Audiophile CD Player? Which One? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 04:11 PM
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If I like the sound from the analog connector, yes. I choose based on which sound I prefer. Currently I use Oppo 103D as a transport running it to Parasound Zdac to Pioneer SC-75 via analog. i prefer that sound over 103D direct digital to SC-75.

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post #452 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 04:18 PM
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Sounds like too much work and gear for my taste! I suppose you don't apply any dsp/eq or anything fun like that?

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post #453 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The analog stage play a huge role in DAC units. I truly wish all DACs sound the same so I can just buy a $16 CD player and be happy with it.

Yes, it does. Obviously. But every single DAC I implemented in a product (see what I just said there?) came with a recommended circuit to use for the analog outputs. They even included layout guidelines and routing suggestions, as well as power supply requirements, etc. In other words, follow the cookbook instructions and it's pretty hard to mess it up. And if you do mess it up somehow, that will show up in the measurements you do when you test your prototypes. Then you can go back and fix it.

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post #454 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 05:07 PM
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Well, put it this way, I'm a cheap bastard biggrin.gif I do NOT want to spend money if I don't hear enough difference...and sadly for me I can hear the difference between the DAC implementation on the Pioneer vs the Zdac and I prefer the sound coming from the Zdac. I tried other standalone DACs too (from Cambridge Audio, Wadia, Rega etc). With some of the DACs, I can't hear any difference between the SC-75, some I hear the difference but I don't prefer it, some just sound 'different' (as in "no preference").

Nothing scientific, of course, but I truly wish I prefer the Sc-75 internal DAC or at least can't hear the difference between DACs I tried. Alas I have to spend money on the Zdac because I prefer it.

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post #455 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 05:09 PM
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Wow..check out that Moon tonight..suppose to be the red moon eclipse later...great evening for some pink Floyd....playing thru..my paradigms....DAC/cables n all..
Just relax..and listen...
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post #456 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Well, put it this way, I'm a cheap bastard biggrin.gif I do NOT want to spend money if I don't hear enough difference...and sadly for me I can hear the difference between the DAC implementation on the Pioneer vs the Zdac and I prefer the sound coming from the Zdac. I tried other standalone DACs too (from Cambridge Audio, Wadia, Rega etc). With some of the DACs, I can't hear any difference between the SC-75, some I hear the difference but I don't prefer it, some just sound 'different' (as in "no preference").

Nothing scientific, of course, but I truly wish I prefer the Sc-75 internal DAC or at least can't hear the difference between DACs I tried. Alas I have to spend money on the Zdac because I prefer it.

Did you confirm that its output level is the same as the others?
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post #457 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

If I like the sound from the analog connector, yes. I choose based on which sound I prefer. Currently I use Oppo 103D as a transport running it to Parasound Zdac to Pioneer SC-75 via analog. i prefer that sound over 103D direct digital to SC-75.
That's the way I have mine setup..I much prefer the depth and space around instruments..with my transport to DAC to anthem..via straightwire crescendo analog I.C...over the oppo to anthem via audioquest HDMI...it sounds very good....but for CRITICAL 2 ch music..I prefer the 1st setup.
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post #458 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 05:32 PM
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Did you confirm that its output level is the same as the others?

Yes. Before I compare them, I ran a 1 kHz test tone from a CD and level match each input within 0.5 dB accuracy. As my equipment is in another room, I select the DACs just by going input + and input - on my remote. I went back and forth so much to the point I no longer know which is which anymore and when I really like the sound, I went to my equipment room and it turned out to be the Zdac. I tried this multiple times for several days and always end up choosing the Zdac.

Again, nothing scientific, I just prefer it. Also, with certain DACs, as previously mentioned, I have no preference (can't tell the difference?) amongst some of them.

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post #459 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 06:07 PM
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So where did the Oppo DAC fit in, isn't it supposed to be of superior "sound quality"?

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post #460 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 06:19 PM
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So where did the Oppo DAC fit in, isn't it supposed to be of superior "sound quality"?
Yes..and it defenitly sounds amazing for H/T..it is great for music..the oppo105 is the unit with premium DAC/analog setup..but the 103 is not far behind.
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post #461 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

So where did the Oppo DAC fit in, isn't it supposed to be of superior "sound quality"?

I have no preference between the 103D vs the SC75. Which interestingly enough as I found out later on that the 103 and SC75 use the same DAC manufacturer (ESS Sabre32).

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post #462 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 06:29 PM
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Ps: I have no experience with the 105D which is supposed to be superior than the 103D.

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post #463 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Ps: I have no experience with the 105D which is supposed to be superior than the 103D.
How do you like the 103D for video?
I have the 103 ( no darbee) and picture quality is beyond anything any of my previous BRP have put out..I have heard great things about the 103d.
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post #464 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 06:41 PM
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As for PQ, the 103 is indistinguishable from Pioneer Elite BDp-62FD. The 103D, however, is head and shoulder vs the 103. From my personal experience, go with BDP 62 Elite or go straight to 103D.

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post #465 of 661 Old 04-14-2014, 06:41 PM
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I have also heard the z-dac..parasound makes some of the best products for the money..I am using there Halo amps for my system.
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post #466 of 661 Old 04-15-2014, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Did you confirm that its output level is the same as the others?

Yes. Before I compare them, I ran a 1 kHz test tone from a CD and level match each input within 0.5 dB accuracy. As my equipment is in another room, I select the DACs just by going input + and input - on my remote. I went back and forth so much to the point I no longer know which is which anymore and when I really like the sound, I went to my equipment room and it turned out to be the Zdac. I tried this multiple times for several days and always end up choosing the Zdac.

Again, nothing scientific, I just prefer it. Also, with certain DACs, as previously mentioned, I have no preference (can't tell the difference?) amongst some of them.

That is not a good enough job of level matching. You can hear the difference between a sound and .5dB above it at normal volumes. You can test this for yourself with the volume control on many AVRs, which have .5dB increments.

So I believe you do hear differences. But you would hear differences with identical DACs and audio circuits if you have them .5dB different in level.
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post #467 of 661 Old 04-15-2014, 09:17 AM
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That is not a good enough job of level matching. You can hear the difference between a sound and .5dB above it at normal volumes. You can test this for yourself with the volume control on many AVRs, which have .5dB increments.

So I believe you do hear differences. But you would hear differences with identical DACs and audio circuits if you have them .5dB different in level.
The only difference I hear is it is louder...the depth,detail,soundstage..etc are not there...but they are there using DAC,analog,transport etc.
Big difference... Not slight!
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post #468 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 09:39 AM
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I commend you for your impressively vivid imagination!

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #469 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 11:33 AM
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I commend you for your impressively vivid imagination!

It really does not show much imagination at all. What it shows is a complete failure to understand human hearing.

First of all, one will hear more detail with one slightly louder than another, because with the one, some of the detail will be too soft for one to hear, while with the other, it is raised up just enough to hear it. What could be more obvious than that? Hearing more detail is one of the things that people commonly talk about when they compare two things without level matching them. But it is something that one should expect when one has failed to level match two devices. It is really sad that people need to be told such an obvious truth. But it is sadder still that some people do not benefit from being told such an obvious truth.

The relative volume also affects the perceived frequency response (Fletcher & Munson). So a difference in volume is not perceived as merely a difference in volume; it changes the apparent tonal character. That leads to all sorts of other verbiage about how different they sound.

One should level match within 0.1dB and listen blind. Otherwise, what one is doing is worthless.

Many times, the "huge" differences people claim to hear "mysteriously" disappear when properly tested blind with proper level matching.

God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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post #470 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 11:38 AM
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Jack, you just don't understand how golden esh's ears are. He can not only tell the differences between different DAC chips but he can even tell what interconnects and power cords that were used. He is truly amazing.
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post #471 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 02:07 PM
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Jack, you just don't understand how golden esh's ears are. He can not only tell the differences between different DAC chips but he can even tell what interconnects and power cords that were used. He is truly amazing.

If golden ears had half the ability they imagine they have, they would forever be complaining that their right and left speakers never match perfectly. And that their lack of symmetry in their rooms made the situation even worse.

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post #472 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 03:34 PM
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It really does not show much imagination at all. What it shows is a complete failure to understand human hearing.......................

Yes, I understand and agree with all that. Well explained on your part, but this has been expressed to esh516 several times before. And each time it is met with the noncomprehending or non-accepting Spinal Tap equivalent response of, "but these go to eleven".

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #473 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 03:45 PM
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Hope you all have a happy easter...well..that is if you can hear this.

Life is short..listen more...
And who cares to what...or how...
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post #474 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 03:49 PM
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.....oh and thanks for the kind words LovingHD..ha ha!

If you knew how critical of a listener I am...( to music)..lol
Then maybe..just maybe you all would understand my way of listening.
Its all good...
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post #475 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

If golden ears had half the ability they imagine they have, they would forever be complaining that their right and left speakers never match perfectly. And that their lack of symmetry in their rooms made the situation even worse.

HEY..that's Really a valid complaint!!
I spent a lot of Time making sure that was not happening...ha ha
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post #476 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

If golden ears had half the ability they imagine they have, they would forever be complaining that their right and left speakers never match perfectly. And that their lack of symmetry in their rooms made the situation even worse.

HEY..that's Really a valid complaint!!
I spent a lot of Time making sure that was not happening...ha ha

It is a valid complaint:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzuky View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

As loud as you want to, the initial stiffness of the suspension doesn't affect the speaker's ability to function.
Interesting I believe I have been told or read somewhere that it is not good to play speakers loud in the first 30-40 hours at least, on the other hand the subwoofer in my car got blasted right out of the box (on top of that it is overpowerd) , it was a long time ago I have never heard of "brake in" and the woofer is still working great, never distorted too.... Kicker lol but for the price is great

There are a lot myths in audio. The idea that speaker break-in affects the sound is one of them.

Here is a useful article on the subject:

Speaker Break In: Fact or Fiction? | Audioholics

You will want to click to continue reading the second page of the article.

Here are a couple of quotes from it:

From the foregoing analyses, it's reasonable to conclude that suspension compliance changes arising as a consequence of initial driver burn in has little effect on the performance of a loudspeaker system.

And:
Normal production unit-to-unit driver spec variances can affect final amplitude response of a system to a larger degree than that expected from normal pre- post-burn in driver suspension compliance changes.

Basically, if you are not COMMONLY hearing differences between different drivers of the exact same type, you are not hearing differences caused by "break-in" of speakers. And since people who claim to believe in break-in are not usually returning speakers because the right and left don't match perfectly, they are imagining that they hear a difference from break-in, which is likely caused by them getting used to the sound of the new speaker.

If golden ears really heard speaker "break in," they would be commonly hearing the larger differences between individual drivers. But since they don't, we know they are full of excrement.

God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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post #477 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Hope you all have a happy easter...well..that is if you can hear this.

Life is short..listen more...
And who cares to what...or how...

But don't you see, friend?  You can't enjoy what you're hearing unless you pass muster with the hearing police, and your scandalous assertions that you can hear differences must be endlessly picked apart.  Level matched?  Not so fast.  People can't hear differences in gear, but apparently they can hear differences in volume as slight as .5 decibel.  I'd really like to see that pretzel.

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post #478 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 05:07 PM
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But don't you see, friend?  You can't enjoy what you're hearing unless you pass muster with the hearing police, and your scandalous assertions that you can hear differences must be endlessly picked apart.  Level matched?  Not so fast.  People can't hear differences in gear, but apparently they can hear differences in volume as slight as .5 decibel.  I'd really like to see that pretzel.
And that pretzel is even better with almonds and caramel dip!
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post #479 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 06:15 PM
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It really does not show much imagination at all. What it shows is a complete failure to understand human hearing.

First of all, one will hear more detail with one slightly louder than another, because with the one, some of the detail will be too soft for one to hear, while with the other, it is raised up just enough to hear it. What could be more obvious than that? Hearing more detail is one of the things that people commonly talk about when they compare two things without level matching them. But it is something that one should expect when one has failed to level match two devices. It is really sad that people need to be told such an obvious truth. But it is sadder still that some people do not benefit from being told such an obvious truth.

The relative volume also affects the perceived frequency response (Fletcher & Munson). So a difference in volume is not perceived as merely a difference in volume; it changes the apparent tonal character. That leads to all sorts of other verbiage about how different they sound.

One should level match within 0.1dB and listen blind. Otherwise, what one is doing is worthless.

Many times, the "huge" differences people claim to hear "mysteriously" disappear when properly tested blind with proper level matching.

What?
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post #480 of 661 Old 04-17-2014, 07:11 PM
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... Like I said. biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post

 Level matched?  Not so fast.  People can't hear differences in gear, but apparently they can hear differences in volume as slight as .5 decibel.  I'd really like to see that pretzel.

It's not a difficult distinction to comprehend. No pretzel logic to untwist here, no contradiction.

So try harder. You can do better, I believe in you! smile.gif
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