Super Audio CD players w/DSD out? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 38 Old 07-30-2013, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I currently have a Denon DVD-1920 which... I actually know nothing about. (picked up very recently for peanuts seeing that it was an SACD capable player) I should also mention it's missing a remote so if there's config menus somewhere I have no way of accessing them currently without a replacement...

Apparently the top quality possible is DSD from a SACD player, to a receiver that accepts DSD in and goes straight to analog with no additional conversion.

I saw this list http://www.avsforum.com/t/1230824/list-of-av-receivers-pre-pros-with-pure-dsd-to-analog-processing of receivers, but I wasn't sure whether DSD out is something commonly, sometimes, or rarely supported by SACD capable players. To be honest i'm not even sure fully how it works. : P The receiver article lists "HDMI, i.LINK or DENON Link" - my player has HDMI, does that mean a DSD stream can go out there without reconversion? I'm not sure what i-LINK and DENON Link are but I don't think I have either of them because there's no specialized jacks on the back suggesting such.

For that matter can a playstation 3 output a digital DSD signal via HDMI, and are the newer ones still SACD compatible or just the early ones? (I don't have a PS3 yet, but I will eventually)
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post #2 of 38 Old 07-30-2013, 03:09 AM
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HDMI is required for DSD output on most DSD capable players. Otherwise, the signal is carried via 5.1 analog.

Only the older"fat" models of the PS3 are SACD capable and do not output DSD; the signal is converted to hi-rez PCM.

Some DSD compatible AVRs actually convert to PCM, anyway.
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post #3 of 38 Old 07-30-2013, 01:27 PM
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Denon Link 3rd Edition allows to send native DSD to the Denon receiver.
DVD-1920 does not have that digital link. However, this feature is over-rated, usually the analog outputs of SACD player (like the 1930) are at the same quality level as receiver's internal DAC's.
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post #4 of 38 Old 07-31-2013, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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You mentioned analog outputs of the 1930 but i've the 1920, are mine equally likely as good? smile.gif

So how many people can hear a difference between SACD and normal CD 'downmix' (or a receiver forced 44.1/16 resample) anyways? I would imagine most differences to be subtle for 2 channel and most of the benefit to be multichannel, or recordings only released SACD and not on DVDA.
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post #5 of 38 Old 08-01-2013, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homeomnimax View Post


So how many people can hear a difference between SACD and normal CD 'downmix' (or a receiver forced 44.1/16 resample) anyways?

Any proper comparison of DSD and comparable PCM is guaranteed to provide a "No aucible differences" result.

Comparing different downmixes may or may not involve an apples-to-apples comparison.

One of the tricks that the recording industry played was remastering most SACD releases. Differently mastered versions of the same recording are pretty much guaranteed to sound different, whether on the same media format or a different one. Let's put it this way, if a remastering effort does not sound different the mastering engineer ripped off the producer.
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post #6 of 38 Old 08-02-2013, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homeomnimax View Post

I currently have a Denon DVD-1920 which... I actually know nothing about. (picked up very recently for peanuts

It may be useful to know that you can download the PDF owner's manual for this player (and other Denon components going back at least 10 years) from the Denon web site. (Other consumer electronics manufacturers also post PDF manuals on their sites.) Use the link below, click the "Search by text" button, then enter "DVD-1920" in the "Enter your product name box", then click "SUBMIT".

http://usa.denon.com/us/downloads/pages/instructionmanual.aspx

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I should also mention it's missing a remote so if there's config menus somewhere I have no way of accessing them currently without a replacement...

So it's pretty much a "brick" now, without the remote. One possibility is to contact Denon and ask if they sell the remote for this player. (From the manual, the remote model number is RC-1017.) If not, or if Denon wants too much for the remote, you could instead consider a Logitech Harmony remote, that would download the control functions for this player from the extensive on-line database of Harmony compatible components.

More about this player and SACD: as others have indicated, you need to use the analog audio outs, specifically the 5.1 channel analog outs to listen to multichannel SACDs. Then, of course, you need a receiver or processor with 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs. Most receivers or processors do not do any processing of audio received on the multichannel analog inputs (only the Master Volume control works, nothing else has any effect). So you will need to use the speaker setup functions in the player: level, distance compensation, and bass management (which has fixed crossover frequency of 100 Hz) if your system has a subwoofer.

In my opinion, if you have a "modern" receiver or processor with HDMI audio, a better and reasonably-priced alternative for SACD playback is a recent-model Sony Blu-ray player. Most recent Sony players, even the entry-level ones, provide two-channel and multi-channel SACD audio over HDMI, with a choice of DSD or PCM format.
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post #8 of 38 Old 08-02-2013, 11:48 PM
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^
good tip about finding the remote on e-bay
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post #9 of 38 Old 08-25-2013, 04:35 PM
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The Sony SCD-XA5400ES outputs DSD via HDMI. Of course, what your AVR or pre-pro does with it is another story! Audyssey room correction software will convert DSD to PCM, for instance.

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post #10 of 38 Old 08-26-2013, 03:19 AM
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Activating the bass management (speakers 'small' and routing bass to subwoofer) will do that too.
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post #11 of 38 Old 08-26-2013, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Activating the bass management (speakers 'small' and routing bass to subwoofer) will do that too.

Avoiding your AVR's bass management and system optimization features to preserve SACD's DSD is a clear cut case of throwing the baby out to save the dishwater.
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post #12 of 38 Old 08-26-2013, 04:39 PM
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I don't need bass management, my speakers are full size, as they should be. And my sub is used just for what is supposed to be - the LFE channel.
Room 'optimization' in my experience is not yet usable. Better to treat the room against echoes and sit in the true "sweet spot" instead of adjusting the delays from speakers.

BTW: I know that your opinion is that SACD has nothing special compared to CD. Some people disagree and are trying to avoid down-sampling to 48kHz PCM just for "system optimization".
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post #13 of 38 Old 08-27-2013, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

I don't need bass management, my speakers are full size, as they should be.

Name a full size speaker that can be even just mentioned in the same breath as a decent mid-priced subwoofer.
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And my sub is used just for what is supposed to be - the LFE channel.

That means that your system is probably cutting of the bass in the 40 Hz range for L & R.
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Room 'optimization' in my experience is not yet usable. Better to treat the room against echoes and sit in the true "sweet spot" instead of adjusting the delays from speakers.

You may misunderstand the true purpose of tools such as Audyssey, probably because they are somewhat mismarketed. Their purpose is to correct the overall response of the entire system, not just the room.
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BTW: I know that your opinion is that SACD has nothing special compared to CD.

That is not a personal opinion, that is science. The idea that PCM should be avoided is an audiophile myth.
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Some people disagree and are trying to avoid down-sampling to 48kHz PCM just for "system optimization".

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post #14 of 38 Old 08-27-2013, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Name a full size speaker that can be even just mentioned in the same breath as a decent mid-priced subwoofer.
That means that your system is probably cutting of the bass in the 40 Hz range for L & R.
You may misunderstand the true purpose of tools such as Audyssey, probably because they are somewhat mismarketed. Their purpose is to correct the overall response of the entire system, not just the room.
That is not a personal opinion, that is science. The idea that PCM should be avoided is an audiophile myth.
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Prefer to have 'only' 35Hz trough my speakers, like the recording engineer intended than to smash the below 120Hz L-R signal into one subwoofer that was not even designed for that. Especially if your room is small, there is no need to worry about bass, it just won't happen.
If the program is stereo only, I use headphones anyway...
As for Audyssey, you can keep believing that it will correct the 'whole system'. I heard different.
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post #15 of 38 Old 08-27-2013, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Especially if your room is small, there is no need to worry about bass, it just won't happen.
If the program is stereo only, I use headphones anyway...

By the same reasoning, when using headphones, only sound waves with wavelengths smaller than about 2 inches can be generated, because of the approximately 2 inch maximum extent of the spaces between the "cans" and your ears. In other words, with headphones, you can only hear sounds in the highest two octaves of human hearing - basically just "overtones", not even the fundamental tones of flutes or violins - according to your reasoning. Conclusion - you can't hear music with headphones!

Fortunately, this reasoning is wrong! (I have a few "cans" for music listening, so plainly I don't believe it.) Headphones and small rooms don't work like that in practice.

Consider the following: physically, sound waves are space and time dependent variations in air pressure (which is closely related to the local density, or number per unit volume, of air molecules). If we consider the "limiting case" of a long-wavelength sound wave, at which the wavelength approaches infinity and the frequency approaches zero, that describes a static change in air pressure. If static changes in air pressure can occur in a small room, than so can long-wavelength sound waves. So you only need a barometer - an instrument that measures air pressure - to convince yourself that deep bass can exist in a small room.
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post #16 of 38 Old 08-27-2013, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Prefer to have 'only' 35Hz trough my speakers, like the recording engineer intended than to smash the below 120Hz L-R signal into one subwoofer that was not even designed for that. Especially if your room is small, there is no need to worry about bass, it just won't happen.
If the program is stereo only, I use headphones anyway...
As for Audyssey, you can keep believing that it will correct the 'whole system'. I heard different.

Why just one subwoofer? Why not two or more, as is usually recommended by those who know?

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post #17 of 38 Old 08-27-2013, 04:49 PM
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Because LFE is used just in movies, one it's enough. And my wife, like most females, hates the sounds below 40-50Hz anyway.
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post #18 of 38 Old 08-27-2013, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic icons View Post

By the same reasoning, when using headphones, only sound waves with wavelengths smaller than about 2 inches can be generated, because of the approximately 2 inch maximum extent of the spaces between the "cans" and your ears. In other words, with headphones, you can only hear sounds in the highest two octaves of human hearing - basically just "overtones", not even the fundamental tones of flutes or violins - according to your reasoning. Conclusion - you can't hear music with headphones!

Fortunately, this reasoning is wrong! (I have a few "cans" for music listening, so plainly I don't believe it.) Headphones and small rooms don't work like that in practice.
Fortunately you have no clue of physics. Read about standing waves for start...
Inside headphones there are also resonant frequencies, usually around 2-3 kHz (look at any headphone frequency graph), and the manufacturers are fighting hard against them. That's why the open back headphones are the best - no reflections to color the sound. See one example below, the rounded triangular shape.
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post #19 of 38 Old 08-27-2013, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Because LFE is used just in movies, one it's enough. And my wife, like most females, hates the sounds below 40-50Hz anyway.

Use of multiple subwoofers has nothing to do with LFE or with increased loudness, but instead with smoothing of the in-room frequency response as compared to using only a single subwoofer. So one really isn't enough, unless you don't care about bass frequency response in-room. Maybe that's why you're not impressed with using a sub for 2 channel music?

See link for more info:
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20130827/13680.pdf

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post #20 of 38 Old 08-27-2013, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Fortunately you have no clue of physics.

Nice way of posting there ...

I'm aware of issues with standing waves at frequencies of sound when the wavelength is related to a dimension D of the "enclosure" as wavelength = 2*D/n (n=1,2,3,..). I haven't seen as much discussion of standing waves in the "enclosures" made between over-the-ear headphones and our ears. However, I have seen the high-frequency oscillations in headphone frequency response curves and assumed that was the reason. I pretty much agree with this part of your post:
Quote:
Inside headphones there are also resonant frequencies, usually around 2-3 kHz (look at any headphone frequency graph), and the manufacturers are fighting hard against them. That's why the open back headphones are the best - no reflections to color the sound. See one example below, the rounded triangular shape.

except I think "no reflections (at all)" is too strong a statement to make about open back headphones, "significantly less reflections than closed headphones" is more accurate, but that is sort of a quibble.

However, I stand by the comments in my previous message. I was addressing an "audio myth" that I've seen before and thought you were repeating here:
Quote:
especially if your room is small, there is no need to worry about bass, it just won't happen

That is the myth that a small room cannot "support" low-bass sound waves of wavelength larger (maybe much larger) than twice the largest room dimension. If one imagines a "small room" with "ideal boundary conditions", like perfectly airtight, rigid walls, I believe that room could not support sound waves of longer wavelength / lower frequency that the fundamental standing wave. Nor could changes in static air pressure (at constant temperature) occur in such a room. Real rooms are not anything like that.

BTW, if offered a chance to do a listening test in a room with perfectly airtight, rigid walls, I would pass eek.gif, just personal preference wink.gif

Because some posters here, like my near-namesake SoNiC67, are good at mis-stating what other people wrote, it would be interesting to see a response that begins "Sonic Icons is scheming to imprison us in an airtight room. With rigid walls." You would hardly need to change my wording at all to have me saying that.

yours sincerely,
Dr. Evil aka Sonic Icons biggrin.gif
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post #21 of 38 Old 08-28-2013, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Name a full size speaker that can be even just mentioned in the same breath as a decent mid-priced subwoofer.
That means that your system is probably cutting of the bass in the 40 Hz range for L & R.
You may misunderstand the true purpose of tools such as Audyssey, probably because they are somewhat mismarketed. Their purpose is to correct the overall response of the entire system, not just the room.
That is not a personal opinion, that is science. The idea that PCM should be avoided is an audiophile myth.
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Prefer to have 'only' 35Hz trough my speakers,

Your gun, your bullet, your foot.
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like the recording engineer intended than to smash the below 120Hz L-R signal into one subwoofer that was not even designed for that.

Where is it written in stone that one can only have one subwoofer? You call this "science"? LOL!
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Especially if your room is small, there is no need to worry about bass, it just won't happen.

I don't see where this reference supports your conclusion. You call this "science"? LOL!
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If the program is stereo only, I use headphones anyway...

That's a choice you get to make. You seem to be basically saying that your loudspeaker-based audio system is so limited and substandard that only your headphones are good enough for critical listening.
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As for Audyssey, you can keep believing that it will correct the 'whole system'. I heard different.

When you say "heard" does that mean that all you know about Audyssey is what you read on the internet?

If that much-vaunted EE that you claim was actually functional, you'd know why Audyssey has no choice but to correct your AVR, your speakers, and your room. You obviously don't. QED.
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post #22 of 38 Old 08-28-2013, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Fortunately you have no clue of physics.

Given the way your post seems to be misunderstanding and abusing the following reference, I'd say Doctor cure thyself!
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Read about standing waves for start...

Which relates, how?

Quote:
Inside headphones there are also resonant frequencies, usually around 2-3 kHz (look at any headphone frequency graph), and the manufacturers are fighting hard against them. That's why the open back headphones are the best - no reflections to color the sound.



OK, so what's happening with those resonances at 1 KHz and 3.5 KHz, just to name a few?

These are arguably some of the most accurate and highly regarded open ear headphones on the market today. Where are all of those resonances coming from?

In comparison, some circumaural (closed-ear) headphones from the same manufacturer:



Where is the alleged superiority of open ear headphones?
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post #23 of 38 Old 09-03-2013, 03:08 PM
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So you don't see the huge drop in linearity after 12kHz? And the artificial bass boost at 50Hz? And max at 100Hz, 8kHz...
Oh, wait, I forgot, we can't hear those...
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post #24 of 38 Old 09-03-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

So you don't see the huge drop in linearity after 12kHz? And the artificial bass boost at 50Hz? And max at 100Hz, 8kHz...
Oh, wait, I forgot, we can't hear those...

You fell into my trap - you formulated a global rule based on just two examples.

Prove that the difrerence you've observed is characteristic of every open and closed headphone there ever was or will be.
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post #25 of 38 Old 09-04-2013, 10:51 AM
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Physics 101 proves that - reflected waves will distort the original signal adding maxims and minims, based on component frequencies. I don't feel the need to school you in standing waves.
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post #26 of 38 Old 09-04-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Physics 101 proves that - reflected waves will distort the original signal adding maxims and minims, based on component frequencies. I don't feel the need to school you in standing waves.

So you are totally unaware of the fact that high frequency sound absorbers can be thin, light and cheap?

Ever take a pair of headphones apart to see what's inside, closed versus open?
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post #27 of 38 Old 09-04-2013, 11:01 AM
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So... are unaware that those are not perfect? Attenuation will create compression on the inner side and is always smaller than letting the sounds just dissipate "outside".
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post #28 of 38 Old 09-04-2013, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Physics 101 proves that - reflected waves will distort the original signal adding maxims and minims, based on component frequencies. I don't feel the need to school you in standing waves.

Then explain this:



Note the nearly identical response above 6 KHz. Just to review, the M50 is closed ear, and the ad700 is open ear.

According to you they should be vastly different because of reflections off of the closed back, but reality doesn't back you up, now does it?
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post #29 of 38 Old 09-04-2013, 11:10 AM
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Since you are demanding to explain basic physics laws: Because there are reflections in FRONT of the headphones too (from user's head), that need to be dealt with: ear padding is not just for comfy ears. Why add the back reflections into this mix when you can discard them?

You make no sense in trying to prove your mantra that 'everything sounds the same'.
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post #30 of 38 Old 09-04-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

So... are unaware that those are not perfect?

They don't have to be perfect to remove the notch at 12 KHz if its cause was the reflection
Quote:
Attenuation will create compression on the inner side and is always smaller than letting the sounds just dissipate "outside".

You are making this up?

Deal with the fact that I provide FR curves of open and closed ear headphones with nearly identical frequency response above say 5 KHz in the other post.
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