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Differences in SQ of Ethernet Cable Challenge

9K views 125 replies 23 participants last post by  A9X-308 
#1 ·
I'm involved in a thread at PF about certain members there not understanding the mechanics behind computer based audio as it pertains from getting material over Ethernet.


Some are adamant that they can tell a difference in Ethernet that passes spec. So I offered up the following and want to see if their are any potential holes in the method for testing an individuals ability to simply discern a difference reliably:


My offer to the person(s):


A computer with two identical network cards. One card has what ever passes spec CAT5/6/7 you want (I would assume AQ would pass testing or we could take Kurt at BJC up on his offer to send one of your choice for validation) and one of his cables or other certified CAT6. You bring your cable and I'll bring mine.


Set card A up with static ip, as example, 192.168.10.20/24, card B s 192.168.10.21/24, NAS as 192.168.10.22/24.


Setup as a typical network: NAS> GB Switch> Card A / Card B (identical cards)>USB to DAC.


I would bring a Windows PC with fresh install of Win 7 X64.


Media Monkey / Foobar / JRiver with WASAPI or ASIO. Your choice. We can discuss play list and how you want them setup.


Use a Wyred DAC ~$1600 ( let me know if Wyred is unacceptable ). Connected via your choice of USB cable.


You indicate to me when to roll the dice. I would simply enable or disable a network interface in Windows(or not). I wouldn't be in the room to do this. Just setup RDP and I would control from a 3rd network controller on a separate physical network (directly cabled most likely for efficiency of setup) so no network bandwidth taken up on the Card A / Card B / NAS segment.


1 day


RDP only requires 5.6Kpbs (same as old 56k dial up modem speeds) for trivial screen sharing tasks.


Loser purchases the DAC for the winning party. I could be in Chicago in ~ 4 hours. Your system. 15 rolls of the dice. Even # Card A odd # card B. Hit 13 out of 15 (86%). I'm not even asking you hit an A letter grade. Initial roll will determine if Card A or B starts the evaluation session.
 
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#4 ·
Some people believe their power plug makes a difference. It comes down to a very simple fact: A little knowledge is dangerous. Very little knowledge is very dangerous.


You will never win these discussions. Physics, or even fair objective testing, will never allow reason and reality to overcome religion. "What ever makes you happy" is the only suitable answer. I hate to see people waste money on snake oil, but this is not life threatening, so let it be.


I will challenge " meets spec" little. Unless you are using Belden, most cable above Cat 3 does not meet spec if you were to test it. Unless your BER is too high, it still is not an issue, just realize the absolute garbage being sold out there. I bought a premade "cat 6e" cable in the big box store. When I shortened it, I found the pairs were not bonded and the twists per foot were all the same between pairs. Probably no better than cat 5. Made in China. Need I say more, For audio, no problem. If you were going to use this for HDBaseT, you may have difficulty.


If I were to ***** abut something it is using packet based transports for streaming data. Maybe the QOS features of IP V6 will allow some help in this if they are ever used. Same as USB3 is no substitute for Firewire.
 
#5 ·
Not sure why packet switched networks are fine for broadcast video but not audio?


I can transfer an entire CD on GB networking in 6-7 seconds. I'm also talking about certified cable BTW (I thought it was mentioned in my offer).


I'm trying to give $1600 away and willing to drive 4 hours to Chicago and plop the test rig in some ones own listening room and they STILL won't take up the offer.


In the end that really makes my point for me so all is well. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them think. Focusrite has a line up of ethernet connected Mastering solutions now.
 
#7 ·
I believe that a couple things are possible


1. The power of the placebo effect is not to be underestimated.

Study after study have shown astonishing results. Subjects given the placebo responded as well or in some cases better than subjects given the real treatment.

Were just starting to scratch the surface of the mystery and power of what the mind in truly capable of.

2. We have perception that greatly exceeds any test equipment.

3.The cumulative effect of small differences can add up to perceptible difference.


In the end your right-do what ever makes you happy.

After all it their money.
 
#8 ·
All your points are easily validated on a person by person basis.


When people are told there are sq differences in quality (there is a ton of crap out there) Ethernet cables it is a lie plain and simple.


The other thing to keep in mind is wireless have zero of the L, c, r properties of copper or silver extruded cables
 
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#14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk  /t/1531056/differences-in-sq-of-ethernet-cable-challenge#post_24707987


Is Darque Knight even remotely correct here :

Floyd Toole and Sean Olive have no real interest in stereophonic reproduction systems. They consider them fundamentally flawed and inferior to monophonic systems. That is why the vast majority of their audio tests were/are done in mono.

Is Darque Knight ever right about anything?


And why do people even bother going to the Polk Forums? It's like going to the zoo and trying to have a conversation with the chimps.
 
#16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav  /t/1531056/differences-in-sq-of-ethernet-cable-challenge/0_100#post_24708102


Is Darque Knight ever right about anything?


And why do people even bother going to the Polk Forums? It's like going to the zoo and trying to have a conversation with the chimps.

I go just to see what mind blowing "tweaks" they will find next. Cheap entertainment.
 
#18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav  /t/1531056/differences-in-sq-of-ethernet-cable-challenge#post_24708102


Is Darque Knight ever right about anything?


And why do people even bother going to the Polk Forums? It's like going to the zoo and trying to have a conversation with the chimps.

Be careful there.
Some chimps may be able to sign and communicate.
 
#20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk  /t/1531056/differences-in-sq-of-ethernet-cable-challenge#post_24708425


I found his post odd since they are in part responsible for Harmans listening room. Which is in stereo.


It takes a lot of chutzpah to call out those two icons.

Toole and Oliver have said that when comparing two different speakers, it's better to compare a single speaker vs a single speaker (which of course means mono), instead of comparing stereo setups with the speakers in pairs. The chimps on the Polk Forums probably misunderstood that and ran with it.


Sorry, I just offended chimps!
 
#21 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk  /t/1531056/differences-in-sq-of-ethernet-cable-challenge/0_100#post_24711160


Looks like it is still a go. The only wrinkle is ZLTFUL wants to introduce a CAT5e cable. I just want it certified that it passes CAT5e spec and is capable of GB speed.

You need to let him use his own Peachtree DAC like he wants to. Or that will be the next excuse. Not like it will make any difference anyways.


I notice the other members are starting to get upset that he is going to do this. Wonder why? Also found it hilarious that now thay want him to do it at Polkfest, on an unfamiliar syatem.


It would be great if you could get others to try it as well, but I'm still pretty sure this test is not going to happen at all.
 
#22 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerim  /t/1531056/differences-in-sq-of-ethernet-cable-challenge#post_24713727


You need to let him use his own Peachtree DAC like he wants to. Or that will be the next excuse. Not like it will make any difference anyways.


I notice the other members are starting to get upset that he is going to do this. Wonder why? Also found it hilarious that now thay want him to do it at Polkfest, on an unfamiliar syatem.


It would be great if you could get others to try it as well, but I'm still pretty sure this test is not going to happen at all.

My reasoning for the Wyred Audio DAC is that they couldn't say the DAC they were using was somehow compromised. I'm still thinking about it. Part of the issue is the more you let someone make changes, the more changes I believe they are going to try and make.
 
#23 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk  /t/1531056/differences-in-sq-of-ethernet-cable-challenge/0_100#post_24714122


My reasoning for the Wyred Audio DAC is that they couldn't say the DAC they were using was somehow compromised. I'm still thinking about it. Part of the issue is the more you let someone make changes, the more changes I believe they are going to try and make.

I don't really think that is a change. He said he could do it on his system, so make sure it is his system.


If it were me, I'd add some analog/speaker cable tests in there too. They will still claim those have a night and day difference after he fails the digital test...if it really takes place.
 
#24 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerim  /t/1531056/differences-in-sq-of-ethernet-cable-challenge#post_24714193


I don't really think that is a change. He said he could do it on his system, so make sure it is his system.


If it were me, I'd add some analog/speaker cable tests in there too. They will still claim those have a night and day difference after he fails the digital test...if it really takes place.

Exactly. I would use exactly his system in his home at his leisure, but level matched and blinded. Minimize the excuses why he failed. Also needs to have enough trials to be statistically meaningful, say 15 or 20 trials at least if the person can even get there since one famous cable test

here ended up not completing as the subject gave up. That system was into 7 figures.
 
#25 ·
I'm ok with him using his Peachtree DAC-IT.


There is no need for level matching since we aren't comparing DAC's etc... Just ability to discern data cables.


The challenge has changed a bit:


A/B/C cable. 30 roll of the die. 1-2=A, 3-4=B, 5-6=C and he has to say which cable is plugged in.
 
#26 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk  /t/1531056/differences-in-sq-of-ethernet-cable-challenge#post_24714979


I'm ok with him using his Peachtree DAC-IT.


There is no need for level matching since we aren't comparing DAC's etc... Just ability to discern data cables.


The challenge has changed a bit:


A/B/C cable. 30 roll of the die. 1-2=A, 3-4=B, 5-6=C and he has to say which cable is plugged in.
OK. I would think you may want to do 2 cables first, then the 3rd with one of the first two so the statistics is easier. And, 20 trials is just fine(16 of 20 correct), if he can last that long


Oh, also, it is fair not to change anything as long as he thinks there is a change and see how well he guesses.
 
#27 ·

Quote:
The challenge has changed a bit:


A/B/C cable. 30 roll of the die. 1-2=A, 3-4=B, 5-6=C and he has to say which cable is plugged in.
Very bad idea. The statistics are way too complex, unless you have a real background in the field. What's your threshold going to be?


Just do two at a time, 20 trials, as CJ suggests.
 
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