Is this a good plan for consolidating my CD collection??? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 47 Old 03-29-2013, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post


Skimp enough on any component, and it will sound worse than a better version.
I've been saying that for years, for any piece of gear including amps.
Quality processing and/or amplification from quality parts/circuits = Quality out.
crap in = crap out.

Yes, that's true. If you skimp enough, there will be audible differences. Those differences will also be easily measurable, and that means that they would fail spec at any company worth its name.

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post #32 of 47 Old 03-29-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Huh. At my last place of employment, I had access to hundreds of thousands of $$ worth, if not millions of $$ worth, of audio and video equipment....including CD players, DVD players, MPEG2 streamers, MPEG4 streamers, Dolby AC-3 encoders, AVRs, and more test equipment than I could count.

I used to think my "high end" CD player sounded better too. Then one day I did a blinded, level-matched comparison between it and a $40 DVD player, both playing the same CD and time-synced.

I couldn't tell them apart. My lab measuring equipment could, but the differences were totally insignificant - meaning nobody would hear the differences.

So much for your theory, eh?

And I made the statement that I did not think it was necessary to go high end, that I was quite happy with Parasound gear. And there are many brands much more expensive. But I guess you missed that.

I have never had a high end CD player. And I forget what the Sony cost, maybe $100 (20 years ago) but at no time did I think it was much good. Or the CDs for that matter. Not until I listened to the CDs through the Denon multi-disc player. And the Denon was not all that much money either, certainly NOT high end. So at no time have I compared a high end player to something dirt cheap. And yet there was a difference in the HF. The Sony was just plain harsh, And as a result never bought many CDs. And rarely ever listened to them.
Now I find myself listening to CDs much, much more than 20 years ago.
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post #33 of 47 Old 03-29-2013, 06:22 PM
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I have a theory about these people who like to shout that all dac, amps are the same....they are cheap!
No, it's not that we're cheap.

It's that we're not suckers.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #34 of 47 Old 03-29-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

No, it's not that we're cheap.

It's that we're not suckers.
But I'm not the one who has claimed to have bought High End Gear, either
It would appear the sucker was beaveav with his high end CD player.
And I would guess it cost more than any piece of gear I have ever bought.
But I do know that my cheap Sony sounded like crap.
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post #35 of 47 Old 03-29-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

You mention that maybe the Sony had a poorly built dac....that may have been true...But there would be no way of knowing that when deciding between one CD player or another.

That is an odd reversal of opinion given your previous hard-nosed stance. In post after post you were emphatic in attributing the difference in audio quality between the Sony and Denon disc players due to DAC design; yet, provided no information as to DAC specifications and component features in any meaningful and measurable method... Not even a mention of the make/model of each DAC, much less the make/model of the components.

How were you able to arrive at your pinpointed conclusion concerning DAC relevance?!?

Clearly, you have no idea of DAC design and implementation (only price difference), but seem to think its okay to give advice. I don't get it.
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post #36 of 47 Old 03-30-2013, 06:37 AM
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You guys are great, you can take a legitimate question like how do I consolidate my CD collection and within 10 posts you are back to any one of several old, tired topics that have been discussed over multiple threads and beat to death-

All wire sounds the same
All amps sound the same
All DACs sound the same

Boring!

Norm
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post #37 of 47 Old 03-30-2013, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by UndersAVS View Post

How were you able to arrive at your pinpointed conclusion concerning DAC relevance?!?

Clearly, you have no idea of DAC design and implementation (only price difference), but seem to think its okay to give advice. I don't get it.
I suppose any ole dac would be acceptable if you overlook the major problem of digital audio...timing errors.
From what I have ever read not all DACs handle that problem equally. And that is even more of a problem today with people using a computer for a source device.
For myself, I would prefer having a DAC that was Asynchronous mode than one that was Adaptive mode. And preferred having two discrete on-board clocks, so to be optimized to handle any native sampling rate.
And to date, I don't remember seeing a $25~30 DAC that was Asynchronous mode.

To be clear...I would never entertain the idea of buying say, a $1000~7000 DAC, like ones I've seen advertised on Amazon.
But the other side of that coin is I am quite certain I would want a DAC a bit better than a $25 Adaptive mode.
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post #38 of 47 Old 03-30-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by NormP View Post

You guys are great, you can take a legitimate question like how do I consolidate my CD collection and within 10 posts you are back to any one of several old, tired topics that have been discussed over multiple threads and beat to death-

All wire sounds the same
All amps sound the same
All DACs sound the same

Boring!

You're surprised by this? biggrin.gif



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post #39 of 47 Old 03-30-2013, 09:59 AM
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I suppose any ole dac would be acceptable if you overlook the major problem of digital audio...timing errors.
Ah, the last refuge of the science-challenged.
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From what I have ever read not all DACs handle that problem equally. And that is even more of a problem today with people using a computer for a source device.
For myself, I would prefer having a DAC that was Asynchronous mode than one that was Adaptive mode. And preferred having two discrete on-board clocks, so to be optimized to handle any native sampling rate.
And to date, I don't remember seeing a $25~30 DAC that was Asynchronous mode.

To be clear...I would never entertain the idea of buying say, a $1000~7000 DAC, like ones I've seen advertised on Amazon.
But the other side of that coin is I am quite certain I would want a DAC a bit better than a $25 Adaptive mode.
Well, the first time someone demonstrates in a properly controlled test that they can differentiate between those two kinds of DACs, I'll concede your point.

But I'm not too worried.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #40 of 47 Old 03-30-2013, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Ah, the last refuge of the science-challenged.
Well, the first time someone demonstrates in a properly controlled test that they can differentiate between those two kinds of DACs, I'll concede your point.

Well, if you are so sure there are no differences, then why don't you conduct the test yourself?
Maybe you can't, cause you are science-challenged? Its been a known problem for years that of timing errors.
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post #41 of 47 Old 03-30-2013, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

But I'm not the one who has claimed to have bought High End Gear, either
It would appear the sucker was beaveav with his high end CD player.
And I would guess it cost more than any piece of gear I have ever bought.
But I do know that my cheap Sony sounded like crap.

Bwahahaha, yeah, I'm the sucker.

The CD player cost me $80.

And I once got a Parasound amp for free.

It was nice working at a large A/V company and getting free or almost-free toys to take home and try out.

I think it was pointed out to you earlier that your Sony very well may have sounded like crap. Maybe it was a crappy design, maybe it was defective. 20 years ago I had a couple of cheap CD players (an Onkyo and a Sony and a Technics) and I was pretty sure there were real differences among them, sound quality-wise.

Things have changed in 20 years. The exceptions back then are even more rare now, one would think.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #42 of 47 Old 03-30-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I suppose any ole dac would be acceptable if you overlook the major problem of digital audio...timing errors.
From what I have ever read not all DACs handle that problem equally. And that is even more of a problem today with people using a computer for a source device.
For myself, I would prefer having a DAC that was Asynchronous mode than one that was Adaptive mode. And preferred having two discrete on-board clocks, so to be optimized to handle any native sampling rate.
And to date, I don't remember seeing a $25~30 DAC that was Asynchronous mode.

To be clear...I would never entertain the idea of buying say, a $1000~7000 DAC, like ones I've seen advertised on Amazon.
But the other side of that coin is I am quite certain I would want a DAC a bit better than a $25 Adaptive mode.

Some work I did on jitter/timing errors and their effects on a certain DAC topology was mentioned once in EE Times.

That was 1997 I think.

Things have gotten better since then, and even then it took a really really cheap DAC and really really bad jitter to make a meaningful difference.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #43 of 47 Old 03-30-2013, 01:25 PM
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Well, if you are so sure there are no differences, then why don't you conduct the test yourself?
Couple of reasons:

1) I'm not the one whose views are challenging accepted science. You know, the stuff they put in the college textbooks.

2) Given what I already know, it would be utterly fruitless for me to conduct such a test, because it wouldn't prove anything. I could test a hundred different DACs, and the audiophool trolls would still insist there were others that really did sound different. Whereas someone of your persuasion would only need to find a handful of DACs that sounded different to shut me up for good.

This is why the burden of proof rests on your side, not mine.
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Maybe you can't, cause you are science-challenged?
This from the guy with the shaky grasp of the concept of burden of proof.
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Its been a known problem for years that of timing errors.
It's been known for half a century. But it's also been known for a while that timing errors in even the cheapest DACs almost never exceed the threshold of audibility.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #44 of 47 Old 03-30-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Ah, the last refuge of the science-challenged.
Well, the first time someone demonstrates in a properly controlled test that they can differentiate between those two kinds of DACs, I'll concede your point.

Well, if you are so sure there are no differences, then why don't you conduct the test yourself?

Because whenever a person says "I doubt that it will be heard" and does a test with that outcome, they will be criticized for not trying hard enough because after all they said "I doubt that it will be heard" .

There is no evidence that asynchronous DACs were ever designed to solve an audible problem.

It is known for sure that even fairly inexpensive non-asynchronous USB DACs are sonically transparent and will pass a straight wire bypass test.

Here's a <$30 USB ADC/DAC pair that passes blind listening tests: Behringer UCA 202. Prove me wrong!

Here is the frequency response and dynamic range test data from a USB DAC that cost me $6.95. Doesn't sound too bad:

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB: +0.19, -0.66 Good
Noise level, dB (A): -74.0 Average
Dynamic range, dB (A): 74.4 Average
THD, %: 0.050 Good






It's about 20 dB worse than the UCA 202 - I think it might have some audible artifacts, just barely.
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post #45 of 47 Old 03-31-2013, 03:45 AM
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I don’t think file format is very important as long as it is lossless.
You can always convert from one format to another without loss.

Personally I prefer FLAC
Lossless
Excellent tagging support including storing cover art
Allows to store custom tags in the file
Checksum stored in the file. This allows you to verify if the audio is corrupted
Wide support on Win, OSX, Linux, Android.
Downloads are often available in FLAC

Downside, Microsoft and Apple don’t support it natively.
Therefore I don’t recommend media player like iTunes or WMP.
They are a bit limited in the use of file formats and support of audio drivers.

Have a good look at Foobar, MusicBee or my personal favorite JRiver Media Center.

If you want to experiment with other drivers than DS e.g. WASAPI a media player allowing you to do so is a must.

Ripping
I prefer dBpoweramp.
Excellent meta data and it supports accurate rip. This allows you to verify the correctness of the rip.

DAC.
Look for asynchronous USB.
It beats adaptive mode USB in the jitter department.
Almost all new models today come with 24/192 async USB.
If you want automatic sample rate switching, a media player supporting WASAPI is a must.
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post #46 of 47 Old 04-01-2013, 01:31 PM
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The test means only that YOU cannot tell them apart, it means nothing for HIS perception.
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post #47 of 47 Old 04-02-2013, 01:51 PM
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The test means only that YOU cannot tell them apart, it means nothing for HIS perception.

That's why he needs to do the DBT, not one of us.
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