Audiophile CD Player? Which One? - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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CD Players & Dedicated Music Transports > Audiophile CD Player? Which One?
CruelInventions's Avatar CruelInventions 11:03 AM 04-24-2014
And you've been the train conductor!

esh516's Avatar esh516 11:06 AM 04-24-2014
...and your the caboose.. Lol
Cmon man...
CruelInventions's Avatar CruelInventions 11:28 AM 04-24-2014
You've bumped this thread several times from dormancy so naming you, "chief train-wreck conductor" seems about right. biggrin.gif
CharlesJ's Avatar CharlesJ 12:06 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Yup..parsounds 4500$ cd1 sounds just like the Philips 69$ CD.

....when there both on standby...
By the way...the parasound is by a very very wide margin the very best sounding player I have ever ever had the pleasure of listening to...its on my Xmas list!

Good for you. After all, some have to support the economy at this level. rolleyes.gif
RobertR's Avatar RobertR 12:20 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Yup..parsounds 4500$ cd1 sounds just like the Philips 69$ CD.

....when there both on standby...
By the way...the parasound is by a very very wide margin the very best sounding player I have ever ever had the pleasure of listening to...its on my Xmas list!
A $4500 player with a CD ROM transport and plastic caps on the front panel? Ugh. Double Ugh.
esh516's Avatar esh516 12:26 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

You've bumped this thread several times from dormancy so naming you, "chief train-wreck conductor" seems about right. biggrin.gif
No..no..no..I did not bump Nada..I'm just giving my own personal thoughts on this subject..I'm not telling you to go out and buy new hi end cables.
esh516's Avatar esh516 12:28 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Good for you. After all, some have to support the economy at this level. rolleyes.gif
The economy down here in South Florida is big time outta control...every body is hiring..way way to much work...and I'm not buying the parasound..Santa is bringing it..cmon man.
RobertR's Avatar RobertR 12:32 PM 04-24-2014
Santa has bad taste if he brings a multi kilobuck CD player with plastic on the front panel.
esh516's Avatar esh516 12:44 PM 04-24-2014
Sound trumps looks...its a beautiful player.....
esh516's Avatar esh516 12:46 PM 04-24-2014
I do agree that transports will not make the sound better..build quality and tray design is what matters.
CruelInventions's Avatar CruelInventions 12:51 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

No..no..no..I did not bump Nada..I'm just giving my own personal thoughts on this subject..I'm not telling you to go out and buy new hi end cables.

last post on 1/5/14, thread dies > new post on 1/11/14 ... guess who??
last post on 9/03/13, thread dies > new post on 9/11/13 ... guess who??

case closed.
RobertR's Avatar RobertR 12:58 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

...its a beautiful player.....
Plastic is not beautiful. You want beauty, get this
esh516's Avatar esh516 01:00 PM 04-24-2014
Why even have a thread called CD players and transports ???

We all are just talking about bs stuff
Nobody can give there opinion or thoughts without getting shot down.
I really would like to know what kind of gear and cables you all use.. And have you ever tried very good hi end cables?...omg...everyone I know..the shows.. Ces..stereophile..all agree with my thoughts on this subject...this is the ONLY place that does not hear what the rest of us do...but its all good..I really only care what I hear not no one else.. It's just nice to talk audio with good people.. Yes you are all great.
esh516's Avatar esh516 01:01 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

last post on 1/5/14, thread dies > new post on 1/11/14 ... guess who??
last post on 9/03/13, thread dies > new post on 9/11/13 ... guess who??

case closed.
Case closed my azz..I DID not start this thread... Wtf???
CruelInventions's Avatar CruelInventions 01:24 PM 04-24-2014
Never said you started the thread, I said you bumped this thread several times. You replied that you hadn't bumped Nada, I documented at least a couple times in which you had bumped the thread from obscurity. No need to get so worked up. It appears you're addicted to this particular train wreck. Just own your addiction. It's the first step to recovery. wink.gif
esh516's Avatar esh516 01:48 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Never said you started the thread, I said you bumped this thread several times. You replied that you hadn't bumped Nada, I documented at least a couple times in which you had bumped the thread from obscurity. No need to get so worked up. It appears you're addicted to this particular train wreck. Just own your addiction. It's the first step to recovery. wink.gif
That's just cruel!!...your just as guilty!..ha ha...I'm not worked up..I just love audio and hi end gear..yes and even hi end power cords.. etc
And my first step to recovery starts now...with celebration day by zeppelin......and this brownie...
You all enjoy your Thursday...time is moving faster and faster... Apparently we are all wasting to much of it..agreed?
Now....let's just listen!
audio4life's Avatar audio4life 01:51 PM 04-24-2014
You provided two, not several examples, and a 6 or 7 day bump is not sign of addiction or anything else. Personally, I'd like to discuss sonic differences in gear occasionally on this forum, but whenever I do I get habitually shouted down by one of 7 or 8 objectivists. So I go to other forums where adults can agree to disagree.
esh516's Avatar esh516 03:48 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty View Post

I must concede that when these threads get going, the subjectivists also have a problem with leaving the issue alone. It does indeed take two sides to make an argument, as this thread demonstrates. I would submit that the argument is typically started by objectivists, at least in my experience, when someone merely asks what CD player to buy, and an objectivist quickly pops in to say, "It doesn't matter. Buy a DVD player." But no matter. This was not my main point; it was merely an aside. (And my point is not to argue whether there are audible differences between CD players.)

My main point was that these arguments are for the most part pointless (and actually harmful to the extent that they induce forum members who should be friendly with one another to be antagonistic), and that there should be some separation of threads involving arguments about "objectivism" and threads about perceived subjective differences. I seem to recall some other forums have done this with success. It is quite easy on such forums to read both types of threads and to learn about the opinions of objectivists, and the opinions of subjectivists. My newspaper has a separate section for sports, and one for local, and one for food, and one for national news, etc. I don't need the sports to be mixed in with the national news so I can find it. Nobody who has any interest in exploring whether it makes sense to buy a more expensive CD player and who comes to this forum would miss anything, wastes of bandwidth like this thread would be minimized, and there would be less hostility.

I submit that most subjectivists would not have a problem with such an approach. But, as I noted above, the objectivists seem to argue against this approach, and I'm sure they will not agree to it here (as the comments on this thread already establish). They would not even agree to it if they were given big bold lettered posts and "stickies" to proclaim their opinion, and the subjectivists were relegated to a forum named for "fools who believe CD players sound different." It is critical to objectivists that they get to intrude on any discussion where someone suggests that they heard an audible difference. This is what the objectivists really want. It is not enough to have a forum for their opinions; they want the right to intrude on any and every thread. Why? The reason, I submit, is that the goal of quite a few of the objectivists who repeatedly post in this area is not merely to offer a point of view or to offer information to assist others. I think the point is to harass subjectivists and ridicule them. I think, with all due respect, that there is some measure of arrogance or ego behind this, but in any event, it engenders quite a bit of hostility that could be easily remedied (or at least reduced).
Holy crap Smitty!..... THAT was one of the most beautiful things I have ever read!... And it is sooo true...so sad..
That is the absolute truth....good job Smitty..thank you for taking the time .
beaveav's Avatar beaveav 04:00 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post

You provided two, not several examples, and a 6 or 7 day bump is not sign of addiction or anything else. Personally, I'd like to discuss sonic differences in gear occasionally on this forum, but whenever I do I get habitually shouted down by one of 7 or 8 objectivists. So I go to other forums where adults can agree to disagree.

Oddly enough, as a part-time objectivist, I've been habitually shouted down on other forums by subjectivists. So I go to this forum, where adults can agree to disagree.
beaveav's Avatar beaveav 04:12 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty View Post

I must concede that when these threads get going, the subjectivists also have a problem with leaving the issue alone. It does indeed take two sides to make an argument, as this thread demonstrates. I would submit that the argument is typically started by objectivists, at least in my experience, when someone merely asks what CD player to buy, and an objectivist quickly pops in to say, "It doesn't matter. Buy a DVD player." But no matter. This was not my main point; it was merely an aside. (And my point is not to argue whether there are audible differences between CD players.)

My main point was that these arguments are for the most part pointless (and actually harmful to the extent that they induce forum members who should be friendly with one another to be antagonistic), and that there should be some separation of threads involving arguments about "objectivism" and threads about perceived subjective differences. I seem to recall some other forums have done this with success. It is quite easy on such forums to read both types of threads and to learn about the opinions of objectivists, and the opinions of subjectivists. My newspaper has a separate section for sports, and one for local, and one for food, and one for national news, etc. I don't need the sports to be mixed in with the national news so I can find it. Nobody who has any interest in exploring whether it makes sense to buy a more expensive CD player and who comes to this forum would miss anything, wastes of bandwidth like this thread would be minimized, and there would be less hostility.

I submit that most subjectivists would not have a problem with such an approach. But, as I noted above, the objectivists seem to argue against this approach, and I'm sure they will not agree to it here (as the comments on this thread already establish). They would not even agree to it if they were given big bold lettered posts and "stickies" to proclaim their opinion, and the subjectivists were relegated to a forum named for "fools who believe CD players sound different." It is critical to objectivists that they get to intrude on any discussion where someone suggests that they heard an audible difference. This is what the objectivists really want. It is not enough to have a forum for their opinions; they want the right to intrude on any and every thread. Why? The reason, I submit, is that the goal of quite a few of the objectivists who repeatedly post in this area is not merely to offer a point of view or to offer information to assist others. I think the point is to harass subjectivists and ridicule them. I think, with all due respect, that there is some measure of arrogance or ego behind this, but in any event, it engenders quite a bit of hostility that could be easily remedied (or at least reduced).

If an objectivist claimed to hear differences in a properly conducted listening test, then I would certainly be interested in hearing about it, reading about it, learning about it, etc. But when objectivists do the same old "I changed A for B and by gawd I heard a difference!" with no level matching, quick switching, etc, then, well, it's kinda annoying.
esh516's Avatar esh516 04:14 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Oddly enough, as a part-time objectivist, I've been habitually shouted down on other forums by subjectivists. So I go to this forum, where adults can agree to disagree.
Agree to disagree?... Here?...hold on..I walked in the wrong door..
spkr's Avatar spkr 05:51 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdcrox View Post

And why would you say these would sound different based on a picture? It appears to be the same drive, are you saying by looking at the circuitry, one is better than the other?wink.gif
Umm..., yeah. Just like the subjectivists looking at the price of CD players and determine which sounds better. wink.gif
beaveav's Avatar beaveav 06:22 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Agree to disagree?... Here?...hold on..I walked in the wrong door..

Perhaps you missed the tongue-in-cheek tone of the post. Not everything you read is supposed to be read literally.
esh516's Avatar esh516 06:53 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Perhaps you missed the tongue-in-cheek tone of the post. Not everything you read is supposed to be read literally.
....oh..I'm sorry... Wait..oh OK.
esh516's Avatar esh516 07:05 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkr View Post

Umm..., yeah. Just like the subjectivists looking at the price of CD players and determine which sounds better. wink.gif
Price does not determine Nada.
The trick is finding gear that out performs way beyond its price point...
Example..Parasound halo amps.
I have returned lots of different gear/cables. And got something half the price that out performed it.
lovinthehd's Avatar lovinthehd 08:20 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Price does not determine Nada.
The trick is finding gear that out performs way beyond its price point...
Example..Parasound halo amps.
I have returned lots of different gear/cables. And got something half the price that out performed it.

So if "price does not determine nothing", do the double negatives cancel out and that translates to price does determine?

Parasound performs beyond its price point? How so?
Jack D Ripper's Avatar Jack D Ripper 09:10 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post

Do you think it would be useful to have a thread reserved for the people who claim that a stick halfway in water really is bent? If not, why do you think it is better for there to be the equivalent for audio illusions but not visual ones?

That is an extremely poor analogy. It is so poor, it does not merit a response.

That is very funny, given that your reply is a response. A very poor and meritless response, but a response nonetheless.

However, the analogy is perfect. People "see" the stick bent halfway in the water when it is really straight, and people "hear" that one device sounds better than another when they are not properly level matched. And also when they do not listen blind.

It is a well-known fact that people can hear differences in volume, unless they are very, very tiny (e.g., <0.1dB). It is also a well-known fact that differences in volume are perceived by humans as being different in tonal character and not simply different in volume (search online for "Fletcher Munson" for more, but here is a simple start).

The importance of this comes up when one considers listening to various different things, like two different CD players. The level of the output of CD players is not precisely standardized, and so the output of one player may be slightly higher than another player. This means that when one listens and compares the two players, it is highly likely that they will be slightly different in volume when used with any given system at any given volume setting. Since a difference in volume involves a difference in tonal perception, this means that one may well prefer the sound of one CD player over another, even if the ONLY difference between them is a difference in volume. And, obviously, one can hear more detail in one that is slightly louder, because sounds that are just barely too soft to be audible in the softer one will be audible in the louder one. And so if one fails to properly match the volume of two CD players, one may well hear tonal differences and differences in detail, even if the ONLY difference is a difference in volume. To avoid the error of imagining that the one player actually has a different tonal character and actually gives more detail, one must precisely level match them so that one will be hearing them both at precisely the same volume.

To deny these well-known facts is very much like denying the well-known fact that straight sticks, when stuck halfway in water, look bent. That has to do with the way people see, and so one must take care to do a proper test before judging that the stick is actually bent (which, of course, one may have a stick that is bent at precisely the water line, but a proper test will reveal if that is the case or not). Likewise with hearing: One must take proper precautions to make a proper test about what one hears, just as one must make a proper test about what one sees, if one wishes to avoid making an erroneous judgement.

Denying that the analogy is a good one does nothing to further your argument. "Is not" is a schoolyard sort of "argument," unworthy of any serious consideration. The simple fact is, without proper testing, one does not know if two things sound alike or not when level matched and properly tested.
audio4life's Avatar audio4life 09:30 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post


Price does not determine Nada.
The trick is finding gear that out performs way beyond its price point...
Example..Parasound halo amps.
I have returned lots of different gear/cables. And got something half the price that out performed it.

I think the best thing to do is to leave the rigid belittling posters to their own devices.  They are not worth bothering with.


smitty's Avatar smitty 03:40 PM 04-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post


However, the analogy is perfect. People "see" the stick bent halfway in the water when it is really straight, and people "hear" that one device sounds better than another when they are not properly level matched. And also when they do not listen blind.

To explain why your analogy is poor would require me to delve into the the merits or the "substance" of the argument between objectivists and subjectivists. But I'm not so much interested in the "substance" of the respective arguments at this point, as I am in what might be called the "process" or the dynamics of the discussion/dispute. To put it another way, I'm more interested in the reasons for the objectivists' passion and stridency on this issue, and how to deal with what appears to be an obsessive need of some (not all) to intrude on every thread that initiates a discussion of alleged subjective differences between components -- an intrusion which I think is generally not productive and could be handled in a more efficient and less hostile manner.

I often find it fascinating just from an intellectual standpoint to understand why people behave the way they do with respect to certain controversies, particularly when there appears to be a level of passion or obsessiveness on one side that seems out of proportion to the importance of the subject matter, and particularly when it seems to engender excessive conflict. But I understand that others might not share my interest (which often borders on amusement) at this particular phenomenon.
RobertR's Avatar RobertR 03:50 PM 04-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper

However, the analogy is perfect. People "see" the stick bent halfway in the water when it is really straight, and people "hear" that one device sounds better than another when they are not properly level matched. And also when they do not listen blind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty View Post

To explain why your analogy is poor would require me to delve into the the merits or the "substance" of the argument between objectivists and subjectivists.

The substance of the argument is that the reality is that the stick is straight. The bent characteristic is a false perception. It's a clear, unmistakable example of why subjectivists who state that whatever they perceive cannot possibly be a false representation of reality are wrong.

Another example:



The subjectivist would state categorically that the lines MUST be non parallel if he perceives them as such. He will NOT accept that they are parallel if they are shown to be so by objectivist means.

Yet another example:



The subjectivist will state that the beans MUST be moving if he perceives that they are. He won't accept the fact that his mind creates the motion.
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