Is There an Audible Difference Between High End CD Transports and Modest/Cheap CD Players? - Page 13 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 450 Old 01-05-2015, 05:12 PM
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Same area IIRC the MIT cable guy is from, too. Who knows if he won't say directly nor talk about how he demonstrates what he says happens....
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post #362 of 450 Old 01-05-2015, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FolsomAudio View Post
.... This forum appears too hostile for my liking. ....
I think I see. You like a pacifist audio web site that doesn't challenge but accept everything posted especially what may be an authority figure???
Plenty around; good luck.
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post #363 of 450 Old 01-05-2015, 08:52 PM
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Straight answer would get you further than evasive ones and playing word game. That tends to happen to business founders who won't give straight answer. This is a public forum and for you to behave in this fashion in front of the public won't cast positive light on your business. You should think about that.
If you want to advertise on this forum, there is a way to do it legitimately. Contact the authority.
Man, take it easy.

The folsom guy isn't trying to advertise anything, it was only after the mob googled him and did some sleuthing, he reluctantly offered up some background info. Folsom sounds like a pretty cool dude to me, he likes to build stuff, he enjoys himself. Spkr, looking at your post history, you remind me of Moriarty. always with the negative waves.

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post #364 of 450 Old 01-05-2015, 11:52 PM
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Man, take it easy.

The folsom guy isn't trying to advertise anything, it was only after the mob googled him and did some sleuthing, he reluctantly offered up some background info. Folsom sounds like a pretty cool dude to me, he likes to build stuff, he enjoys himself. Spkr, looking at your post history, you remind me of Moriarty. always with the negative waves.
Looks like this forum is too hostile for your liking.
As someone already mentioned, there are many pacifist audio web sites out there for those with such taste.
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post #365 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by HaroldKumar View Post
Man, take it easy.

The folsom guy isn't trying to advertise anything, it was only after the mob googled him and did some sleuthing, he reluctantly offered up some background info. Folsom sounds like a pretty cool dude to me, he likes to build stuff, he enjoys himself. Spkr, looking at your post history, you remind me of Moriarty. always with the negative waves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ

He is trying to sell ideas. Unfortunately, when people come here and post misinformation, we challenge that information because we don't want beginners to audio to be misinformed. Personally, I've never encountered a hobby with more misinformation in my fairly long life. It is amazing what people will believe in the face of reality. I think people are just calling a spade a spade.
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post #366 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
He is trying to sell ideas. Unfortunately, when people come here and post misinformation, we challenge that information because we don't want beginners to audio to be misinformed. Personally, I've never encountered a hobby with more misinformation in my fairly long life. It is amazing what people will believe in the face of reality.
What's appalling is that some find that acceptable and even try to defend that as seen above.
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post #367 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 11:58 AM
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What I find appalling about this thread is the viciousness of the postings by a small group who repeatedly post here. When I see their posts elsewhere, they are rarely so vicious. But at this site, it's like a religious gathering, and if you aren't a believer you're branded a heretic.

db
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post #368 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
What I find appalling about this thread is the viciousness of the postings by a small group who repeatedly post here. When I see their posts elsewhere, they are rarely so vicious. But at this site, it's like a religious gathering, and if you aren't a believer you're branded a heretic.

db

You are bound to get some backlash when you post misinformation. There are plenty of websites where your brand of comment is welcome. Here we tend to deal with science and reality. Sorry.
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post #369 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 01:33 PM
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You are bound to get some backlash when you post misinformation. There are plenty of websites where your brand of comment is welcome. Here we tend to deal with science and reality. Sorry.
What misinformation? I believe my guilty act was commenting that the used Ayre C-5xeMP I had just purchased sounds superb, especially with CDs, to which i received the castigation that it could sound no better than the least expensive disc player, because they all sound the same in "unbiased" listening tests. But when asked for documentation of those tests by skeptical posters, there has been just a lot of handwaving by the self-proclaimed experts. I was surprised when this thread showed up in my user CP this morning, because I thought I had deleted it. But I see you and your cohort are still at it. Has your work ever been published in a major referred journal? Mine has, in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America.

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post #370 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
What I find appalling about this thread is the viciousness of the postings by a small group who repeatedly post here. When I see their posts elsewhere, they are rarely so vicious. But at this site, it's like a religious gathering, and if you aren't a believer you're branded a heretic.
Can you quote a few examples of those?
If a difference between forums is appalling to you, then you've got a problem with the world, not this forum.
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post #371 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 01:56 PM
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Mine has, in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America.

db

So you have a published paper that shows audible differences between optical disc players in a bias controlled listening comparison? I've never heard of such a thing. Tell me more.
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post #372 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 05:21 PM
 
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They're highly suggestible in an ABX setting where there's only A or B. Given our audio memory I'd still say ABX is ultimately very poor. Familiarity is a stronger ability than any ABX form when it comes to our ability to "have an audio memory".
How does one compare two audio sources without relying on memory?

How can you say that something sounds better without knowing what they both sound like at the same time, thus relying on memory?
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post #373 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 05:27 PM
 
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What misinformation? I believe my guilty act was commenting that the used Ayre C-5xeMP I had just purchased sounds superb, especially with CDs, to which i received the castigation that it could sound no better than the least expensive disc player, because they all sound the same in "unbiased" listening tests. But when asked for documentation of those tests by skeptical posters, there has been just a lot of handwaving by the self-proclaimed experts. I was surprised when this thread showed up in my user CP this morning, because I thought I had deleted it. But I see you and your cohort are still at it. Has your work ever been published in a major referred journal? Mine has, in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America.
The fact that you've had a paper printed in the JASA is only relevant if that paper describes work that is relevant to the topic of this thread. Please explain while providing specifics.

To explain my question, here are the articles in the current JASA

Application of subharmonics for active sound design of electric vehicles

Requirements for the evaluation of computational speech segregation systems

Semi-analytical computation of acoustic scattering by spheroids and disks

Dissipation of acoustic-gravity waves: An asymptotic approach

Low-frequency vocalizations of sei whales (Balaenoptera borealis) in the Southern Ocean

Selective adaptation in sound lateralization is not due to a repulsion effect

For more details here is a link the the above and brief descriptions of the articles: http://scitation.aip.org/content/asa....x-aip-live-06

I frankly can't see how any of these articles are relevant to this thread, particularly the one about whales. Please explain how they are relevant.
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post #374 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 05:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post
I have been told that CD player is just that - a CD player. No matter how much you pay for a player (well let say starting at $100 and up) the sound will remain the same. The manufacturers will claim redefining laws of physics and all that nonsense. But still, there will be no AUDIBLE difference between a garden variety $100 Sony CD player and the likes of these $12,000 beauties below.





Is this true? Provided we are sampling the same CD/SACD and audio system is of an elite level to pickup the difference, if there is any.
In general the best way to use an optical disc player is to connect its digital output to a digital input and so on in order to keep the signal in the digital domain as close to the speakers as you can. This bypasses the D/A converters in the optical disc player, where is most if not all of its alleged audible advantages are.
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post #375 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 05:52 PM
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I have been told that CD player is just that - a CD player. No matter how much you pay for a player (well let say starting at $100 and up) the sound will remain the same. The manufacturers will claim redefining laws of physics and all that nonsense. But still, there will be no AUDIBLE difference between a garden variety $100 Sony CD player and the likes of these $12,000 beauties below.





Is this true? Provided we are sampling the same CD/SACD and audio system is of an elite level to pickup the difference, if there is any.
I would say a definitive maybe. And even then it would be subtle. Much of any difference if perceived will be the result of the analog circuitry following the DACs in the cd players.

For the most part unless you've got money to burn I'd recommend the players from companies like Sony, HK, NAD that are reputable and easily affordable. If you wanna impress, go for the Accuphase.
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post #376 of 450 Old 01-06-2015, 06:01 PM
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... Has your work ever been published in a major referred journal? Mine has, in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America.

db
What does this mean, really? How is it relevant here? Are you trying to invoke a logical fallacy, argument from authority?
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post #377 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 06:04 AM
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What does this mean, really? How is it relevant here? Are you trying to invoke a logical fallacy, argument from authority?

I think he is saying that, because he has a paper published in a journal and I don't, that his credibility outpaces mine. It may do so. I don't know and I don't care. I know I've done the bias controlled tests and I suspect he hasn't. I'm very confident about my statements, published or not. I know I'm talking about test results and he is probably talking about his opinion.


It is fine for him not to believe me. It is fine for him to disagree. What is not fine is trying to shut me up because he doesn't like what I say.
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post #378 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 07:30 AM
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FMW, what are these test results you keep referring to?
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post #379 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 08:38 AM
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FMW, what are these test results you keep referring to?

Results of bias controlled listening tests.
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post #380 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 09:44 AM
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Hi FMW, I don't know how casual your tests were but it'd be of interest to see something documented if you have it.
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post #381 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 09:59 AM
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They weren't casual, but they weren't documented either. We did them for ourselves, not to prove anything to anybody.
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post #382 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 01:28 PM
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They weren't casual, but they weren't documented either. We did them for ourselves, not to prove anything to anybody.
That was my point. You haven't documented your claims yet you castigate anyone who is skeptical of them. Of course reference my decades old articles in JASA is irrelevant to the current topic, except to point out that those who claim to have science on their side are expected to publish their results, preferably in peer reviewed journals. Handwaving is insufficient, especially when making such broad generalizations. There must be some perverse pleasure some of you get in these attacks, because you do persevere.

db
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post #383 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 01:39 PM
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That was my point. You haven't documented your claims yet you castigate anyone who is skeptical of them. Of course reference my decades old articles in JASA is irrelevant to the current topic, except to point out that those who claim to have science on their side are expected to publish their results, preferably in peer reviewed journals. Handwaving is insufficient, especially when making such broad generalizations. There must be some perverse pleasure some of you get in these attacks, because you do persevere.

db

Our bias controlled listening tests are a part of my life experience just as the things you post are. I'll continue to post them, handwaving and all. When you have done some bias controlled tests, come back and we can share notes. In the meantime your comments have no more credibility with me than mine do with you.


It is not a pleasure to constantly fight an audio industry that spreads misinformation for a living and to try to explain to those who accept the misinformation why they are misinformed by what they read and what they hear. I do it because I think it is the right thing to do. I recommend you put me on your ignore list. Then you won't have to deal with it.
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post #384 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 04:21 PM
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Our bias controlled listening tests are a part of my life experience just as the things you post are. I'll continue to post them, handwaving and all.
And where have you posted your tests? They are posted up in your brain, we do know that.

It's great you’ve done your own experiments and learned some things. I’m happy for you.

But let's not sugar coat it, your tests are amateur.

I've looked at some of the actual published tests and most of them are just hobbyists fiddling about with #2 pencils. Fun but not robust.

There is little peer-reviewed papers on this subject. There’s not really interested parties that have the necessary financial resources. Perhaps a company like Yamaha is sitting on mountains of research and they hold it close. There’s much about sensory perception and brain activity that we don’t understand, any scientist will agree.

I suspect we will see some new research that will clear a lot of this debate. You might be surprised. I would keep an open mind if I were you!
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post #385 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 04:34 PM
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...
But let's not sugar coat it, your tests are amateur.

I've looked at some of the actual published tests and most of them are just hobbyists fiddling about with #2 pencils. Fun but not robust.

There is little peer-reviewed papers on this subject. There’s not really interested parties that have the necessary financial resources. Perhaps a company like Yamaha is sitting on mountains of research and they hold it close. There’s much about sensory perception and brain activity that we don’t understand, any scientist will agree.

I suspect we will see some new research that will clear a lot of this debate. You might be surprised. I would keep an open mind if I were you!
I doubt brain activity will tell us much about what we really perceive to be true in audio otherwise even the amature test would have much more positive outcomes. What would Yamaha gain from publishing null results? Or, any audio company, for that matter? Nulls sell nothing but in fact would hinder sales.
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post #386 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 04:42 PM
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That was my point. You haven't documented your claims yet you castigate anyone who is skeptical of them. Of course reference my decades old articles in JASA is irrelevant to the current topic, except to point out that those who claim to have science on their side are expected to publish their results, preferably in peer reviewed journals. Handwaving is insufficient, especially when making such broad generalizations. There must be some perverse pleasure some of you get in these attacks, because you do persevere.

db
You complaining again? Believe me, there are other forums which you will be happy with because they post things the way you want to see. Happiness is a terrible thing to waste.
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post #387 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 06:26 PM
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But let's not sugar coat it, your tests are amateur.

I'm happy to know you are an expert at the tests we did. I wonder how you learned so much about them.
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I thought I had deleted this thread. I have read posts by FMW that present interesting points, so I wouldn't wan't to ignore him, just his posts at this thread. I'm less sure about your posts, spkr, but I find your snarky remarks ill informed. Why can't you guys disagree with a point of view without attacking the person holding that point of view? And posing as the purveyors of science doesn't help. Psychoacoustics is tricky, and in my experience, variability among listeners is almost always the predominant factor if you do an analysis of variance or factor analytic study. We know a lot about the minutia of hearing, much less about the perception of sound.

db
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post #389 of 450 Old 01-07-2015, 07:26 PM
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I thought I had deleted this thread. I have read posts by FMW that present interesting points, so I wouldn't wan't to ignore him, just his posts at this thread. I'm less sure about your posts, spkr, but I find your snarky remarks ill informed. Why can't you guys disagree with a point of view without attacking the person holding that point of view? And posing as the purveyors of science doesn't help. Psychoacoustics is tricky, and in my experience, variability among listeners is almost always the predominant factor if you do an analysis of variance or factor analytic study. We know a lot about the minutia of hearing, much less about the perception of sound.

db
More complaints. I guess you believe that complaining about this forum helps the debate subject. You want to contribute to the thread? Well, there are some questions asked to you since yesterday. How about answering those.
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post #390 of 450 Old 01-08-2015, 05:28 AM
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I thought I had deleted this thread. I have read posts by FMW that present interesting points, so I wouldn't wan't to ignore him, just his posts at this thread. I'm less sure about your posts, spkr, but I find your snarky remarks ill informed. Why can't you guys disagree with a point of view without attacking the person holding that point of view? And posing as the purveyors of science doesn't help. Psychoacoustics is tricky, and in my experience, variability among listeners is almost always the predominant factor if you do an analysis of variance or factor analytic study. We know a lot about the minutia of hearing, much less about the perception of sound.

db

If it helps you to understand, our DAC tests involved 10 audiophiles - members of our audio club. We tested DACs ranging from a Radio Shack portable CD player to a $3500 Audio Research CD player. If I remember correctly there were 8 different DACs in the test. No one was ever able to tell one DAC from another.


I've done a few random tests after that. In short, I have never encountered anyone who could ID one DAC against another in a level matched bias controlled test.


What I'm saying is that when you control psychoacoustics, there is no audible difference between DACs. If such an audible difference exists then I've never encountered it or even heard of anyone encountering it. Hence the "generalization."


I realize psychoacoustics is a complex subject and tricky. That's why we didn't allow any in our tests. The industry, on the other hand, tends to test psychoacoustics rather than audibility. It improves sales.
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