Does a burned CD-R really sound "better" than its original CD? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 12-19-2012, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright guys, this is something that I've been seeing a lot of recently. Some audiophiles claim that taking a plain CD and ripping the music to a CD-R somehow reduces jitter and thus the copy sounds warmer or "better" than the original CD. I don't have any CD-Rs on me and don't recall ever noticing this when I made copies. Is there any documentation or proof for this?
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post #2 of 25 Old 12-19-2012, 10:48 PM
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No.
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post #3 of 25 Old 12-19-2012, 10:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumbtackJack View Post

Is there any documentation or proof for this?
That's exactly the question you should have asked those audiophiles who claimed such thing.

By the way, which site was it?
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post #4 of 25 Old 12-20-2012, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumbtackJack View Post

Alright guys, this is something that I've been seeing a lot of recently. Some audiophiles claim that taking a plain CD and ripping the music to a CD-R somehow reduces jitter and thus the copy sounds warmer or "better" than the original CD.

Balderdash as stated.

What I can tell you that is true is that if you have a somewhat scratched up CD that doesn't play well on your CD player, there is a fair chance that ripping it and burning a copy will give you something that will play well on the same CD player.
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I don't have any CD-Rs on me and don't recall ever noticing this when I made copies. Is there any documentation or proof for this?

First off, jitter is the audiophile boogeyman of recent times. It seems like every audiophile worries about having jitter in his system. Some think they can even hear jitter go "Boomp!" in the night. ;-)

One of the major purposes of a CD player is to remove jitter from the playback of the CD.

Because of the microscopic but still significant off-centeredness and minor warps in a CD, the signal that comes off of the laser pickup looks like #&!! and is guaranteed to be full of jtter. This is fed into a small (by modern standards) buffer and clocked out by a local stable clock that sets the pace for the whole operation. Poof! negligable jitter and no audible jitter at all.

So, how can ripping a damaged CD and reburning it make it work better? One of the big differences between playing a CD on a CD player and ripping it is that CD players don't retry reading damaged tracks, but a good burning program does. Many burning programs intercept an internal signal in the CD ROM that says that the track had nonrecoverable errors. They then retry reading the track looking for consistent results. The nature of damaged tracks is that at least occasionally they will be read right. When they are read wrong there are nearly an infinite number of possible errors, but then they are by chance read right, there is consistency. Therefore it is a good guess that any consistent results are also correct.
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post #5 of 25 Old 12-20-2012, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

That's exactly the question you should have asked those audiophiles who claimed such thing.
By the way, which site was it?

Here is the precise thread http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1354371062&openusid&zzGeoffkait&4&5

I could have asked them, but I know separating the myth from reality is AVS's forte. biggrin.gif
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post #6 of 25 Old 12-20-2012, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Balderdash as stated.
What I can tell you that is true is that if you have a somewhat scratched up CD that doesn't play well on your CD player, there is a fair chance that ripping it and burning a copy will give you something that will play well on the same CD player.
First off, jitter is the audiophile boogeyman of recent times. It seems like every audiophile worries about having jitter in his system. Some think they can even hear jitter go "Boomp!" in the night. ;-)

Thanks Arn. Maybe they're just tired of seeing all the silver discs! Gold cd-r's look really nice so it must automatically make them audibly superior, too. wink.gif
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post #7 of 25 Old 12-20-2012, 09:54 AM
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Here is the precise thread http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1354371062&openusid&zzGeoffkait&4&5

I could have asked them, but I know separating the myth from reality is AVS's forte.
Actually, there was no need to even ask. Any URL with the phrase "Geoffkait" in it is presumptively fiction.

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post #8 of 25 Old 12-20-2012, 09:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ThumbtackJack View Post

Here is the precise thread http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1354371062&openusid&zzGeoffkait&4&5

I could have asked them, but I
Then you shouldn't waste your time on forums like that.
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post #9 of 25 Old 12-20-2012, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumbtackJack View Post

Here is the precise thread http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1354371062&openusid&zzGeoffkait&4&5
I could have asked them, but I know separating the myth from reality is AVS's forte. biggrin.gif

I don't know whether to laugh or cry after reading that thread. What a train wreck.
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post #10 of 25 Old 01-22-2013, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I don't know whether to laugh or cry after reading that thread. What a train wreck.

I attempted to read it after your review, but admittedly, could not stand it for very long. Seriously? I have a photocopy of J Lo's bumm, but no amount of recopying can make it look any better! Perhaps if just had better jitter correction.....
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post #11 of 25 Old 01-23-2013, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumbtackJack View Post

Alright guys, this is something that I've been seeing a lot of recently. Some audiophiles claim that taking a plain CD and ripping the music to a CD-R somehow reduces jitter and thus the copy sounds warmer or "better" than the original CD. I don't have any CD-Rs on me and don't recall ever noticing this when I made copies. Is there any documentation or proof for this?

It only makes a noticalble difference when a green marker is used in conjunction with the CD-R disk. tongue.gif

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
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post #12 of 25 Old 01-27-2013, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

It only makes a noticalble difference when a green marker is used in conjunction with the CD-R disk. tongue.gif
A "Black" CD-R disck wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #13 of 25 Old 06-07-2013, 09:13 PM
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The only way i can think of that a burned CD-R can sound 'better' (or more commonly different to some ears), might be due to any volume leveling or dynamic range changes that the particular burning program might be set to apply...........
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post #14 of 25 Old 06-08-2013, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumbtackJack View Post

Alright guys, this is something that I've been seeing a lot of recently. Some audiophiles claim that taking a plain CD and ripping the music to a CD-R somehow reduces jitter and thus the copy sounds warmer or "better" than the original CD. I don't have any CD-Rs on me and don't recall ever noticing this when I made copies. Is there any documentation or proof for this?

It is highly unlikely that a commercial CD has audible jitter - the gear used to make them is generally free of audible jitter.

It is possible that a CD will become physically damaged, and that ripping it and burning a new copy will correct the damage. I've done with with some of my kid's CDs. This can happen because some ripping software will use additional retries to finally obtain correct data.
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post #15 of 25 Old 06-09-2013, 04:58 AM
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You guys just can't hear the jitter because your systems aren't resolving enough, duh.

When life gives you lemons, punch life in the nuts. -me-
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post #16 of 25 Old 06-09-2013, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyrlyfrm View Post

You guys just can't hear the jitter because your systems aren't resolving enough, duh.

Easy enough to say, particularly since you can provide all of our equipment lists.

Reality is that audible jitter in good digital equipment is usually an audiophile myth boogey man. Just for grins, what does jitter actually sound like?
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post #17 of 25 Old 06-09-2013, 07:08 AM
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^^^ Good question. I'd be more inclined to believe that brains haven't resolved enough to realize it isn't an issue. Outside of those who simply must spend money chasing ghosts, of course.

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post #18 of 25 Old 06-09-2013, 08:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post

brains haven't resolved enough to realize it isn't an issue.
But to those that have been brainwashed by salesman (like the one who posts a lot on this forum), it's the systems that aren't resolving enough.
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post #19 of 25 Old 06-09-2013, 08:44 AM
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lol srsly? Smack whoever told you that, maybe a "warm" amp or "warm" headphones will change the sound but copying something over is only guranteed to make things slightly worse, too minimal to notice but still worse.

Be careful on that site, people dress up pet rocks and sell them for $200 to "balance your chi" for "better listening" rolleyes.gif

^^^^ I'd guess that guy is joking

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post #20 of 25 Old 06-09-2013, 04:10 PM
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^Yup, pretty sure he was joking

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post #21 of 25 Old 06-10-2013, 02:40 PM
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You'll need to copy the disc to a black CD-R with green-pen surrounding it and don't forget to freeze the disc and demagnetize it before each playback.

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post #22 of 25 Old 06-10-2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Just for grins, what does jitter actually sound like?
Maybe you can read some technical materials published by Phillips, Sony, Analog Devices, Burr Brown and found out for once.
Or here: http://www.jitter.de/english/soundfr.html
You keep saying that everything 'sounds the same'... maybe it's time for you to really listen carefully. Or, if your hearing is damaged, stop assuming that everyone else has the same problems.
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post #23 of 25 Old 06-10-2013, 08:31 PM
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The only way it can sound better (or worse in most cases) is to tweak the tracks with 3rd party editing software like soundforge. Other than than, the bits of information you rip from a cd are the same exact bits being burned back to another cd. So it is a literal impossibility for it to sound any different, and furthermore, its also impossible for a cd of any music genre to sound 'warm'.
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post #24 of 25 Old 06-11-2013, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Just for grins, what does jitter actually sound like?
Maybe you can read some technical materials published by Phillips, Sony, Analog Devices, Burr Brown and found out for once.

Been there done that, sometimes dozen of times, sometimes going back decades.

If you think that it supports the idea that there are wdespread auudible differences amoung good digital audio gear, it would be you who needs to read up and understand things better.

I see no evidence of any proper listening tests. The evaluations appear to be sighted, non-time synched, non level matched, etc.

Furthermore, the article does not seem to make a clear statement about what jitter sounds like - it just quotes some poetry.
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You keep saying that everything 'sounds the same'...

Not really. I say that good digital audio gear strongly tends to sound the same. That's based on just a tad less than 30 years of experience, including numerous carefully done listening tests.
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maybe it's time for you to really listen carefully.

Doctor, cure thyself!
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Or, if your hearing is damaged, stop assuming that everyone else has the same problems.

In general it is not possible to do a proper listening test of good digital gear that has a positive outcome for audible differences. If you study the technical literature of audio, as opposed to audiophile fluff pieces, you will find that this has been the general outcome for decades.

No way is my hearing as good as it was say a decade ago, but even in that ancient state of the art, the rule was the the jitter in good equipment was not audible to anybody in a well-run listening test.

For example:

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1974-11.pdf

Please note section 6 "Conclusions".

The amounts of jitter found to be audible are huge compared to modern equipment.
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post #25 of 25 Old 06-11-2013, 02:35 PM
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I figured that including "duh" in my statement would make the joke pretty obvious seeing as it's a 5 yr old's equivalent of QED. I guess I should be more careful when talking about jitter since the fate of the world is at stake here. Or I could just call someone a poopy-head.

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