Audiophile CD Player? Which One? - Page 26 - AVS Forum
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post #751 of 822 Old 09-01-2014, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
I already anticipate that arnyk will belittle the piled higher and deeper appellation and tell everyone my judgement is flawed.
Your judgement isn't flawed. I would have came up with the same judgement if I listened to those components at unmatched level. But when you match them, something else may happen which you should try.
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post #752 of 822 Old 09-01-2014, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
bias-controlled listening test?
Huh? What is that?

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post #753 of 822 Old 09-01-2014, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
But at some point, digital must be converted to analog.
Of course and the right place to do that is as close to the listener as possible.


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I input the analog output of my Ayre and Oppo to an analog stereo preamp, a Parasound JC-2. While the JC-2 was away for a by-pass mod, I listened to stereo with the Oppo 105 connected directly to Proceed HPA amps. The sound was very good, but lacked the transparency of the Ayre, the ability to make a singer seem as though he's standing between the KEF 107/2s.

Two obvious problems - no level matching and not a bias-controlled listening test.


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I already anticipate that arnyk will belittle the piled higher and deeper appellation and tell everyone my judgement is flawed.
Let me be clear: My judgement is flawed by my limitations and my biases and it always has been that way. I've been an audiophile since I was 13, and I became aware of this not long after that phase of my life started.

Maybe you are that much better than I am, but... ?


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Nevertheless I post, because it should be obvious that bit-perfect from a disc player only leaves analog conversion to some other component, and that component may not be as capable as the analog processing of the disc player.
All things are possible, but back in the real world a good system design exploits the system's critical components such the DAC as much as possible.

Therefore, sharing the DAC among as many source components as possible makes a lot of sense especially if you believe that there are strong audible differences among DACs and you have to spend a lot of money to get a good one.

In my world sonically transparent DACs run about a buck in production quantities. There are other benefits to sharing the DAC and putting it as close to the listener as possible, and I still seek to obtain those benefits.
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post #754 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Two obvious problems - no level matching and not a bias-controlled listening test.
I was simply listening to music, not performing a listening test. No 2AFC nor plotting results as an ROC. Just listening to a particular disc and coming to the conclusion that I couldn't envision Pete Seeger sitting between the speakers with the Oppo as I could with the Ayre. To me, the Oppo sounded very good, just not as natural.

I became interested in audio when I first heard the Capital recording of Popular Instruments in Full Dimensional Sound on a neighbor's JBL corner loaded folded horn speaker driven by a amp he had designed. The recording was monaural, of course, and the amp had a separate box for the power supply with tubes that blinked with voltage demand. It was a revelation to a teenager. Then I began haunting the new "HiFi" shops in Westwood and Santa Monica, lusting after the Fisher and MacIntosh electronics, the Bozak Concert Grand, JBL folded horns, and ElectroVoice Patricians, speakers that would fall to the AR3 which was much more practical for the eventual stereo. So I've been around the block a few times too.

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post #755 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 11:40 AM
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I was simply listening to music, not performing a listening test. No 2AFC nor plotting results as an ROC. Just listening to a particular disc and coming to the conclusion that I couldn't envision Pete Seeger sitting between the speakers with the Oppo as I could with the Ayre.
Well, sure you did, but here's the thing: Match their output levels exactly, put a cloth over the front of them, and Pete Seeger will suddenly be in exactly the same place.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #756 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 12:46 PM
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You guys keep stating everything sounds the same as if you've tried evrything. How about you guys do your own DBT between those two units dbphd use and come up with actual graphs and tests instead of only basing your statement on theories.
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post #757 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 01:41 PM
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You guys keep stating everything sounds the same as if you've tried evrything. How about you guys do your own DBT between those two units dbphd use and come up with actual graphs and tests instead of only basing your statement on theories.
Because we don't have to, any more than we have to test every human on the planet to say that no one can hear to 30 kHz. That's what science is—a set of general principles based on empirical evidence. And we have plenty of empirical evidence that the differences among almost all DACs (and the exceptions have serious problems) is too small to be heard by humans. This is such a mundane fact that you can find it in science textbooks.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #758 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 04:15 PM
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The earth is flat, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

The universe revolves around Earth, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

There are living being in Venus, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

One can not travel beyond 50 mph without experiencing blackouts, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

Coelacanth already extinct, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

Pyramids were built by slaves, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

See where I'm going with this?

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post #759 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 05:01 PM
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Regarding audiophile cd players, this year I have spent much time w/ the following;
Rega- Saturn-R
Parasound- CD1
Aesthetix - Romulus
Audio Research (ARC)- CD9
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post #760 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
The earth is flat, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

The universe revolves around Earth, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

There are living being in Venus, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

One can not travel beyond 50 mph without experiencing blackouts, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

Coelacanth already extinct, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

Pyramids were built by slaves, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

See where I'm going with this?
Sure:

People can hear a difference between DACs, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #761 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 05:16 PM
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This is not directed at either side of the "argument" (subjective vs objective), but I found it pretty funny: Audiophiles

Enjoy!
Sheep

P.S. Be sure to hover over the image for an added bonus joke.
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post #762 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Pyramids were built by slaves, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.
Wait, the Pyramids weren't build by slaves? Count me an idiot.

Edit:I misread the line about life on Venus.
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Last edited by JustaSheep; 09-02-2014 at 08:25 PM.
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post #763 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 08:54 PM
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Well, sure you did, but here's the thing: Match their output levels exactly, put a cloth over the front of them, and Pete Seeger will suddenly be in exactly the same place.
I'm pretty sure in an earlier post I wrote that I know BS when I read it. I just don't understand how you can be so pedantic in your opinions. Is this going to devolve into a philosophy of science seminar? I simply reported my observation for what it's worth to a reader; to you it's worth nothing. I suppose you could argue that my observation leads astray those who don't realize that the sound from an Ayre C-5xeMP is in no way superior to that of the least expensive CD/SACD player they could find in any mall. Bits is bits, and all it takes is a $2 DAC to produce glorious analog.

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post #764 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
I'm pretty sure in an earlier post I wrote that I know BS when I read it. I just don't understand how you can be so pedantic in your opinions. Is this going to devolve into a philosophy of science seminar? I simply reported my observation for what it's worth to a reader; to you it's worth nothing. I suppose you could argue that my observation leads astray those who don't realize that the sound from an Ayre C-5xeMP is in no way superior to that of the least expensive CD/SACD player they could find in any mall. Bits is bits, and all it takes is a $2 DAC to produce glorious analog.

db
Why is your subjective experience of much interest?

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post #765 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
The earth is flat, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

The universe revolves around Earth, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

There are living being in Venus, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

One can not travel beyond 50 mph without experiencing blackouts, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

Coelacanth already extinct, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

Pyramids were built by slaves, anybody who doesn't believe that is an idiot... Until it was proven otherwise.

See where I'm going with this?
Multiverse?

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #766 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JustaSheep View Post
This is not directed at either side of the "argument" (subjective vs objective), but I found it pretty funny: Audiophiles

Enjoy!
Sheep

P.S. Be sure to hover over the image for an added bonus joke.
Good link, right on!

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post #767 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Why is your subjective experience of much interest?
Because it counts?

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post #768 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 10:15 PM
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Because it counts?
Maybe. But how much and why?

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post #769 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 10:22 PM
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Ha! ...And for who, and for all of us. ...Because the music matters ♪

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #770 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Ha! ...And for who, and for all of us. ...Because the music matters ♪
Music is fine, but his idea of what sounds good may or may not be valid....like food, he might just not have his tastes inline with my own....and his sonic memory is on the unbelievable side....

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post #771 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
...and his sonic memory is on the unbelievable side....
As I posted in an earlier post, memory for acoustic detail has no teleological value, whereas classification of acoustic events has. In an earlier post, someone asked me to post my experience with the Ayre, and that's what i did. Too bad if it didn't meet your standards.

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post #772 of 822 Old 09-02-2014, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
As I posted in an earlier post, memory for acoustic detail has no teleological value, whereas classification of acoustic events has. In an earlier post, someone asked me to post my experience with the Ayre, and that's what i did. Too bad if it didn't meet your standards.

db
Teleological value? This has something to do with existence of a god based on intelligent creation or something along those lines? Your subjective experience just means little to me...perhaps if we could sit in the same room and experience things together, maybe....but hopefully on more worthwhile pursuits than listening to cd players.

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post #773 of 822 Old 09-03-2014, 10:14 AM
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Teleological value? This has something to do with existence of a god based on intelligent creation or something along those lines?
Teleological not theological. In the history of evolution you might imagine why it would be important to classify the sounds of things that might be danger or that might be food, and to ignore acoustic details that could blur such classifications.

BTW, I don't give an RF whether you value my observations. I often find value in the observations and thoughts of others, especially if I'm considering a used component I can't personally hear beforehand. I don't expect laboratory evaluations, just observations. The Oppo 105 is the only component in my system that I bought new.

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post #774 of 822 Old 09-03-2014, 11:33 AM
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I often find value in the observations and thoughts of others, especially if I'm considering a used component I can't personally hear beforehand.
Which is your choice.

Our advice is that you generally shouldn't value the observations of others, because such observations tell you nothing about the equipment; they only tell you about the observer.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #775 of 822 Old 09-03-2014, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
Teleological not theological. In the history of evolution you might imagine why it would be important to classify the sounds of things that might be danger or that might be food, and to ignore acoustic details that could blur such classifications.

BTW, I don't give an RF whether you value my observations. I often find value in the observations and thoughts of others, especially if I'm considering a used component I can't personally hear beforehand. I don't expect laboratory evaluations, just observations. The Oppo 105 is the only component in my system that I bought new.

db
I found this as a top search result for teleological http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument

I like observations and thoughts but something like imagining what you mean by where Pete Seeger was sitting between your speakers is just not a helpful description, especially if not carefully a/b'd as I really doubt your sonic memory from unit to unit days apart means much at all. I don't get much from similar prose in "reviews". What makes the Ayre technically better would be more interesting....

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post #776 of 822 Old 09-03-2014, 12:23 PM
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I found this as a top search result for teleological http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument
You might have consulted Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary where you would have found definitions devoid of religion, and in the line I intended, i.e. design or development as evidenced by the end result. Survival is a crucial evolutionary element.

I presume the Ayre can't be technically superior, because it's already an established belief by arnyx that any disc player with a $2 DAC will produce glorious analog indistinguishable from that of any other, if you're blind and unbiassed.

To me it's like a switch if I can believe Pete Seeger or the Bill Evans trio or Mick Jagger is at the other end of the room. When I was considering the KEF 107/2s, John Atkinson's qualitative observation that the 107/2s were able to bring him into the music in a way few speakers can was most helpful to me.

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post #777 of 822 Old 09-03-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

See where I'm going with this?
Yes, off topic. Those of us who are trying to explain things to you have done bias controlled tests and we are reporting test results. Opinion and comparisons filled with hearing bias don't change the test results. They only make you feel better about things.
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post #778 of 822 Old 09-03-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
You might have consulted Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary where you would have found definitions devoid of religion, and in the line I intended, i.e. design or development as evidenced by the end result. Survival is a crucial evolutionary element.

I presume the Ayre can't be technically superior, because it's already an established belief by arnyx that any disc player with a $2 DAC will produce glorious analog indistinguishable from that of any other, if you're blind and unbiassed.

To me it's like a switch if I can believe Pete Seeger or the Bill Evans trio or Mick Jagger is at the other end of the room. When I was considering the KEF 107/2s, John Atkinson's qualitative observation that the 107/2s were able to bring him into the music in a way few speakers can was most helpful to me.

db
There is no question that hearing bias can be amazingly powerful.
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post #779 of 822 Old 09-03-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
You might have consulted Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary where you would have found definitions devoid of religion, and in the line I intended, i.e. design or development as evidenced by the end result. Survival is a crucial evolutionary element.

I presume the Ayre can't be technically superior, because it's already an established belief by arnyx that any disc player with a $2 DAC will produce glorious analog indistinguishable from that of any other, if you're blind and unbiassed.

To me it's like a switch if I can believe Pete Seeger or the Bill Evans trio or Mick Jagger is at the other end of the room. When I was considering the KEF 107/2s, John Atkinson's qualitative observation that the 107/2s were able to bring him into the music in a way few speakers can was most helpful to me.

db
Yes, I saw the other definition after you questioned it. I still don't quite see the connection with the cd player and teleological....

Then why pay so much for a bloody cd player? I use a cd player as a transport unless its with my old analog gear where I have no choice but seems some don't use the digital output. If the DAC is so important why are there not more discussions in the original ADC process as well during the recording process, or are there? I haven't seen any. Why is it only the back end that's important? Is the technology/hardware involved that different?

I go back to the food analogy....what may seem marvelous to you may not be to me...and I don't know if its your imagination or an agenda as some around here have to push product, so those kind of wine-reviewer descriptions from strangers don't do a lot for me as I've read so many of this type of description over the years from both the industry side as well as the consumer side that its hard to take them seriously at all....YMMV

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post #780 of 822 Old 09-03-2014, 08:58 PM
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Bonus video ::

1. Set the video playback to 1080p.
2. Use a pair of good quality headphones.
3. Or stream it directly to your hi-end audiophile hi-fi sound system.


Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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Reply CD Players & Dedicated Music Transports

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