Audiophile CD Player? Which One? - Page 30 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jdjaye View Post
Respectfully, I do not agree. But I won't try to change your opinion.

For the sake of any beginners:
I agree that different rooms have Individuals have individual tastes for different sound qualities, and different rooms sound differently. Which makes it frustrating to recreate the same sound at a different location. However, If near-reproduction of the original source material is the objective, then DAC technology does make a difference. DAC technology, which is a combination of hardware and software, has made significant strides in the last 5-10 years.

I'd expect that multichannel calibration tech has evolved similarly, but I don't really gave any experience in the area, so that would just be and educated guest.

For the beginners- if you can, try things before you buy them.
It's your time and money, so get what works best for you.

For the more experienced- if you disagree substantively with anything I have said, then please start a new thread. The purpose here is to help a beginner who asked a legitimate question, rather that confuse them with audio arcana, of which there is a surfeit.

Mine is not an opinion. It is a description of test results. Over the years I have never been able to have anyone successfully tell one DAC from another in a bias controlled listening test. I'm willing to bet serious money that you can't either. The amplifiers in modern AV receivers have specifications well below the level of audibility.


What all that means is that AVR amplifiers and DACs do not alter the music audibly so the two receivers will sound the same except for the effects of room calibration. So what you heard is either a difference in the room calibration software's approach to your room or hearing bias. There isn't any other option. Not an opinion. Test results.


I'm not suggesting you didn't hear a difference. I'm just correcting your statement about the causes of that difference. Beginners read tons of nonsense about the audible characteristics of DACs when those characteristics simply don't exist. It's good for the industry but I think people should know the truth before parting with their money. In your case, I suggest you stay with the receiver that produces a calibrated sound to your liking.
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post #872 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Mine is not an opinion. It is a description of test results. Over the years I have never been able to have anyone successfully tell one DAC from another in a bias controlled listening test.

Over the years, you have never been able to have anyone successfully tell one DAC from another? What exactly does that mean? Were you experimenting on people, or was that just lazy sentence structure? At any rate, please list several of the DACs that you were working with in these experiments.

Also, I notice that you share your personal experience, and then seem to infer that the matter is settled, based on your singular observation. That's making a massive assumption there, not a good idea.

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post #873 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 12:11 PM
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Get the same DVD brand as the TV so the remotes will work both - just a convenience factor.

I'm partial to the Marantz AVR warm sound- and how their Internal DACs sound- I think they sound better than the pioneers - but it is easy to figure out your own preference by going to best buy magnolia and listening for yourself their.

The AJ pioneer speakers are great sound for the buck - I own a pair. The question is if you are looking to optimize a 2 channel audio payback systems, or a multichannel AudioVideo system. With the object in mind, spend your $ in a way that aligns with the objective.

I'm a 2 channel guy- tv and dvd is nice, but the music is essential to me- so my recommendations are biased towards 2 channel musical optimization.

On my system, I think the Marantz AVR DAC sounds better than the
Sony DVD DAC .

Fyi- my last Sony receiver died after only 2 years, so I can't recommend Sony Audio gear anymore.

nB- These are my own views based on my experiences spending my own money.
Last Marantz I had was 40 years ago, it was a nice receiver (the 2285b?) but that was before DACs were a consideration; I went to separates in my 2ch system after selling the Marantz. Don't know about the whole brand's lineup having a particular signature, haven't heard them much in the meantime but didn't base my purchase on as much as specs that IIRC (who knows, I read Stereo Review and High Fidelity all the time....did Marantz have that reputation back then?). I haven't gone receiver "listening" and Magnolia probably wouldn't be much of an option

Does Marantz use only DACs with a particular sonic signature? Just the DAC and the rest of the dsp doesn't matter?

You never use dsp other than the dac chip and make equipment decisions based on some "pure" or "direct" pass through?

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post #874 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Over the years, you have never been able to have anyone successfully tell one DAC from another? What exactly does that mean? Were you experimenting on people, or was that just lazy sentence structure? At any rate, please list several of the DACs that you were working with in these experiments.

Also, I notice that you share your personal experience, and then seem to infer that the matter is settled, based on your singular observation. That's making a massive assumption there, not a good idea.
Correct. These tests involved a group of 10 people and around a dozen DACs. The most extreme example was a comparison between a Radio Shack portable CD player and an Audio Research CD player. No audible difference.


No, it isn't hard to swap them. The reason A/B tests don't show an audible difference is that there is no audible difference. The differences you heard originated from hearing bias and not from the equipment.


I write with confidence because I have actually done many, many bias controlled tests. You haven't done a single one so questioning my confidence seems a bit silly to me. Come back after you have some experience with bias controlled comparisons and then we can compare ideas.
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post #875 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 03:46 PM
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FMW, what is your main CD player or digital music server @ this moment in time?
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post #876 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 03:58 PM
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FMW, what is your main CD player or digital music server @ this moment in time?

A Logitech Squeezbox streaming from a hard drive on my local area network. All of my CD's are ripped to that drive. Why do you ask?
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post #877 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 04:10 PM
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A Logitech Squeezbox streaming from a hard drive on my local area network. All of my CD's are ripped to that drive. Why do you ask?
I was very curious to know from someone who performed many blind listening tests of DACs before.
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post #878 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 04:10 PM
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People still play CD's directly these days outside of a car ? ....... I just rip them to a hdd with a PC ODD or buy downloads and play or stream from hdd's and occasionally a PDP.

I've had a Sony ES SACD/CD player for good while I bought it in ~ 2002 but I don't use it much anymore it sounds good though IMO much better than all the other players I've owned .OTOH hdd can sound as good depending what it's playing to ofc ex, a pro interface and phones or a decent amp and speakers or discrete 192kHz sound card with a decent dac and op amps into a headphone amp then phones , play hdd into something not so good like an inexpensive AVR and that's how it will sound .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #879 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Correct. These tests involved a group of 10 people and around a dozen DACs. The most extreme example was a comparison between a Radio Shack portable CD player and an Audio Research CD player. No audible difference.


No, it isn't hard to swap them. The reason A/B tests don't show an audible difference is that there is no audible difference. The differences you heard originated from hearing bias and not from the equipment.


I write with confidence because I have actually done many, many bias controlled tests. You haven't done a single one so questioning my confidence seems a bit silly to me. Come back after you have some experience with bias controlled comparisons and then we can compare ideas.
Sorry, what? You say you tested with one group of 10 people? It seems you don't remember the brand and model of these DACs. Were these standalone DACs? Or are you talking about some kind of variety of DACs in receivers and cd players, etc? I don't recall Radio Shack making a standalone DAC.

Is one group of ten people enough to extrapolate from? Aren't you being a little arrogant there? Tell me about these many, many bias controlled tests. Were they all on yourself save for this one group of ten?
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post #880 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jdjaye View Post
...

I'm partial to the Marantz AVR warm sound-

....
Any AVR can be be altered with tone controls to sound warm.
I am sure the specs on that Marantz shows a flat FR, hence not warm with tone controls off.

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Originally Posted by jdjaye View Post
...

For the more experienced- if you disagree substantively with anything I have said, then please start a new thread. ..
Why do we need to do this? That would be disjointed response and to show to the new people where you are wrong.
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post #881 of 891 Old 01-25-2015, 08:12 PM
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Rather, the purpose is to spare the newbies the blather of people with the need to have the last word on something fairly subjective.
However, if that is what makes you feel self important...
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post #882 of 891 Old Yesterday, 01:59 AM
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Sorry, what? You say you tested with one group of 10 people? It seems you don't remember the brand and model of these DACs. Were these standalone DACs? Or are you talking about some kind of variety of DACs in receivers and cd players, etc? I don't recall Radio Shack making a standalone DAC.

Is one group of ten people enough to extrapolate from? Aren't you being a little arrogant there? Tell me about these many, many bias controlled tests. Were they all on yourself save for this one group of ten?

No problem. As soon as you complete some bias controlled tests, we'll get together and compare notes.
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post #883 of 891 Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM
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Rather, the purpose is to spare the newbies the blather of people with the need to have the last word on something fairly subjective.
However, if that is what makes you feel self important...
The more you understand electrical engineering, the more you realize that it's not nearly as subjective as the magazine reviews would like you to believe.
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post #884 of 891 Old Yesterday, 12:27 PM
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Rather, the purpose is to spare the newbies the blather of people with the need to have the last word on something fairly subjective.
However, if that is what makes you feel self important...
Look into the mirror to see who the newbie is. Read a lot of magazine reviews? Oddiophool sites where you congratulate each other on your consumer prowess? Tell us more about your cables that you seem to think have some special worth because you got charged 10x their value....LOL!

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post #885 of 891 Old Yesterday, 07:16 PM
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People still play CD's directly these days outside of a car ? .......

.
I do, all of the time at home.
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post #886 of 891 Old Yesterday, 07:26 PM
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No problem. As soon as you complete some bias controlled tests, we'll get together and compare notes.
Ah, I see. You don't want it known what DACs/models you were testing with, you're just hoping to float this grand experiment you did with a sample size of ten. But that's much too small to get any reliable results, and no research lab would dare publish any study with a sample size of ten. Good to see where you're coming from though.
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post #887 of 891 Old Yesterday, 07:32 PM
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Yup. I listen to physical CD at home. There is a CD player in every room. With 3,000+ CDs in my collection, it will be a waste if I don't use my CD.
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post #888 of 891 Old Yesterday, 08:02 PM
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I do, all of the time at home.
I did for years......... until HDD prices came way down and ip bandwidth went way up .☺☺

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #889 of 891 Old Yesterday, 08:12 PM
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I did for years......... until HDD prices came way down and ip bandwidth went way up .☺☺
Yep, ripped all my ~1K CD's to lossless so I can listen in any room in my apt. Works real good.
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post #890 of 891 Old Yesterday, 09:42 PM
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Yup. I listen to physical CD at home. There is a CD player in every room. With 3,000+ CDs in my collection, it will be a waste if I don't use my CD.
I too have a large music collection on CDs, and a CD player in every room. ...I'm still like a kid from yesterday.

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♦ As to which audiophile CD player; there are so many out there that it don't truly matter. ...And they come @ all price points for all type of people.
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post #891 of 891 Unread Today, 05:52 AM
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Ah, I see. You don't want it known what DACs/models you were testing with, you're just hoping to float this grand experiment you did with a sample size of ten. But that's much too small to get any reliable results, and no research lab would dare publish any study with a sample size of ten. Good to see where you're coming from though.

I'm not trying to float anything. I'm just posting on an internet forum and dealing with argumentative people. I already told you about a comparison between an very inexpensive and a very expensive DAC named by brand. You must have missed it. If you want more, get some experience yourself. I'm tired of you.
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