Is There an Audible Difference Between High End CD Transports and Modest/Cheap CD Players? - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 434 Old 01-15-2015, 01:05 PM
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And I still believe what I perceive. So what?

db

So nothing. Everybody on the planet can believe what they like. We are trying to protect beginners from misinformation and that is why we challenge inaccurate comments made from sighted evaluations. Changing your mind about anything isn't the issue at all. Happy listening.
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post #422 of 434 Old 01-15-2015, 03:57 PM
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And I still believe what I perceive. So what?

db
Good thing I was able to change my mind on better evidence when I looked at a 5 gal bucket of water with a copper pipe place into it. Or the supernatural. Perceptions can be fooled rather easily.
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post #423 of 434 Old 01-15-2015, 07:45 PM
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Believe what you want. You want to post what you believe? Just be ready that you will be challenged on this forum. You don't prefer to be challenged? There are others forums that will suit your preference better.
spkr, I don't feel challenged, just annoyed by the ad hominem attacks on anyone who does not profess the faith. BTW, if all the units are the same, why is there any need for level adjusting? Could the circuitry after the DAC chip contribute to that?

db
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post #424 of 434 Old 01-15-2015, 11:42 PM
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spkr, I don't feel challenged, just annoyed by the ad hominem attacks on anyone who does not profess the faith.
Feel whatever you want or call it whatever you want. The challenge still comes through on this forum.
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BTW, if all the units are the same, why is there any need for level adjusting? Could the circuitry after the DAC chip contribute to that?
Study up on audio electronics circuit design. Materials are out there.
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post #425 of 434 Old 01-16-2015, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
spkr, I don't feel challenged, just annoyed by the ad hominem attacks on anyone who does not profess the faith. BTW, if all the units are the same, why is there any need for level adjusting? Could the circuitry after the DAC chip contribute to that?

db
What ad hominem attacks? Can't remember any.

You instead prefer we simply share your faith in your opinion? What do we get out of it? What makes your opinion of sound qualities or gear performance or testing methodology to be worthy of serious consideration?

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #426 of 434 Old 01-16-2015, 02:38 AM
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Study up on audio electronics circuit design. Materials are out there.
spkr, can you really be so dogmatic you missed the logical implication?

db

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post #427 of 434 Old 01-16-2015, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
spkr, I don't feel challenged, just annoyed by the ad hominem attacks on anyone who does not profess the faith. BTW, if all the units are the same, why is there any need for level adjusting? Could the circuitry after the DAC chip contribute to that?

db

No. The circuitry after the DAC chip is quite linear - even in a cell phone. It is just an op amp basically.


Level matching is critical because it makes it easy to distinguish one unit from the other whether there is an audible difference or not between the two. There is no point in making a bias controlled experiment without level matching because you will get 100% result every time. The difference in level creates an audible difference all by itself.


I understand what you believe and why. I was there myself for many years until I actually did the tests myself. The problem on this forum is simply that you are debating with only part of the experience. We all have hearing bias. Very few of us understand that, however, because very few of us have done the comparisons without it.


There are plenty of audible differences in audio but modern DACs aren't one of them.
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post #428 of 434 Old 01-16-2015, 09:52 AM
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spkr, can you really be so dogmatic you missed the logical implication?

db
You missed the point. Your question on post number 423 has been discussed and explained more than once on this very forum since Dec. 2006 (when you joined). For you to bring that up as if you just joined this forum yesterday, is ignorant to say the least. But then again, so what, right?
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post #429 of 434 Old 01-16-2015, 12:40 PM
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No. The circuitry after the DAC chip is quite linear - even in a cell phone. It is just an op amp basically.


Level matching is critical because it makes it easy to distinguish one unit from the other whether there is an audible difference or not between the two. There is no point in making a bias controlled experiment without level matching because you will get 100% result every time. The difference in level creates an audible difference all by itself.


I understand what you believe and why. I was there myself for many years until I actually did the tests myself. The problem on this forum is simply that you are debating with only part of the experience. We all have hearing bias. Very few of us understand that, however, because very few of us have done the comparisons without it.


There are plenty of audible differences in audio but modern DACs aren't one of them.
Thanks you FMW, yours are the only replies that have content, and i appreciate them.

(1) Why should there be level differences if the DACs are all the same and the analog circuitry is so linear?

(2) I went back and reread the OP and early posts. The title of this thread is a question, but the intent from the start was a statement: There is no audible difference. That is a given.

(3) I used to be an advocate of that position, and I still believe the transduction processes (microphone, speakers) are where the big action occurs. My listening preference tends to small classical and jazz groups, but I do occasionally listen to large orchestrations. I like a sense of openness or air that reminds me of the many jazz groups I've heard in soCal and recitals I've enjoyed at Stanford. But then I replaced my Proceed PAV and Amp 2 with a Sony receiver to simplify my setup. It was as though a soufflé went flat. All the notes were there but the sense of openness had gone. I had/have a Marantz Model 18 receiver that sounded superb driving the old AR3a speakers, so i was surprised. The KEF Reference 102s should have been easier. The PAV and Amp 2 went back into the setup and I gave away the Sony receiver. What I listen for is difficult to describe, but I know it when I hear it. The Hamonia Mundi recording of Corelli Opus 6 No. 1 with McGegan and the PBO is a litmus test I use when evaluating a system. Is the sense of spaciousness present or absent.

(4) As one who used to do psychoacoustic research, I'm aware of hearing bias, but I'm also aware how difficult teasing out psychophysical correlates can be. I used balanced experimental design with many trials and many listeners so I could evaluate the all important interactions, not just main effects. The physical correlates for something like i listen for is difficult to pin down, but I can do the present/absent dichotomy.

(5) Do I think you need to spend big bucks for fine sound? No. I often advise my friends to get an Oppo BDP 105 as disc player and processor, a decent amp, and a pair of something like the KEF LS50 speakers. All my equipment except for the Oppo was purchased used, often at 10 cents on the dollar and never more than 50 cents.

I enjoy intellectual discussion; I just don't enjoy the mud slinging so common in this thread but not elsewhere at AVS, the Asylum, or Audiogon.

db
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post #430 of 434 Old 01-16-2015, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
Thanks you FMW, yours are the only replies that have content, and i appreciate them.

(1) Why should there be level differences if the DACs are all the same and the analog circuitry is so linear?

Because the output voltage of the analog stage can differ from one unit to another.

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(3) I used to be an advocate of that position, and I still believe the transduction processes (microphone, speakers) are where the big action occurs. My listening preference tends to small classical and jazz groups, but I do occasionally listen to large orchestrations. I like a sense of openness or air that reminds me of the many jazz groups I've heard in soCal and recitals I've enjoyed at Stanford. But then I replaced my Proceed PAV and Amp 2 with a Sony receiver to simplify my setup. It was as though a soufflé went flat. All the notes were there but the sense of openness had gone. I had/have a Marantz Model 18 receiver that sounded superb driving the old AR3a speakers, so i was surprised. The KEF Reference 102s should have been easier. The PAV and Amp 2 went back into the setup and I gave away the Sony receiver. What I listen for is difficult to describe, but I know it when I hear it. The Hamonia Mundi recording of Corelli Opus 6 No. 1 with McGegan and the PBO is a litmus test I use when evaluating a system. Is the sense of spaciousness present or absent.

The debate is whether what you experience is generated by the equipment or the hearing bias. The reason I suggest hearing bias is that I have yet to encounter an audible difference between two DACs. There may be one somewhere but saying that you are experiencing hearing bias is a pretty safe bet.

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(4) As one who used to do psychoacoustic research, I'm aware of hearing bias, but I'm also aware how difficult teasing out psychophysical correlates can be. I used balanced experimental design with many trials and many listeners so I could evaluate the all important interactions, not just main effects. The physical correlates for something like i listen for is difficult to pin down, but I can do the present/absent dichotomy.

So did we. We used a group of 10 audiophiles and did 100 iterations of the test - 10 for each subject. I don't argue that our tests are flawless. All I say is that, if audible differences disappear when bias is controlled, then it isn't a stretch to assign the audible differences to bias. There is no other logical conclusion.

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(5) Do I think you need to spend big bucks for fine sound? No. I often advise my friends to get an Oppo BDP 105 as disc player and processor, a decent amp, and a pair of something like the KEF LS50 speakers. All my equipment except for the Oppo was purchased used, often at 10 cents on the dollar and never more than 50 cents.

I learned long ago that there is little correlation between price and sound quality in the home audio business. I have no problem at all with the existence of audio jewelry. I care not what people spend on their equipment. I'm comfortable with a wide range of motivations for a purchase. I just try to keep raising my hand to debate science against what I view as belief. It isn't personal at all

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I enjoy intellectual discussion; I just don't enjoy the mud slinging so common in this thread but not elsewhere at AVS, the Asylum, or Audiogon.

db

People tend to behave differently behind the shield of the internet than they do face to face. It is one of the characteristics of the net, I'm afraid.
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post #431 of 434 Old 01-16-2015, 01:59 PM
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I enjoy intellectual discussion; I just don't enjoy the mud slinging so common in this thread
That's odd, especially after seeing these come from you...
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That was my point. You haven't documented your claims yet you castigate anyone who is skeptical of them. Of course reference my decades old articles in JASA is irrelevant to the current topic, except to point out that those who claim to have science on their side are expected to publish their results, preferably in peer reviewed journals. Handwaving is insufficient, especially when making such broad generalizations. There must be some perverse pleasure some of you get in these attacks, because you do persevere.
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Now that is a claim clearly beyond your knowledge or expertise. I am even more skeptical of those who purport to know the motivations of the behavior of others.
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Let's just leave it at I'm a skeptic, and let's have no more psychobabble from Arnyk about repressed fears and discomfort.

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but not elsewhere at AVS, the Asylum, or Audiogon.
So you know where you'll be happier. That's good to know.
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post #432 of 434 Old 01-17-2015, 11:36 AM
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Thanks you FMW, yours are the only replies that have content, and i appreciate them.

...
I enjoy intellectual discussion; I just don't enjoy the mud slinging so common in this thread but not elsewhere at AVS, the Asylum, or Audiogon.

db
What I don't understand is why the mud slinging is allowed by the mods, it certainly does not add anything to the forum.
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post #433 of 434 Old 01-17-2015, 05:54 PM
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What I don't understand is why the mud slinging is allowed by the mods, it certainly does not add anything to the forum.
Just because you and dbphd see challenging audio claims as mud slinging, doesn't mean everyone sees it the same way.
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post #434 of 434 Old 01-17-2015, 06:33 PM
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I'd like to know some further input from Arny and Amir on this thread's subject. ...And also from owners of ultra high-end CD transports. /// And separate DACs of course.
/// dCS, Trinity, Meridian Reference, Krell, Esoteric, 47 Laboratory, Cary Audio Design Professional Versions, Classe, Linn, Playback Designs, Burmester, Nagra, Ayre Acoustics, Mark Levinson, Naim, Musical Fidelity, Muse, Accuphase, Boulder, Bel Canto, Audio Note, Simaudio, Bricasti Design, Chord, MSB, Theta Digital, Weiss, Wadia, Wavelength, ...
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