Part2.pdf
Malcolm Hawksford interview. by reading it you'll find that the classical objective measurements can very well hide a lot of nasty stuff. and also other interesting things. oh, almost forgot, he says a few things about your much-mentioned DBT too.

have fun in any attempt to debunk the above, I'm sure it'll help you become a better person smile.gif
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post #109 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gn77b View Post

I've been reminded of this thread by someone. I don't care about continuing the so-called discussion, but here are some papers:

http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/Noise_estimating%20significance%20and%20threshold.PDF
by reading it you'll find that some things are not as obvious as you think. for instance, signals that are individually inaudible (masked) can convey significant information when added to other signals. and also other interesting things (among which a rather comprehensive sound-wave-to-cortex psychoacoustic detection and loudness model).

http://www.linearaudio.nl/interviews/Didden-Hawksford_Part2.pdf
Malcolm Hawksford interview. by reading it you'll find that the classical objective measurements can very well hide a lot of nasty stuff. and also other interesting things. oh, almost forgot, he says a few things about your much-mentioned DBT too.

have fun in any attempt to debunk the above, I'm sure it'll help you become a better person smile.gif

What conclusions do you find in these papers?

How do they relate to the OP?
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post #110 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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What conclusions do you find in these papers?

How do they relate to the OP?
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I don't care about continuing the so-called discussion

oh, and: http://www.meridian.co.uk/ara/coding2.pdf
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post #111 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 03:21 PM
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Cool, links and opinions from manufacturers. You've convinced me.

Now if you just put up a few links to cable manufacturer white papers, there will be no more debate on that either. Peace at last.
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post #112 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool, links and opinions from manufacturers. You've convinced me.

Now if you just put up a few links to cable manufacturer white papers, there will be no more debate on that either. Peace at last.
once again, you forgot that I never mentioned any intention of convincing anyone smile.gif you demanded it but there is no law, moral or of other type that can force me to provide you with whatever proof you require.
but, nevertheless, I agree with you: I too admire Bob Stuart's effort to manufacture a long-winded falsified argument in order to sell his gear. I should only be grateful that there's good people like you to raise the awareness. establishing an automatic connection between financial interests and lack of scientific value is just another fallacy in the long list found in this thread. especially when you probably didn't even bother to read any of those papers. pointing to exact errors would be a start.
I'm glad I helped you find your peace. keep the vigilance awake, warriors!

PS: Malcolm H. says a few things about cables too. but there's no subliminal "buy expensive cables from me" message. quite the contrary.
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post #113 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 03:57 PM
 
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http://www.meridian.co.uk/ara/coding2.pdf
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especially when you probably didn't even bother to read any of those papers.
I suppose you've read all of them. Did you understand what you've read?
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post #114 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 03:58 PM
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have fun in any attempt to debunk the above, I'm sure it'll help you become a better person smile.gif

Those links have been discussed & dissected many times before, particularly the first. You're not dropping some new information here. I'll agree it's up to each person to decide for themselves what constitutes good evidence and relevancy of argument.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #115 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I suppose you've read all of them. Did you understand what you've read?
no. it's just that those plots really impressed me. I don't pretend to be able to understand the PhD-level math involved, just trying to impress. looks like I failed.
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Those links have been discussed & dissected many times before, particularly the first. You're not dropping some new information here.
again, where is the part where I said that I'm going to bring new, ground-breaking info? smile.gif
linking to the place where those have been discussed may be useful to the objectivist herd ho that they can go to sleep assured that they have the best DAC in the world. I personally don't care, and since I never showed any interest of answering your demands, it's up to you if you wanna post the debunking smile.gif

PS: what's really funny is that some of you (not all) seem to think that I'm willing to bite and engage in a "logical" discussion, whereas this thread is nothing but a lesson in fallacy and sophism from your part smile.gif

PS2: oh, and to diorama: in all my years on the web, you're unique in a way. I think I'll award you 1st prize for the "desperately tries to prove a point although there's nothing to gain from it" category. congrats! smile.gif
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post #116 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 04:58 PM
 
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no. it's just that those plots really impressed me. I don't pretend to be able to understand the PhD-level math involved, just trying to impress. looks like I failed.
again, where is the part where I said that I'm going to bring new, ground-breaking info? smile.gif
linking to the place where those have been discussed may be useful to the objectivist herd ho that they can go to sleep assured that they have the best DAC in the world. I personally don't care, and since I never showed any interest of answering your demands, it's up to you if you wanna post the debunking smile.gif

PS: what's really funny is that some of you (not all) seem to think that I'm willing to bite and engage in a "logical" discussion, whereas this thread is nothing but a lesson in fallacy and sophism from your part smile.gif

PS2: oh, and to diorama: in all my years on the web, you're unique in a way. I think I'll award you 1st prize for the "desperately tries to prove a point although there's nothing to gain from it" category. congrats! smile.gif
I appears that you are not happy with this forum.
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post #117 of 232 Old 02-02-2013, 05:59 PM
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22:00 minutes and on in this talk is quite interesting...

http://youtu.be/1CkyrDIGzOE
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post #118 of 232 Old 02-03-2013, 04:50 AM
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22:00 minutes and on in this talk is quite interesting...

http://youtu.be/1CkyrDIGzOE

This paper has been discussed on another forum I visit.

I had heard quite enough science fiction by the time I got about 10 minutes in. ;-)

This video should have a description that says something about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

However, I decided to take your comment seriously, and found that in the 20:00-22:00 range he is actually making some sense.

However, he starts inventing science again right around 22:50.

Oh, well!
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post #119 of 232 Old 02-03-2013, 09:04 AM
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Hey rough playground here. The headline brought me in. So can I ask a question since all DAC's are the same, except for the ones that have something wrong with them. Can some one direct me to ones that are least expensive and have been proven not to have something wrong with them? I'll worry about aesthetics, cool case materials, fit and finish after I have a short list. Thanks, Or is the list of those to avoid shorter?

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post #120 of 232 Old 02-03-2013, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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one almost perfectly measuring DAC that is very cheap is the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II. it's $300 or so if memory servers me well.
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