Audiophile CD Player? Which One? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 862 Old 08-26-2013, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Does that answer your question?
Or..you can not hear me?... Which would explain a lot....

Excuse me? I'm sorry i didn't reply to your post within your alloted time before passing judgment that I am somehow deaf. You may want to check your attitude before hitting that "reply" button.

And, yes it does. But yet I couldn't help but notice how you slung mud at those who suggested the term DBT.
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A subtle or moderate change is huge to a critical listener...

I'm sorry, I didn't understand your terminology. I apparently made the erroneous assumption that your term "huge" did not mean "subtle" or "moderate". What would be your real definition of "huge"? Massive? Enormous? smile.gif
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Heard all about it...don't care..don't matter..it only matters what I hear..and how I hear it
I have nothing to prove..I already proved it to myself..and that is all that matters..end of story...it just really gets me going on here,when people say EVERYTHING sounds the same...amps/DACs/cables..etc..when they ALL do not

You state it only matters what you hear.

If you don't agree with others viewpoints, and have no interest in hearing others viewpoints (because they make you angry) and you want to remain close minded, then why even bother engaging in a discourse? It seems you have no desire to have your attitudes, beliefs, or experiences challenged. I for one would not bother with the increase in blood pressure.
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post #182 of 862 Old 08-26-2013, 08:57 PM
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My veiwpoints on this subject has been going on for years..im not close minded..yrs and yrs of testing
and being involved in A/V..i have already come to the conclusions that i now believe in...i also was skeptical years ago..good amplification, better speakers..i THOUGHT that was all you needed
I was wrong...i have been down this road many times...and like i said before,all you have to do is just listen ...if you can not hear a difference..then good for you!.. save some money...but when you do hear a improvement..its money well spent.
I really do not know what the big deal is...i voice my opinion..you voice yours...you are trying to make me into a non believer ..by telling me i can not possible hear a difference ..im trying to tell you that i DO hear a difference..its right in front of me!
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post #183 of 862 Old 08-26-2013, 09:45 PM
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Esh, if you are not a closed minded person, and you believe you can identify differences with your ears, then prove it to all us objectivists by taking a dbt! Most of us would be ecstatic if you did, it would prove us wrong, and give us something to work toward. Until you do nothing you say on the topic matters. It is well known and well studied on how the brain works in regards to bias, and you are no doubt falling victim to your own bias, and the worst part is your staunch denial of such, and you spout off your nonsense to persuade others to fall victim to the same garbage.

Prove your claims or get off your box, simple as that! Anyone with an open mind would not have any issues taking a dbt. If wish to stay ignorant as to how modern audio reproduction works that is your prerogative, but expect to be challanged, questioned and otherwise debunked whenever you voice your claims.
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post #184 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

My veiwpoints on this subject has been going on for years..im not close minded..yrs and yrs of testing
and being involved in A/V..i have already come to the conclusions that i now believe in...i also was skeptical years ago..good amplification, better speakers..i THOUGHT that was all you needed
I was wrong...i have been down this road many times...and like i said before,all you have to do is just listen ...if you can not hear a difference..then good for you!.. save some money...but when you do hear a improvement..its money well spent.
I really do not know what the big deal is...i voice my opinion..you voice yours...you are trying to make me into a non believer ..by telling me i can not possible hear a difference ..im trying to tell you that i DO hear a difference..its right in front of me!

I see a post reflecting a closed mind when it comes to improved listening test technology over the same-old, same-old non-level-matched, non-time-synched, sighted evaluations. AKA the golden-eared audiophile's security blanket.
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post #185 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

(bold my emphasis) If that were true - answer this; If there were huge differences in the sound, would they not be obvious in a double blind test? I'm talking 'huge differences' as you claim - not subtle, or even moderate. Huge.

Really, I want for you to consider that question and answer that.
I will buy you a plane ticket to Miami..you come over and I will prove there is HUGE differences in the sound you hear ...changing nothing but speaker cables.
There is NO WAY you can tell me I'm hearing things..we are talking about something we do 24/7 365 days a year...and I just don't go around hearing things!
Its like trying to describe a rainbow to a blind person.

 

Esh, I am full of admiration for your passion wrt to music. Your passion is clear to see when reading that post of yours above.

 

But... (you knew there had to be a 'but', right? LOL)... when you say that a speaker cable makes the sort of difference you describe here, then all your credibility goes flying out of the window.

 

The reason is that there is no way in all of known science for this 'huge difference' to occur. Speaker cables have no 'magic' properties. The properties they do have (resistance, capacitance, inductance) are well understood.

 

Of these properties, resistance is the only one we need to worry about. That is because by comparison with the capacitance and inductance of the speaker itself, the capacitance and inductance of the wire are irrelevant in reality.  What this boils down to is that so long as the resistance of the wire is adequate in relation to its length and the impedance of the speaker, then nothing else is going to impact on the ability of the wire to carry the current.

 

So, unless the cables you were using before were insanely thin (and I am guessing not) or insanely long ( and I am guessing not) then replacing them with another wire with suitable resistance characteristics will not make the least difference to the ability of the wire to carry the current along its length with no problems. You are never likely to need wire of more than 14 AWG in a normal home setup, and if you went to 12 AWG for 'peace of mind' it's unlikely to make any difference, other than being so thick it can be hard to work with.

 

All of this is simple, well-understood science that has stood unchallenged for decades. 

 

Why is copper used?  Because it has low resistance and is relatively affordable. Silver has even lower resistance than copper - but it is very expensive and the only benefit would be that it would let you use a thinner wire for the same result. No real benefit at all. Gold, commonly used in 'audiophile' connectors actually has higher resistance than copper or silver - but it does not oxidise, which can be a benefit of sorts - but mostly its marketing. You won’t find gold connectors in Professional studios for example. 

 

Skin effect?  Yes, this is an acknowledged effect where high frequencies tend to travel on the outer surface of the cable. It is a significant issue. BUT - only for radio frequencies travelling over miles of distance (eg along high power electrical transmission cables). In audio applications where the audio-frequency signal travels not for miles but for feet, skin effect has no audible consequences whatsoever. 

 

All the other junk perpetrated by the marketing departments of expensive speaker cable manufacturers also falls apart when subjected to scientific scrutiny.

 

The best, full explanation of all of this that I have ever seen is here:

 

Speaker Wire - A History, by Roger Russell

 

Just have a read of it. It isn't heavy-going at all and IMO you owe it to yourself to read it and gain an understanding of how easy it is to mislead people if you are in the business of selling 'high end' exotic speaker wire.

 

EDIT: I forgot to add this:  Esh, in your speaker voice coils there is some ordinary, standard copper wire. There is way, way more of this wire in the voice coil than in the length of wire you use to connect your speaker cables between your amp and speakers. So why doesn’t all this 'ordinary' copper wire in the speaker itself just 'remove' the effect of the 'special wire' which connects the speaker to the amp?  Any views?

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post #186 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

My veiwpoints on this subject has been going on for years..im not close minded..yrs and yrs of testing
and being involved in A/V..i have already come to the conclusions that i now believe in...i also was skeptical years ago..good amplification, better speakers..i THOUGHT that was all you needed
I was wrong...i have been down this road many times...and like i said before,all you have to do is just listen ...if you can not hear a difference..then good for you!.. save some money...but when you do hear a improvement..its money well spent.
I really do not know what the big deal is...i voice my opinion..you voice yours...you are trying to make me into a non believer ..by telling me i can not possible hear a difference ..im trying to tell you that i DO hear a difference..its right in front of me!

It may be useful for you to understand that some of us - like me - have years and years of sighted listening and similar attitudes to yours about how things sound. Personally, I started with HiFi in the mid 1950's so I have some experience as well. Some of us have learned the truth about how our brains can cause hearing bias. That doesn't mean that we didn't believe like you do prior to that or that we couldn't "hear" those subtle differences. It just means that our biases affect us differently after experiencing bias controlled listening. Just as you expect some component to sound better, we do not expect it to sound better. You hear a difference and we don't. It is the expectation that causes that, not the sound. We've done it your way and we understand it. You haven't done it our way and you don't understand it. Why not try our way? You will learn a lot about hearing if you do. Then you can do whatever you like with more experience and knowledge than you had before.
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post #187 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 07:22 AM
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I understand..and respect your veiws.
Its no placebo..i go into these tests expecting to hear no difference....but i do!.. its real..its there!
Im at work now..gotta go..talk later!
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post #188 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 08:01 AM
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Its no placebo..i go into these tests expecting to hear no difference....but i do!.. its real..its there!
!

Since you use no experimental controls, the probability that your perceptions are affected by expectation bias is extremely high, even certain.

If you truly expect to hear no difference, then your results should not be overwhelmingly false positives.

If its real, why not confirm that with level matched, time synched blind tests?

If you only knew how many times I have heard the same excuses about "Its no placebo..i go into these tests expecting to hear no difference....but i do!.. its real..its there!" and then found out that without sighted cues, they end up guessing randomly in a real world test.

Looking back at 100's of people who have done DBTs, at least 1/3 say exactly the same thing, but are convinced otherwise once they actually do some DBTs.
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post #189 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

I understand..and respect your veiws.
Its no placebo..i go into these tests expecting to hear no difference....but i do!.. its real..its there!
Im at work now..gotta go..talk later!

It sounds like a broken record but do the bias controlled tests. You will discover what is going on with your perceptions when you do. There is no point in telling us it is real because we know better. We have done the tests. We've encountered many audiophiles like you and we have even been in your shoes. Do the tests.
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post #190 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 06:04 PM
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Your tests are broken. Equipment that you use is sub-par and listeners are biased in proving the 'there is no spoon' myth.
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post #191 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 06:15 PM
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Your tests are broken. Equipment that you use is sub-par and listeners are biased in proving the 'there is no spoon' myth.

Just what equipment is sub-par? I'm confused.

And how are listeners biased to prove 'there is no spoon'? In the limited controlled-listening tests I've done (compared a CD player with a DVD player; compared two amps at very high levels; compared a dedicated amp, an AVR, an integrated amp, and an old stereo receiver), I found two cases where something sounded different (two amps at very high levels were quite different, and the old stereo receiver was noticeably different from the amp, AVR, and integrated). If I were so biased as you say, why so many positive results for me (relative to my low total testing)?
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post #192 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 06:15 PM
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Your tests are broken. Equipment that you use is sub-par and listeners are biased in proving the 'there is no spoon' myth.

How would they be biased when they have no idea which unit under test is playing at any one time?

 

Which equipment is sub-par? By what measure is it sub-par?  Can you provide some links to evidence of this?

 

In what way are the tests broken? Can you provide some links to evidence of the way the tests are broken?  Does this apply to all of the thousands of tests conducted to date?  Why is it that only you have noticed this?

 

Which ABX DBT tests did you attend?  Did you point out to the organisers that the tests were broken and the equipment was sub-par?  What did the other test participants think?

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post #193 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 06:30 PM
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Equipment that you use is sub-par and listeners are biased
If that's the case, why couldn't the owner of a Florida high-end salon tell the difference between his own pair of Pass Labs monoblocks and a Yamaha integrated amp in his own system? (Google "Sunshine Trials" for the details.)

His excuse at the time was that he was hung over. (He failed again the next day, too.) Your excuses are no better.
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post #194 of 862 Old 08-27-2013, 06:52 PM
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Your tests are broken. Equipment that you use is sub-par and listeners are biased in proving the 'there is no spoon' myth.

Nonsense. Our tests involved high end equipment - names like Audio Research and Krell. Most of the panel members were more interested in proving that they could hear the differences because they were "golden ears." Stop your nonsensical criticism and go do some bias controlled tests. Then you will some experience appropriate for responding to us. In the meantime you are wasting your time because we know better.
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post #195 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 05:45 AM
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Your tests are broken.

Yours aren't?

In another thread, you revealed that your L & R speakers are Klipsch RF 63s

According to an independent source, they have the following frequency response: - about +/- 6 dB from 50-15 Khz while mine are just as good if not a little better.



I own a pair of Infinity P363s which the same source gives the following as its frequency response:



Your speakers have no smoother frequency response than my speakers. Your speakers appear to be mystery meat when it comes to nonlinear distortion, while mine are exceptional clean:



Touche!

If your EE makes you so super-competent, why can't you do a proper bias-controlled listening test? I suspect that you are afraid to attempt doing a good listening test because you either can't do it, or fear the results.
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Equipment that you use is sub-par

Is there an echo in this room?

If your equipment has such great resolving power, why can't you do a proper listening test with it that yields more sensitive results?
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and listeners are biased in proving the 'there is no spoon' myth.

Since you work with no bias controls, the apparent fact that your listeners are biased towards proving there is a difference invalidates your results. Repeat your tests with adequate bias controls, and we'll see where that puts you.
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post #196 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 07:09 AM
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Thank god for arnyk and a few others who try to put some sense in this kind of topic. I don't think I'd have the patience to keep explaining things to people who are too close minded to listen.
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post #197 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 10:35 AM
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Thank god for arnyk and a few others who try to put some sense in this kind of topic. I don't think I'd have the patience to keep explaining things to people who are too close minded to listen.

It's pretty interesting. We've been where the subjective audiophiles have been. We have more experience at it than they do. They have zero experience with bias controlled listening yet they have the gall to tell us they know better. It is truly amazing how people cling to their beliefs and are unwilling even to test them. Not much we can do for them if they won't cooperate. These folks are better off at Audio Asylum where they find folks with the same inexperience and beliefs and where even the mention of hearing bias is not allowed. At least we're willing to have a discussion with them despite their unwillingness to have a discussion with us.
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post #198 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 04:11 PM
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It's pretty interesting. We've been where the subjective audiophiles have been. We have more experience at it than they do. They have zero experience with bias controlled listening yet they have the gall to tell us they know better. It is truly amazing how people cling to their beliefs and are unwilling even to test them. Not much we can do for them if they won't cooperate. These folks are better off at Audio Asylum where they find folks with the same inexperience and beliefs and where even the mention of hearing bias is not allowed. At least we're willing to have a discussion with them despite their unwillingness to have a discussion with us.

Now that is absolutely hilarious.... But..I guess we will leave it at that..
...hey..you guys don't work for ...say,like the c.I.a. or anything do you?
....none of this matters except for the individual actually listening to his/her
Own setup...why should it matter what it sounds like to someone 200 miles+ away
I think we just need to stop a never ending battle...and just sit and relax...and listen.....closely!
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post #199 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 04:24 PM
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@esh516... they will never know what they are missing.
It's like fighting to explain to a bunch of blind people what light is, and they tell you that according to their specialized tests, there is no such thing and therefore you must be crazy.
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post #200 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 04:28 PM
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Yours aren't?
In another thread, you revealed that your L & R speakers are Klipsch RF 63s
Yes and as power driver a Denon AVR3805. But, like I said, when I compare two players, I use headphones. I bought the speakers before I heard a pair of good headphones, when I was still believing others on the net, instead of my own ears.
And when I do sighted evaluation, I am not confused by the fact that speakers cost was 12 times more than my headphones. I can be sincere to myself. You assume that everyone that does a sighted listening has a hidden agenda to lie about what he hears, based on what he sees.

I would be happy to help you in measuring your listening setup as baseline of your future tests. There is no point in doing all that listening work when you limit the real output to 10 bit of resolution.

PS: As for your speakers measurements, I can say exactly what you usually say: 'that's just marketing lies, you cannot believe that! Your three way crossover will introduce more artifacts than is shown in those graphs!'
On the other hand I listen mostly to rock music, and maybe that makes a lot of difference. Linearity at 10dB is sufficient, as long as I have my high-end (cymbals) not muddied by mids (guitars/voice).
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post #201 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 05:52 PM
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@esh516... they will never know what they are missing.
It's like fighting to explain to a bunch of blind people what light is, and they tell you that according to their specialized tests, there is no such thing and therefore you must be crazy.

But I do know what I am missing. I've owned systems that would walk all over yours.
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post #202 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 06:44 PM
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...well..I have come to the fact that,my system is creating some paranormal activity..I truly hear things that are not there..well not suppose to be there..
It can't be possible!.. I have called a specialist from Jamaica to lift this curse..I'm here swapping speaker cable back and forth...just shaking my head...
Will report back....
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post #203 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 06:46 PM
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But I do know what I am missing. I've owned systems that would walk all over yours.
Ohhhh....so there is a difference!
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post #204 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 07:33 PM
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...well..I have come to the fact that,my system is creating some paranormal activity..I truly hear things that are not there..well not suppose to be there..

Not paranormal. Hearing things that are not there is normal human behavior.

The McGurk effect is an example of hearing words that are not being said.

Your post appears to show that you cannot be educated. You were informed of the McGurk effect in this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463955/i-love-my-2-channel-setup/90#post_23612624

That was only 2 weeks and 5 days ago. Yet you now act like you never heard of it. What is wrong with you? Or, are you just trying to be irritating?
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post #205 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 07:42 PM
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And when I do sighted evaluation, I am not confused by the fact that speakers cost was 12 times more than my headphones.

Prove that you are not confused. How do we know that you are not pretending to not be confused, but actually are confused?
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You assume that everyone that does a sighted listening has a hidden agenda to lie about what he hears, based on what he sees.

You seem to believe that you can read my mind.

No I don't believe that everyone that does a sighted listening has a hidden agenda to lie about what he hears, based on what he sees. What I know to be true is that most people who do sighted evaluations simply don't know any better. The definition of lying is knowing better, but still making false claims.

I think you may be in denial, which is again common human behavior.

You seem to be very poorly informed - you don't seem to believe that denial is common human behavior, you seem to believe that you can read my mind, and you seem to not understand how pervasive human bias actually is.

So here's the remaining question - with all of these shortcomings in spite of many learned attempts to educate you, can you walk and chew gum at the same time? ;-)
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post #206 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 07:43 PM
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But I do know what I am missing. I've owned systems that would walk all over yours.
Ohhhh....so there is a difference!

Yes, many of us have made the same mistake you are now making and have had overpriced stereo gear that did not perform any better despite false claims made by reviewers and manufacturers.
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post #207 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Not paranormal. Hearing things that are not there is normal human behavior.





The McGurk effect is an example of hearing words that are not being said.

Your post appears to show that you cannot be educated. You were informed of the McGurk effect in this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463955/i-love-my-2-channel-setup/90#post_23612624

That was only 2 weeks and 5 days ago. Yet you now act like you never heard of it. What is wrong with you? Or, are you just trying to be irritating?
Well..good evening too you also..now I really am hearing things that really should not be there..
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post #208 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 08:25 PM
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I would rather be irritating..than be insulted
What's wrong with you!
And I don't care about no Dr.McGruff report
I do not need someone telling me what I do or do not hear..or how to hear..only I can decide...
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post #209 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 08:36 PM
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Yes, many of us have made the same mistake you are now making and have had overpriced stereo gear that did not perform any better despite false claims made by reviewers and manufacturers.
I'm very sorry for you...the above remark has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read..
You seem to just want to knock down the whole A/V community by just telling everyone..that all there gear is just junk..krell or Casio...its all the same...your remarks just prove to me that this hobby is not something your very Intrested in...
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post #210 of 862 Old 08-28-2013, 09:07 PM
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I do not need someone telling me what I do or do not hear..or how to hear..only I can decide...

UndersAVS and beaveav like this.
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