Audiophile CD Player? Which One? - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
The further you step up that price chain, the greater the possibility that the players will indeed be sonically indistinguishable. Thinking otherwise denies the law of diminishing returns which is practically speaking a very strong rule.
Because you tore apart a $40 dvd player? The problem is I just don't see anything where you've laid your hands on a $20,000 or even a $2000 player. Looking at cheap gear and making assumptions regarding everything else in the marketplace is a fool's errand, and we wouldn't want to do that.


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Last time I tore apart a $40 DVD player, the analog outputs were based on Crystal Semiconductor 24/192 DAC chips.
That's helpful as far as it goes. But again, one cheap player is hardly enough of a base line to extrapolate with.
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post #722 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
The further you step up that price chain, the greater the possibility that the players will indeed be sonically indistinguishable. Thinking otherwise denies the law of diminishing returns which is practically speaking a very strong rule.

$20 is a low bar for a music player, but if you move the price point North a few Jackson's it is probably true, particularly for the digital outputs. Bits are pretty much bits.

Last time I tore apart a $40 DVD player, the analog outputs were based on Crystal Semiconductor 24/192 DAC chips.

IME the worst thing about hyper-cheap music players for home use has been the durability and usability.
So by your own admission, NOT all CD players are created equal
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post #723 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 10:59 AM
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So the Sylvania $20 DVD player sounds the same as (say) MBL Corona CD player at $9,000?
Probably. (And if they don't the problem isn't necessarily with the Sylvania.)

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So by your own admission, NOT all CD players are created equal
Correct. But almost all of them are audibly indistinguishable, hence the answer above.

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post #724 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 11:48 AM
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Funny. I actually own both and the Sylvania sounds extremely gritty compared to the MBL. Don't get me wrong, I'm a cheap bastard I TRULY AND HONESTLY WISH that all CD players sound the same, all cables sound the same and all blu-ray players look the same and all power amplifiers sound the same. This way I can just buy Sylvania HTiB for $78.88 at WalMart, spend money on better speakers, projectors and screen. Quite unfortunately, even though I WANT TO BELIEVE that, my personal experiences that not all CD players, DAC, amp, cables sound the same. And no, don't ask me the inevitable "have you done a DBT" question.
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post #725 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 11:55 AM
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And no, don't ask me the inevitable "have you done a DBT" question.
I don't have to. I already know the answer.

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post #726 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 11:56 AM
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More power to you if you're happy with a $20 Sylvania. Life will be so much easier if that's the case.

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post #727 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 12:30 PM
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Last year I re-gifted a $20 Sylvania to a co-worker, now whenever I see my co-worker he gives me a strange look. Should I tell him it sounds the same as a $20,000 player? I mean, it may measure a little differently, but it's inaudible, right?
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post #728 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 12:54 PM
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These guys make me laugh. When it's not measurable they say "see? It's not measurable". When it's measurable, they then say "it doesn't matter"

You can't have it both ways, guys!
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post #729 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 01:01 PM
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That's got to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen!

It says to me: "This guy must know how to do reliable listening tests because of his internet anonymous posting handle". Why would anybody believe that, let alone make such a claim?
Not only I was making friendly conversation but I was also right. ...Debunk that.

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post #730 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 01:03 PM
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When it's not measurable they say "see? It's not measurable".
What has anyone said is not measurable? Everything is measurable.

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When it's measurable, they then say "it doesn't matter"
When has anyone said that? What's measurable may or may not matter. It depends on how great the measured difference is.

I'm amazed that someone could post 9500 times here and still not grasp such basic logic.

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post #731 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 01:09 PM
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Did my post mentioned you? After 6000+ posts you don't know whether a post is directed to you or not?

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post #732 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 01:25 PM
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Did my post mentioned you? After 6000+ posts you don't know whether a post is directed to you or not?
If you meant it only for someone else, you should have PMed him.

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post #733 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
spend money on better speakers, projectors and screen.
But not on room acoustics. That's unfortunate.
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post #734 of 841 Old 08-30-2014, 05:51 PM
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That goes without saying, though. One should start with room acoustics before buying any AV equipment.
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post #735 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
That goes without saying, though. One should start with room acoustics before buying any AV equipment.
How would one do that without knowing how the speakers interact with the room?
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post #736 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 06:50 AM
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Because you tore apart a $40 dvd player? The problem is I just don't see anything where you've laid your hands on a $20,000 or even a $2000 player.
All kinds of details about really high priced players are easy enough to find on the web. What is harder to find is similar info about players in the $40-100 range.

There is a hidden agenda related to really high priced players.

Virtually no reviews are written by man-on-the-street cash purchase list price owners. They are typically based on players on loan from the manufacturers. The manufacturers thus closely control who gets to do close, in-person evaluations of production samples of their products (if they exist).

Do you seriously think that I for example am so much of an unknown quantity to most high end manufacturers of high end product that they would intentionally allow me to get into even the same zip code as their product? ;-)

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding about audio here. All a music player has to do is be sonically transparent.

If you want to take any wiggle room out of that, simply demand that the player is bit-perfect. Especially for the digital outputs of music players, that kind of performance is readily available at completely reasonable prices.

That leaves very little for high priced players to improve on, right?
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post #737 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 07:03 AM
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Funny. I actually own both and the Sylvania sounds extremely gritty compared to the MBL. .
Two words: Sighted evaluation. Why anybody would sully their reputation with the results of such an obviously and well known to be greviously flawed evaluation technique evades me.

That's all said, $20 does not leave a lot of wiggle room for actually delivering a clean analog audio signal.

For me, the whole question of dedicated music players is pretty moot, because this is the tool I use for most of my loudspeaker-based listening:

http://www.arrisi.com/products/product.asp?id=37

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post #738 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
All kinds of details about really high priced players are easy enough to find on the web. What is harder to find is similar info about players in the $40-100 range.

There is a hidden agenda related to really high priced players.

Virtually no reviews are written by man-on-the-street cash purchase list price owners. They are typically based on players on loan from the manufacturers. The manufacturers thus closely control who gets to do close, in-person evaluations of production samples of their products (if they exist).

Do you seriously think that I for example am so much of an unknown quantity to most high end manufacturers of high end product that they would intentionally allow me to get into even the same zip code as their product? ;-)

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding about audio here. All a music player has to do is be sonically transparent.

If you want to take any wiggle room out of that, simply demand that the player is bit-perfect. Especially for the digital outputs of music players, that kind of performance is readily available at completely reasonable prices.

That leaves very little for high priced players to improve on, right?
So true Arny! But please, go on. Do you have any info about how Von Braun was involved in the early days of video?
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post #739 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
All a music player has to do is be sonically transparent.
I agree, but not all music players are sonically transparent.
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post #740 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
I agree, but not all music players are sonically transparent.
If they aren't, it can be measured.
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post #741 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 12:31 PM
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I'm sure you definitely can. The difference between my Sylvania and my MBL is not subtle at all.
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post #742 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 01:52 PM
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The difference between my Sylvania and my MBL is not subtle at all.
Sez you, and you might be right. But the field is replete with cases where the differences were not subtle until the moment they were discovered not to exist at all. Hence the skepticism.

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post #743 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 08:39 PM
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Sez you, and you might be right. But the field is replete with cases where the differences were not subtle until the moment they were discovered not to exist at all. Hence the skepticism.
I did a little searching and the only Sylvania CD players that I could find any mention of were portables, mostly boom boxes.

I don't see a valid comparison between what I found and a MBL on the grounds that it is not an apples to apples comparison. And I'm not talking about differences in price or panache.

IMO a CD player would have to at least have a headphone jack to be compared legitimately.

There is a Sylvania boombox currently on sale at Big Lots for $20 but I don't think it has a headphone jack.

http://www.biglots.com/p/sylvania-portable-cd-radio

Ironically some high end CD players have been tagged for using the same transports as those in some boom boxes, but I don't think it was this one.

To me a reasonable comparison would be between the MBL and a $60-100 optical player by one of the major mid-fi manufacturers.
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post #744 of 841 Old 08-31-2014, 10:38 PM
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Arny, are you familiar with audioaficionado website?
...And the latest Esoteric CD players; K-01 and K-03 for example?
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post #745 of 841 Old 09-01-2014, 03:15 AM
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Arny, are you familiar with audioaficionado website?
Seems like an empty web site. I clicked on the FAQ and nothing came up.

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...And the latest Esoteric CD players; K-01 and K-03 for example?
It seems like the following, which I already posted once on this thread already answered this:

There is a hidden agenda related to really high priced players.

Virtually no reviews are written by man-on-the-street cash purchase list price owners. They are typically based on players on loan from the manufacturers. The manufacturers thus closely control who gets to do close, in-person evaluations of production samples of their products (if they exist).

Do you seriously think that I for example am so much of an unknown quantity to most high end manufacturers of high end product that they would intentionally allow me to get into even the same zip code as their product? ;-)

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding about audio here. All a music player has to do is be sonically transparent.

If you want to take any wiggle room out of that, simply demand that the player is bit-perfect. Especially for the digital outputs of music players, that kind of performance is readily available at completely reasonable prices.

That leaves very little for high priced players to improve on, right?
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post #746 of 841 Old 09-01-2014, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
All a music player has to do is be sonically transparent.

If you want to take any wiggle room out of that, simply demand that the player is bit-perfect. Especially for the digital outputs of music players, that kind of performance is readily available at completely reasonable prices.
But at some point, digital must be converted to analog. I input the analog output of my Ayre and Oppo to an analog stereo preamp, a Parasound JC-2. While the JC-2 was away for a by-pass mod, I listened to stereo with the Oppo 105 connected directly to Proceed HPA amps. The sound was very good, but lacked the transparency of the Ayre, the ability to make a singer seem as though he's standing between the KEF 107/2s.

I already anticipate that arnyk will belittle the piled higher and deeper appellation and tell everyone my judgement is flawed. Nevertheless I post, because it should be obvious that bit-perfect from a disc player only leaves analog conversion to some other component, and that component may not be as capable as the analog processing of the disc player.

db

Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
Ayre C-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-105, & Sony XA5400ES disc players
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post #747 of 841 Old 09-01-2014, 11:24 AM
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You got it, dbphd, all rolled up in one post.
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post #748 of 841 Old 09-01-2014, 11:46 AM
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A perfect post, dbphd !!!
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post #749 of 841 Old 09-01-2014, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Seems like an empty web site. I clicked on the FAQ and nothing came up.
It's a private club (exclusive audio website); you have to register as a privileged member to access privileges of reading private matters by audio dealers and private reviews about audio components by some of them private members (owner, mod,audio dealer, and master of dealin' & friend).

It is empty because the number of members is less than 100 times what they fudged (after you register as one of their private club members).

And there are levels of "flying wings" (amount of $$ payments) that gives you even more privileges,
like seeing cute girls in bikinis (or without), participating in monthly draws (CD music, or LP if you prefer), and coupons (deals) for your audio purchases, etc.

It's a good place, nice atmosphere, good humor, all that jazz. ...For frustrated people coming from other audio forums.

It's like a private business deal audio dealer for high end audio gear. ...With total control in order to make the most money possible.

You should register Arny, and see how long you'll last, and see if they appreciate your wise insights.
...Or just for the fun of it. ...The more you pay the more they love.

Quote:
It seems like the following, which I already posted once on this thread already answered this:

There is a hidden agenda related to really high priced players.

Virtually no reviews are written by man-on-the-street cash purchase list price owners. They are typically based on players on loan from the manufacturers. The manufacturers thus closely control who gets to do close, in-person evaluations of production samples of their products (if they exist).

Do you seriously think that I for example am so much of an unknown quantity to most high end manufacturers of high end product that they would intentionally allow me to get into even the same zip code as their product? ;-)

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding about audio here. All a music player has to do is be sonically transparent.

If you want to take any wiggle room out of that, simply demand that the player is bit-perfect. Especially for the digital outputs of music players, that kind of performance is readily available at completely reasonable prices.

That leaves very little for high priced players to improve on, right?
Thx for that Arny; perhaps you can improve 1 or 2% more of the sound after paying a certain amount for an audiophile CD player. ...Say going from $2,000 to $20,000 or $30,000

* I paid $15 for my Technics audiophile CD player (second-hand; MSRP was $129).
That's my less expensive one, out of about twenty more. ...But the most solid and reliable one; even sound wise.

I would love to buy the Esoteric K-01 audiophile CD player, but I'm a little bit short of cash right now;
can you spare me few bucks, I will pay you back as soon as I can.
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post #750 of 841 Old 09-01-2014, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
But at some point, digital must be converted to analog. I input the analog output of my Ayre and Oppo to an analog stereo preamp, a Parasound JC-2. While the JC-2 was away for a by-pass mod, I listened to stereo with the Oppo 105 connected directly to Proceed HPA amps. The sound was very good, but lacked the transparency of the Ayre, the ability to make a singer seem as though he's standing between the KEF 107/2s.

I already anticipate that arnyk will belittle the piled higher and deeper appellation and tell everyone my judgement is flawed. Nevertheless I post, because it should be obvious that bit-perfect from a disc player only leaves analog conversion to some other component, and that component may not be as capable as the analog processing of the disc player.

db
Did this revelation occur through a bias-controlled listening test?
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