Audiophile CD Player? Which One? - Page 31 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #901 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 08:36 AM
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Well to anybody who has done pure blind listening tests,

A few years ago we did a test where we listened to the same 2 tracks over and over again, and asked the listeners to not try and describe the sound, but just which one they enjoyed more, After a number of cycles around, at random. the SONY DVP9000ES was consistently a favorite.

Sources ranged from a Laptop, as 29$ DVD player, to a Meitner.

Could a person tell one from the other , NO, but when listening to 2 tracks completely through, and, not trying to listen to any particular aspect of the sound quality, but just getting into the music and enjoying the experience, the SONY was picked more often than not.

Note that this was as blind as we could get, as the person swapping out the sources was not part of the listening group, and there were no visual indications to the listener.

The Meitner was the ultimate clear winner as once we put the system back in 5 channel mode nothing compared, but in 2 channel against the laptop and 29$ player the SONY DVP9000ES was a "better listening experience"


My 2 cents
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post #902 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 08:41 AM
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I just wanted to thank the members who take to task the claims of the other posters who can magically hear all these different amps and cd players and the like. You do a public service.

Like most of us here i once bought a stupid price cd player without engaging my brain. I hope that other people looking for what "cd player or amp should i buy" find these threads realise that they're about to blow a whole load of money on some voodoo and don't. A couple of hundred quid will get you a decent amp and cd player that should last for years. Don't listen to the people who think it all sounds diferent, there are pages and pages of why it doesn't and i'm not gonna repeat them.

I only joined just to thank the members who tell the truth and won't be debating voodoo, i'll leave that to 'those who can hear. I'm not really a hardware geek, as long as it works i'm happy to get on with listening and playing.

Good forum keep up the sterling work.

Suzy Creamcheese

Oh, can i suggest that those who listen with their eyes when they compare cd players and amps etc to play Call Any Vegetable by Zappa. Or better still, stop comparing equipment that doesn't need comparing and learn to love the one you got.
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post #903 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Hey, if it is true that's everything sounds the same, I should just buy some China made power amplifier on eBay at $100 instead of the internet craze brand Emotiva at $500, buy a $59 BD player instead of Oppo 105D at $1,100.

It is NOT about price justification. I can hear the difference in sound quality between a $20 wally world DVD player, vs $100 Sony BD player, vs Oppo 103D vs Oppo 105D and MBL at $10K. I ended up with the 103D because that's all I'm willing to spend. But going back to the sound quality difference? They are clearly there even listening through my low end system of merely Pioneer SC-85 receiver and Elite Atmos Andrew Jones speakers.
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Oh, can i suggest that those who listen with their eyes when they compare cd players and amps etc to play Call Any Vegetable by Zappa. Or better still, stop comparing equipment that doesn't need comparing and learn to love the one you got.
Interesting comparison of posts.
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post #904 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Hey, if it is true that's everything sounds the same, I should just buy some China made power amplifier on eBay at $100 instead of the internet craze brand Emotiva at $500, buy a $59 BD player instead of Oppo 105D at $1,100.

It is NOT about price justification. I can hear the difference in sound quality between a $20 wally world DVD player, vs $100 Sony BD player, vs Oppo 103D vs Oppo 105D and MBL at $10K. I ended up with the 103D because that's all I'm willing to spend. But going back to the sound quality difference? They are clearly there even listening through my low end system of merely Pioneer SC-85 receiver and Elite Atmos Andrew Jones speakers.
I found a Marantz carosel cd player that retailed for $500 in the mid nineties and I was able to pick it up for cheap. I wanted to see if there were any differences over my Oppo 95. I listened to several tracks from music I'm familiar with, and some of my brighter sounding stuff. Yeah, there was a difference. I like what Marantz was doing back then, that's for sure. Warmer sounding which did some gorgeous things with the mid range frequencies. But at the end of the day the Oppo had more detail or accuracy, which I preferred. Different strokes for different folks.
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post #905 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 11:18 AM
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From above- I wonder how the Sony DVP 9000ES holds up in 2015? It was a killer player upon its release way back when...
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post #906 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 11:21 AM
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David Susilo-

I concur w/ you, my friend. I, too, own 3000 CD/SACD titles and will never be w/o a CD/SACD player!
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post #907 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramoucheii View Post
Well to anybody who has done pure blind listening tests,

A few years ago we did a test where we listened to the same 2 tracks over and over again, and asked the listeners to not try and describe the sound, but just which one they enjoyed more, After a number of cycles around, at random. the SONY DVP9000ES was consistently a favorite.

Sources ranged from a Laptop, as 29$ DVD player, to a Meitner.

Could a person tell one from the other , NO, but when listening to 2 tracks completely through, and, not trying to listen to any particular aspect of the sound quality, but just getting into the music and enjoying the experience, the SONY was picked more often than not.

Note that this was as blind as we could get, as the person swapping out the sources was not part of the listening group, and there were no visual indications to the listener.

The Meitner was the ultimate clear winner as once we put the system back in 5 channel mode nothing compared, but in 2 channel against the laptop and 29$ player the SONY DVP9000ES was a "better listening experience"


My 2 cents

You failed to match levels adequately. The Sony had a little more output voltage. My 2 cents.
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post #908 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I listened to several tracks from music I'm familiar with, and some of my brighter sounding stuff. Yeah, there was a difference. I like what Marantz was doing back then, that's for sure. Warmer sounding which did some gorgeous things with the mid range frequencies. But at the end of the day the Oppo had more detail or accuracy, which I preferred. Different strokes for different folks.
Just curious, did you listen to them at unmatched levels?
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post #909 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 12:16 PM
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You failed to match levels adequately. The Sony had a little more output voltage. My 2 cents.
Actually that's not the case. He never specifically mentioned how the levels were matched, you're just assuming they weren't level, and I'm wondering how you know the exact output voltage of the non Sony players used.
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post #910 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 12:54 PM
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You failed to match levels adequately. The Sony had a little more output voltage. My 2 cents.
@FMW


I could go over the entire protocol that the test was set to, but It's Sunday morning and, I simply state that you are wrong, and perhaps should have asked if output levels were considered. So to now prempt your next question, the answer = YES.
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post #911 of 938 Old 02-15-2015, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Scaramoucheii View Post
@FMW


I could go over the entire protocol that the test was set to, but It's Sunday morning and, I simply state that you are wrong, and perhaps should have asked if output levels were considered. So to now prempt your next question, the answer = YES.

Not sure what Sunday has to do with it, but when you get around to it, more details of your setup/test would be interesting. Was this conducted in your place of employment with prospective consumers or fellow employees?
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post #912 of 938 Old 02-16-2015, 02:19 AM
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Actually that's not the case. He never specifically mentioned how the levels were matched, you're just assuming they weren't level, and I'm wondering how you know the exact output voltage of the non Sony players used.

I don't. I just threw in 2 cents that I thought were probably closer to the truth than his 2 cents. It is the most likely reason he heard what he heard.
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post #913 of 938 Old 02-16-2015, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Scaramoucheii View Post
@FMW


I could go over the entire protocol that the test was set to, but It's Sunday morning and, I simply state that you are wrong, and perhaps should have asked if output levels were considered. So to now prempt your next question, the answer = YES.

I don't have another question. I'm pretty confident that, if the test was blind, then there was a problem with either how it was conducted or the methodology for the level matching. In other words, I'm not convinced by your response because I've done a whole lot of this kind of testing. Level matching, for your information is done with a test tone and a volt meter.
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post #914 of 938 Old 02-16-2015, 12:23 PM
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Scaramoucheii's example is an outlier result, so based upon what we already know about hearing thresholds, the already very close uniformity of cd players measurement quality and previous testing examples, etc., it's reasonable to assume for the time being that an important element of testing was overlooked to account for those positive results. If he can fill in the missing details which cover all the necessary basis for a quality test, then perhaps further investigation is warranted.

Believers tend to interpret such skepticism as an intractable, "no matter what claims of evidence we present, you'll find some reason to dismiss it", which isn't the case. The fact of the matter is that there are many things which need to be properly accounted for before credibility can be determined. Just the nature of the beast, unfortunately.


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post #915 of 938 Old 02-16-2015, 07:49 PM
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Scaramoucheii's example is an outlier result, so based upon what we already know about hearing thresholds, the already very close uniformity of cd players measurement quality and previous testing examples, etc., it's reasonable to assume for the time being that an important element of testing was overlooked to account for those positive results. If he can fill in the missing details which cover all the necessary basis for a quality test, then perhaps further investigation is warranted.

Believers tend to interpret such skepticism as an intractable, "no matter what claims of evidence we present, you'll find some reason to dismiss it", which isn't the case. The fact of the matter is that there are many things which need to be properly accounted for before credibility can be determined. Just the nature of the beast, unfortunately.
That's a very non-scientific approach you are making. Tossing out a results simply because they don't line up with your preconceived notions. But here's the difference. Those of us who accept the differences that we hear, for the most part really don't care what the science religion group think is. You are free to believe whatever you want. But the science crowd searches out any post that doesn't meet with it's approval for attack or mockery. Kind of like an extremist would.

In a way it's so sad. You are missing out on so much of what you could be enjoying, but that's life I guess.
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post #916 of 938 Old 02-16-2015, 09:47 PM
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That's a very non-scientific approach you are making.
So are you saying that the scientific approach would be to assume that those results are valid until shown otherwise?

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Tossing out a results simply because they don't line up with your preconceived notions.
Not "tossing out the results" per se, just approaching the claims with great skepticism because they don't line up with the existing body of evidence. And if you read my post again, I allow for at least the possibility of legitimacy, provided that all the experimental "t's" and "i's" are crossed and dotted. That's merely a rational approach.


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But here's the difference. Those of us who accept the differences that we hear, for the most part really don't care what the science religion group think is. You are free to believe whatever you want. But the science crowd searches out any post that doesn't meet with it's approval for attack or mockery. Kind of like an extremist would.
And you in turn are also free to believe what you want, of course. Everyone must make up their own minds. I was once like you in that I used to hear differences in CD players or at least assume there would be differences so I listened for differences and sometimes heard them. I assumed such differences were a given since most forums, audio magazines and stereo store employees seemed to treat the question as if there was no question at all, i.e., CD players can and typically do sound different.

Then I eventually stumbled upon relative few places like this, where a fuller voice was also given to the opposing viewpoint. I resisted at first but eventually, those arguments began to make too much sense. Too many ducks were lining up in a row for me to keep on thinking there were actual audible differences. Differences that couldn't be explained by conscious and unconscious biases, level match differences, etc. And when you have a long history of human auditory research which showed what kind of thresholds of difference are necessary before our human hearing can detect differences and those thresholds are far higher than the measured differences between CD players, well, to me it's a bit of a slam dunk.

Now of course some take the position that one day some new measurement will be discovered and confirm that the audible-difference believers were right all along but until when and if that day ever comes, I'll continue to take the Occam's Razor approach to the question. Just seems a whole lot more plausible based upon my reading of the comparative evidence. You may continue to come to a different conclusion. I just don't see it making a whole lot of sense but I guess you feel the same about my position too.

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In a way it's so sad. You are missing out on so much of what you could be enjoying, but that's life I guess.
"missing out on so much"? melodramatic much?? I gotta think that's a little frustration speaking.

In the course of my life, the most passionate music fans I've encountered have had very little correlation to how much time, money and attention they've paid to their equipment. Among defenders of CD players, DACS, cables, etc., I see at least as much or more passion for equipment as I do for music. That's not to suggest that they don't also care about music. But I do sometimes wonder if and to what extent their enjoyment might be curtailed if the "hobby" aspect was stripped away from them.

In the spirit of detente, I'll let you have the last word on the subject. No matter how vehemently disagreeable I might come to find your reply.
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post #917 of 938 Old 02-16-2015, 10:57 PM
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There are some cute specimens here; I like Cambridge Azur CD players best.
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post #918 of 938 Old 02-16-2015, 11:00 PM
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There are some cute specimens here; I like Cambridge Azur CD players best.
Damn straight!
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post #919 of 938 Old 02-17-2015, 05:34 AM
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That's a very non-scientific approach you are making. Tossing out a results simply because they don't line up with your preconceived notions. But here's the difference. Those of us who accept the differences that we hear, for the most part really don't care what the science religion group think is. You are free to believe whatever you want. But the science crowd searches out any post that doesn't meet with it's approval for attack or mockery. Kind of like an extremist would.

In a way it's so sad. You are missing out on so much of what you could be enjoying, but that's life I guess.

Cruel Inventions said it very well. But let me address the last sentence. I spent more money on audio gear than automobiles for several decades on the treadmill to find some sort of nirvana as described in the audio press.


When the bias controlled testing project ended, I sold all the high end gear and replaced it with gear that had proven to be sonically equal but sensible during the tests. Since that time, I've never worried about sonic perfection and I've never listened to music in order to judge its sound. I listen to the music for its musical content. The concept of "critical listening" is a total head scratcher for me. I can't imagine why anybody would want to do that.


The result has been much more music listening and much more enjoyment from it because I'm freed from the treadmill of sound quality. My current systems (I have 4 of them) are all made up of moderately priced but accurately performing equipment. There is no doubt that there are many better sounding systems than mine but I'm confident that the main system, at least, sounds 90% as good as those that cost more than cars. I have decades of experience with the high end as a basis for the confidence. I get outstanding sound quality and never have to worry about the equipment. I don't upgrade things. I don't obsess about numbers. I just enjoy the music. These days it is a modest home theater in our family room and I enjoy the movies as well.


In a nutshell, your last sentence suggests that unless one follows the audiophile way, there is something missing. And it is true. What is missing is large purchases, obsessive listening and the desire for constant upgrades. What is not missing is great sound and great music. So I reject the premise of the final sentence completely. I believe the opposite is true.
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post #920 of 938 Old 02-17-2015, 09:00 AM
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The only thing I'll say to your post is, you sure get up early, dude!
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The only thing I'll say to your post is, you sure get up early, dude!
That must've been a real good post then.
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post #922 of 938 Old 02-17-2015, 10:42 AM
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The only thing I'll say to your post is, you sure get up early, dude!
Well that is certainly an effective debate technique. I have no comeback since I don't consider 8:34 AM to be all that early.
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post #923 of 938 Old 02-17-2015, 02:27 PM
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Then you must be in the east cost time zone, I am in the west. It was an attempt to not debate any further. Apparently I failed.
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Yes, the Cambridge Audio spinners are good, indeed
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As is the NAD 565BEE
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post #926 of 938 Old 02-17-2015, 04:59 PM
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Yes, the Cambridge Audio spinners are good, indeed
Ha! Someone agrees. ...And they up-sample too.
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post #927 of 938 Old 02-27-2015, 03:12 PM
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My old CD player was funky

Replaced it with a used Numark dual tray CD player from Guitar Center... 21 pounds of heft, huge displays, giant buttons and no wear (rack mounted and not used in a studio)

It is my garage/man cave CD player to play....CDs! Since the garage is more for entertainment or work, the dual tray works well and I can read the display in the dark as it was made to operate in darkness. The giant back lit buttons are great in that mode.

Does it sound different from the old Sony? Well, no--it sounds like a CD player. Hooked it up for testing inside my house and it sounded like my BluRay player.

The last time I did blind ABX testing on CD players was the early 90's and us four people tried like mad to tell the difference between 3 players and could not. After that and amp testing where we could not tell the difference...even tried speaker wire and no difference. Since speakers we could tell the difference, I have zeroed in on that factor.

These days, it is hard to FIND a CD player or a player that does not need a remote to do basic functions. Time to convert 500 CDs to computer files before this CD player dies.

Who would of thought there are more record players than CD decks in the 21st Century....weird world! Live long and prosper.
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post #928 of 938 Old 02-28-2015, 09:00 AM
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Not sure about that, but there certainly are a growing number of turntables, that's for sure.
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post #929 of 938 Old 03-01-2015, 02:36 PM
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Anyone has compared the sound of the Audiolab 8200cd to a Cambridge Audio 851c , wich are both supossed to have maybe a sound that is neutral/analytic and forward sound ?

Do they sound remotely similar ? i am looking for a CD player with maybe a slighty more agressive than my Marantz CD6005...and these 2 , made me curious also because they have several Filters than change the sound slighty...
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post #930 of 938 Old 03-06-2015, 10:19 PM
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J_P_P, how long have you had the Marantz, and what are thoughts on it so far?
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