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post #91 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Of course not. I am sane, and spending that kind of money (or even $1000) on a CDP would be stark, raving nuts.

I am very happy to admit then..........I'm completely insane!
Lucky they haven't put me in a straight jacket yet or i wouldn't be able to press play on my $4000 (Australian) CD player
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post #92 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by classic77 View Post

I am very happy to admit then..........I'm completely insane!
Lucky they haven't put me in a straight jacket yet or i wouldn't be able to press play on my $4000 (Australian) CD player


I bet it sounds great. It's not an Onkyo CD changer but I am sure that was in the back of your mind when making your decision.
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post #93 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by diamonds View Post

It seems to me that you and Pulliamm are the same person. Charles J you are the only person to come out of the no where and defend him every time, that he is under attack. Who knows.

Yep, who knows.


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Originally Posted by diamonds View Post

I don't think Math determines sound quailty.

Are you sure about that? Of course not. Maybe you should research the work conducted at the NRC in Canada. Kind of enlightening, for some, voodoo to others.


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Originally Posted by diamonds View Post

If I have convinced myself that one CDP sounds better than the other based on price then does one still sound better to my ears? I know in my mind and my friends minds that my latest CDP sounds better in my system than any other before it. Good enough for me.

Of course it will sound better in your brain, you convinced yourself, and your friend did the same.

If that reality is enough, be happy.
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post #94 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by diamonds View Post

I've never driven a Ferrari but my experience tells me it handles the same as my Escort. It also about as fast in the quarter mile.


Now why am I not surprised yet another car analogy popped up in audio? Of course it must be parallel to cars. Why didn't I think of this before now?

You see, your sour comparison is also testable. And, I bet, one will be out front of the other, not at all the same.

So, does that mean that CD players must be different? If you think this, you must or you would not have used the silly car analogy, then better just not discuss audio further.
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post #95 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by classic77 View Post

When has cost determined the quality of anything?

BUT would you turn down a 100000, 50000 or 20000 dollar system for a pair of, wait for it.......B&W 705s


All depends, and yes I could. Firstly, its measured performance has to be supported by that price, even if it was given free, as a first indicator of its capability to reproduce audio signals. And, yes, they do correlate to research findings, in case you are going to poo poo this idea. The, I would try a blind listen, so its visual design and name would not bias me either way.
But, I would not take it just because of its price; wrong approach for me. Tells me nothing except its price.
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post #96 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by classic77 View Post

Judging equipment based on measurements usually results in failure.
.


Maybe for you it does. Unfortunate.
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post #97 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mark russ View Post

If he only had better speakers, then perhaps he would finally be able to hear the differences in CD players.


Is that what it takes? All this time I thought it was an ability to hear small differences while personal bias it controlled for. My oh my.
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post #98 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 10:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Is that what it takes? All this time I thought it was an ability to hear small differences while personal bias it controlled for. My oh my.

It doesn't matter how good or bad your hearing is if you have crappy speakers like Pulliam does.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you can't hear a difference in CD players on your system, then you should buy the absolute cheapest one possible and then sleep soundly.
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post #99 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 10:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

The only better speakers that exist are the B&Ws one level up from mine, and the amount of difference between them and mine is extremely small.

This comment right here speaks for itself so much as to pulliam's credibility (or lack thereof I should say) that no further comment is even required.
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post #100 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

You still don't get it. CD players aren't "computers". Different manufacturers filter and upsample the digital info differently which results in a different sound. This is done to create a playback they think "sounds" best. This is completely ignoring other aspects like jitter and stable analog section.

larry

I believe the following would apply pulliam - "Those that don't know, don't even know that they don't know"!
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post #101 of 366 Old 03-29-2007, 10:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by diamonds View Post

... it's not in the same ballpark, it's not the same league, not the same anything. Hell it's not even the same hobby.

or sport.
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post #102 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 05:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonds View Post

I don't think Math determines sound quailty.

The details of the math are hard to explain in layman's terms, but the gist of it is this: The data on a CD is sufficient to allow 100% perfect duplication of the original signal at all frequencies up to 1/2 the sampling frequency (in this case 22kHz.) Any reasonably well designed DAC (which today they all are) accomplishes this perfect duplication, and hence cannot be improved further. Since the analog section contains no tone controls or even a volume control, it is a much simpler circuit than any preamp, and is highly unlikely to have any real impact on the sound.
The one thing that some CDPs can do better is handle flawed discs (manufacturing defects, dirt, scratches, etc.), but today this is only an issue with portables.
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post #103 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 05:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark russ View Post

I believe the following would apply pulliam - "Those that don't know, don't even know that they don't know"!

What actually applies to me is the opposite-"Those of us who know know that we know and that others (eg mark russ) do not know."
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post #104 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 06:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

All depends, and yes I could. Firstly, its measured performance has to be supported by that price, even if it was given free, as a first indicator of its capability to reproduce audio signals. And, yes, they do correlate to research findings, in case you are going to poo poo this idea. The, I would try a blind listen, so its visual design and name would not bias me either way.
But, I would not take it just because of its price; wrong approach for me. Tells me nothing except its price.

Excellent points. Since the 705s give me everything I could concievably want from speakers, I would gain nothing by spending more.
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post #105 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

The details of the math are hard to explain in layman's terms, but the gist of it is this: The data on a CD is sufficient to allow 100% perfect duplication of the original signal at all frequencies up to 1/2 the sampling frequency (in this case 22kHz.) Any reasonably well designed DAC (which today they all are) accomplishes this perfect duplication, and hence cannot be improved further. Since the analog section contains no tone controls or even a volume control, it is a much simpler circuit than any preamp, and is highly unlikely to have any real impact on the sound.
The one thing that some CDPs can do better is handle flawed discs (manufacturing defects, dirt, scratches, etc.), but today this is only an issue with portables.


I am just a dumb construction worker, so math is way above my head. How did I ever run a successful business for 20 years without a degree in math? Miracles never cease.

Not only do you have little or no experience with the equipment you speak about...but your also extremely condescending...which is a nice bonus.

What about the different output stages in CDPs?
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post #106 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Excellent points. Since the 705s give me everything I could concievably want from speakers, I would gain nothing by spending more.

You again choose not to try anything new so you have no idea what could be better.
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post #107 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

The details of the math are hard to explain in layman's terms, but the gist of it is this: The data on a CD is sufficient to allow 100% perfect duplication of the original signal at all frequencies up to 1/2 the sampling frequency (in this case 22kHz.) Any reasonably well designed DAC (which today they all are) accomplishes this perfect duplication, and hence cannot be improved further. Since the analog section contains no tone controls or even a volume control, it is a much simpler circuit than any preamp, and is highly unlikely to have any real impact on the sound.
The one thing that some CDPs can do better is handle flawed discs (manufacturing defects, dirt, scratches, etc.), but today this is only an issue with portables.

I find it ironic that someone who has proudly professed the improvement in SQ due to using certain analog interconnects...that cost twice as much as his CDP and pre/amp combined, mind you...continuously lectures people about math, engineering and the way the audio elites waste their money on things that can't possibly matter.

Or were you just being silly again?

Scott
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post #108 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 08:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ssteel01 View Post

I find it ironic that someone who has proudly professed the improvement in SQ due to using certain analog interconnects...that cost twice as much as his CDP and pre/amp combined, mind you...

They cost significantly less than the CDP alone. Where do you get your figures?
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post #109 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

The details of the math are hard to explain in layman's terms, but the gist of it is this: The data on a CD is sufficient to allow 100% perfect duplication of the original signal at all frequencies up to 1/2 the sampling frequency (in this case 22kHz.) Any reasonably well designed DAC (which today they all are) accomplishes this perfect duplication, and hence cannot be improved further. Since the analog section contains no tone controls or even a volume control, it is a much simpler circuit than any preamp, and is highly unlikely to have any real impact on the sound.
The one thing that some CDPs can do better is handle flawed discs (manufacturing defects, dirt, scratches, etc.), but today this is only an issue with portables.

PULLIAMM,

I'm curious now - please re-iterate your explanation in non-layman's terms.

I think the sampling frequency theorem is the Shannon-Nyquist sampling theorem. Do you agree that there can deviations between audio theorem and real-world implementation into consumer electronics products?

I wonder why then, there are so many different implementations of redbook decoding DACs?

What circuit topologies are you considering when comparing between post filter and/or buffer output stage <-> analog output interface, and a two-channel preamp?

Finally, scratched/dirty media can definitely still impact a CD player, transport, or even PC CD/DVD drive. How do you deal with scratched or dirty discs?

Thanks,

- Steve O.
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post #110 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 10:49 AM
 
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The best concise, nontechnical exposition is provided by Wolfram Math World. Frequencies up to 22kHz can be reconstructed with zero loss, and no additional information can be gained by oversampling or similar tricks. In other words, as I have always said, cheap CDPs can extract the maximum signal quality achievable by the CD itself, and "better" ones do not give you anything extra.
Portable CDPs do sometimes have issues with skipping or stalling from flawed discs. I have not encountered any home player with these problems in the last 5 years or so.
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post #111 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

The best concise, nontechnical exposition is provided by Wolfram Math World. Frequencies up to 22kHz can be reconstructed with zero loss, and no additional information can be gained by oversampling or similar tricks. In other words, as I have always said, cheap CDPs can extract the maximum signal quality achievable by the CD itself, and "better" ones do not give you anything extra.
Portable CDPs do sometimes have issues with skipping or stalling from flawed discs. I have not encountered any home player with these problems in the last 5 years or so.


But you have never heard a reference cdp so you don't know.
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post #112 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 02:30 PM
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Which means what? Is there one out there that's a reference or were you talking about something else?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #113 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 02:33 PM
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Pulliamm,

Just curious if all CD player sound the same regardless of price? Why does Wolfson for example make many types of DAC with different specifications and price ranges? Clearly they have reserched the manufacturing and design of them throughly to market them. I also dont doubt marketing does play some role. They all provide some kind of differences in ouput and SNR / THD as well has quality of build. So I believe they do provide a some kind different sound, if installed in a CD player. I also know there is many other internals such as wiring and curcuitry that come into play with each brand of player. All cd player do not use the same stuff build wise, so many of us hear a difference in sound. i looked at the Rega Saturn and the MarantzD there both CD player that provide good sound quality. If you look at the spec's they use different DAC, power supply, internals and features. I think These factors do provide a different sound in my book.. 8) You are entitled to your opinion and we understand it VERY WELL. I am glad that AV manufacturers dont agree to yours or we would have only one product on the market a standard Onkyo clone and no other choices...

http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/productListings/dacs/
http://www.rega.co.uk/html/Saturn.htm
http://us.marantz.com/Products/1154.asp
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post #114 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 02:39 PM
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Maybe there are different DACs because not all do the same thing nor are they intended to be used in the same type of device. See if they've got datasheets and download some of them.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #115 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Maybe there are different DACs because not all do the same thing nor are they intended to be used in the same type of device. See if they've got datasheets and download some of them.

I just compared 2 channel stereo DAC's at the Wolfson site. They list over 14 models. Both of these models are used in CD player. 8740 Very High End and 8725 low cost

http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/WM8740/
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/WM8725/

I am not a expert at all, just posting what I read
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post #116 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 03:31 PM
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I'm not an expert either, but reading those two data sheets there are differences in...

the package (28 pin vs 14 pin)

different sampling rates

capabilities (serial port, digitally controllable muting, etc.)

Wolfram states the less expensive one is for use in portable devices so I'd expect it to be less full featured. Again, just because there are differences among DAC doesn't mean they'd all be equally suitable in all applications. I'm looking to straddle two areas here hugh9269 and simply want to indicate that if a person is really serious in determining whether two players are the same or different, at the very least you've got to make sure your evaluation is both level matched and unsighted. If you can hear a consistent difference and that translates to a preference, more power to you. If not, then you should consider what other criteria are important and shop accordingly.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #117 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 03:54 PM
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Amongst other internet resources, there are some interesting technical papers at the dcs website. Chu, if you've not yet read them, I think you'd find them interesting.
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post #118 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark russ View Post

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you can't hear a difference in CD players on your system, then you should buy the absolute cheapest one possible and then sleep soundly.

Except, there are preference issues too in buying components, right? And that may not support the cheapest.
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post #119 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonds View Post

I am just a dumb construction worker, so math is way above my head. How did I ever run a successful business for 20 years without a degree in math?

What about the different output stages in CDPs?


Well, I have no idea about your math capability, but I have run into construction foremen, contractors, who have almost zero comprehension of basic geometry and how to calculate the basic building math.

What about those output stages? Are they designed euphonic, or to be accurate and transparent. And, that aspect is also testable through DBt protocols and by instruments. You do trust your instruments at work, don't you? Or, just wing it by eye. Or, you also expect your crew to wing it by eye?
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post #120 of 366 Old 03-30-2007, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonds View Post

But you have never heard a reference cdp so you don't know.


That is absolutely meaningless in terms of having a reference anything. Who certified that CD player as being reference? And, Reference to what standards? Stereopiles? TAS?
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