SA-CD or universal player with pure DSD output via HDMI?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 06-15-2007, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I am looking to update my old Pioneer 563A and Oppo 970 to a much nicer transport. I am also looking at the Onkyo Integra pre-amp (coming this summer/fall for $1,600-- even has the Reon video processor, HDMI 1.3 inputs, and balanced outputs!!) with eight channels using Burr-Brown 1796 DAC's.

I was hoping the Integra would take DSD and decode it in its pure form, and if so I would want an SA-CD or universal player that could send the DSD bitstream out via HDMI. Most new DVD-Audio capable players already send unaltered multi-channel, high resolution PCM via HDMI, but not DSD (instead using a proprietary link that usually only works with their own products).

Is there such a beast coming out soon? I thought I heard rumors of a new Pioneer universal player that would... anyone know about this?

Thanks!

Dan

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post #2 of 40 Old 06-15-2007, 06:45 PM
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Apparently with HDMI 1.2 you can stream dsd SACD through the port. The problem is there is not one universal dvd audio/sacd player manufactured as we speak that has a HDMI 1.2 port. They are all HDMI 1.1 so it is limited to dvd audio. None of the current Pioneer Elite, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo players have a 1.2 HDMI out. Not sure about the top of the line yamaha but I doubt it. All the Players with 1.2 or 1.3 are bluray or hddvd and will not do the advanced audio. Most of the bluray players will not even play cd's.
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post #3 of 40 Old 06-15-2007, 06:49 PM
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not entirely true, PRO-630HD. the playstation 3 plays blu ray and SACD and has an HDMI 1.3 output. the only problem is, the software driving the HDMI port has to support passing the DSD bitstream, and the PS3 doesn't do that. AFAIK, there aren't any SACD players that output the DSD bitstream over regular HDMI. I believe some Denon SACD players can pass the bitstream, but only over a proprietary digital output to denon receivers. Anyone know the Denon info for sure?
I'm hoping that the PS3 will have DSD bitstream output added in a firmware update, since I just bought an onkyo 805, and it can accept and decode a DSD bitstream . . . .
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post #4 of 40 Old 06-15-2007, 07:40 PM
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elvisizer, as I stated there is not one current as of June 2007 universal dvd audio/sacd transpot that does dsd over the hdmi port as they are all using version 1.1 this includes all current Denon, Integra, Onkyo, Marantz, Parasound, Pioneer Elite and Yamaha. I have downloaded more manuals today than I care to mention as I am looking for one. What will pass the dsd stream though digitally is i link developed by Sony. Many players have these to include all of the above minus Parasound. Denon uses their propriety Denon link, but I believe the dsd is converted. The current problem is many of the newer receivers that decode DD+, True HD, and DTS-HD are dropping the i link feature. The new Pioneer Elites dropped i link. The new Sony's won't decode the newer audio formats. None of the new Onkyo receivers have i link either.
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post #5 of 40 Old 06-15-2007, 08:27 PM
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DSD is sent "as is" via DenonLink, just like i.Link. It may be encrypted using a different method than i.Link. i.Link worked well for audio. Too bad it didn't last.

larry

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post #6 of 40 Old 06-16-2007, 04:20 AM
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Ilink is all pure DSD. I think the Arcam player might support Pure DSD over HDMI ands also a recent midfi DVD player from Pioneer in Japan.
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post #7 of 40 Old 06-18-2007, 06:30 AM
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With the apparent reluctance/restrictions on sending native DSD digitally, I wonder why they bothered giving such capability its own HDMI rev.

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post #8 of 40 Old 06-19-2007, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar View Post

Ilink is all pure DSD. I think the Arcam player might support Pure DSD over HDMI ands also a recent midfi DVD player from Pioneer in Japan.

From customer support at Arcam:

"Audio output on HDMI is still a non-starter. There is simply way too much jitter. Hopefully the forthcoming 1.3 will solve this but we will have to see if it does."

So, no digital DSD on HDMI for the Arcam.

HTH
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post #9 of 40 Old 06-20-2007, 12:38 AM
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Looks like you will have to look at Ilink if this is really important to you.
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post #10 of 40 Old 06-26-2007, 08:28 AM
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I just noticed my Sony 9100ES has two i link ports. Are there other than Sony pre-pros that accept i link? Which Sony pre-pros accept it? The requirement for multiple cables stops me from considering multi-channel SACD.

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post #11 of 40 Old 06-26-2007, 12:12 PM
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I've finally given up on hoping for a receiver (and a player) that would support DSD transmission and decoding.

I'm going with the Oppo player that sends DVD-A over HDMI (PCM) and converts SA-CD to PCM (like the PS3) over HDMI. $180, can't go wrong...

Going with an iLink style or proprietary set up (player and receiver) doesn't make much financial sense unless you already own onw or just have to have DSD decoded by the receiver.

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post #12 of 40 Old 06-26-2007, 01:28 PM
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db,
Pio, Sony, Onkyo, and Denon (maybe Yamaha and Marantz) made players at one time or other that had i.Link output. Pio and Yamaha (Onkyo?) and I guess Sony had receivers with i.Link input. Denon also has DenonLink with can pass DSD in its recent incarnations.

larry

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post #13 of 40 Old 06-27-2007, 11:55 AM
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This is all bad news for me. One of the nicer things about my marantz sr7001 is that it can receive and process DSD signal. But whats the point if no player will pass it a pure DSD Signal ?
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post #14 of 40 Old 06-30-2007, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking at the Integra DTC-9.8 pre-amp (only $1,600) it says it accepts pure direct DSD via HDMI but converts it to PCM if you don't run in direct mode (wanting to use any DSP features).

I wonder if Integra will release a new universal player this year that will send DSD natively to their new processors (HDMI 1.3a has been added to their new line up). They use Burr-Brown 1796 DAC's and I wonder how well that DAC handles native DSD data.

Any word on the upcoming Pioneer universal player that was mentioned somewhere around here that also would send DSD natively through HDMI?

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post #15 of 40 Old 06-30-2007, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Looking at the Integra DTC-9.8 pre-amp (only $1,600) it says it accepts pure direct DSD via HDMI but converts it to PCM if you don't run in direct mode (wanting to use any DSP features).

I wonder if Integra will release a new universal player this year that will send DSD natively to their new processors (HDMI 1.3a has been added to their new line up). They use Burr-Brown 1796 DAC's and I wonder how well that DAC handles native DSD data.

Any word on the upcoming Pioneer universal player that was mentioned somewhere around here that also would send DSD natively through HDMI?

There are 1796 DACs that handle PCM and ones that handle DSD. Onkyo/Integra have a good reputation for audio (the SP1000 and DPS-10.5 uni's sound great). However if you want to offload the processing I'd wait for a inexpensive player that sends DSD via HDMI. Although some players already send DSD converted to PCM via HDMI and with a good processor you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. Don't get overcome with specs.

larry

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post #16 of 40 Old 06-30-2007, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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That's why I was wondering about the Pioneer Universal player that is to be released with DSD offloading besides DVD-Audio via HDMI... it would probably be a lot cheaper than an Integra. I don't want something uber expensive if it will only be used as an audio transport.

Anyone know about this particular product and its model number??

Since I was looking at the DTC 9.8 to replace my aging Outlaw 950 pre-amp, to AT LEAST be able to process multi-channel PCM (don't know yet what advanced disc authoring will bring to the table and if it will indeed force all players to do the audio decoding duties) since the 950 can't even do that, I also liked that it included the Reon-VX processor (I could also just send 480i from the uni player and satellite HDTV into the 9.8 and let it upscale to 1080p)... and DSD decoding is icing on the cake if it does a good job of it.

I'd rather just use a couple of cheap Monoprice HDMI cables than a rat's nest of analog audio and video cables. With the savings I could invest in some really good analog cables from the pre-amp to my power amp!

Dan

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post #17 of 40 Old 07-01-2007, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Anyone know about this particular product and its model number??

Pioneer DV-600AV sends DSD over HDMI. The manuals for it are downloadable here: http://www.service.pioneer-eur.com/p...delnr=DV-600AV
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post #18 of 40 Old 07-01-2007, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there currently or will there be a U.S. equivalent to the 600AV?

Thanks!

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post #19 of 40 Old 07-02-2007, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Is there currently or will there be a U.S. equivalent to the 600AV?

Thanks!

I'd also like to know. Anyone ?
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post #20 of 40 Old 07-14-2007, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donricouga View Post

I'd also like to know. Anyone ?

Not yet.

The DV-600AV started turning up in the UK about 2 weeks ago. The unts are multiregion, cost about $280 and AFAIK are multi voltage too. These units would play USA DVDs and DVDs from all over the world so more flexible than a USA model.

UK User reviews and multi region info here:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541644
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post #21 of 40 Old 07-15-2007, 12:40 PM
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Just bought one of them. Incredible value for the price.
As far as I know the voltage is clearly indicated 220/240 volt on my unit. (I bought it in Belgium)
It's not region free out of the box but a simple hack makes it region free.
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post #22 of 40 Old 07-16-2007, 02:46 PM
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So does the DV-600AV player have hdmi 1.2? I see in the manual reference to outputing DSD audio, but it doesn't specify what flavor of hdmi its using? I'd assume 1.2, but in the specifications it doesn't say. I'm wondering if its 1.1 and it does the trick like Oppo does of converting to PCM and then sending that over hdmi.
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post #23 of 40 Old 07-16-2007, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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The manual specifically states it sends DSD out through HDMI (otherwise it would say converted PCM out), so it must be HDMI 1.2 compliant. HDMI 1.3 allows the DST lossless compressed DSD stream to be output, but I know of no outboard decoders that can accept DST lossless (you'd need to include a Sony SA-CD decoder chip just for that), just uncompressed DSD.

The Oppo and others will send out DSD as PCM in one form or another because they have HDMI 1.1 transmitter chips. The PS3 has HDMI 1.3, but uses an older chipset that does not include high end audio bitstream out... the reason it can't spit out raw Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA off Blu-ray.

I'd import one but with it being 220 volt that won't work for the States. Hoping that Pioneer releases this here.

Dan

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post #24 of 40 Old 07-18-2007, 02:43 PM
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FWIW,the lexicon rt10, sacd processing is supposedly 100% dsd contains no pcm.But it does not have hdmi.
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post #25 of 40 Old 07-18-2007, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky1 View Post

FWIW,the lexicon rt10, sacd processing is supposedly 100% dsd contains no pcm.But it does not have hdmi.

There is no digital out that sends the DSD to a receiver. The only way to enjoy DVD-A or SACD on the Lexicon units is through the analog outs.

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post #26 of 40 Old 07-18-2007, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet-X View Post

There is no digital out that sends the DSD to a receiver. The only way to enjoy DVD-A or SACD on the Lexicon units is through the analog outs.

I realize that i may have misunderstood the post.I was just referring to DSD.
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post #27 of 40 Old 07-20-2007, 12:11 PM
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I though that unless your receiver or pre/pro has DSD DACs, the DSD gets converted to PCM before it hits the DACs anyway?

Does it really matter if the player converts it to PCM or the receiver?

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post #28 of 40 Old 07-21-2007, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesaint View Post

I though that unless your receiver or pre/pro has DSD DACs, the DSD gets converted to PCM before it hits the DACs anyway?

Does it really matter if the player converts it to PCM or the receiver?

Good point that most people seems to forget.

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post #29 of 40 Old 07-21-2007, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet-X View Post

I've finally given up on hoping for a receiver (and a player) that would support DSD transmission and decoding.

.

Don't despair:

The Denon DVD-3910, 3930Ci, 2930Ci, 5910 all transmit DSD via Denon Link 3 to:

Denon AVRs 3805, 3806, 4306, 4806 and higher models
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post #30 of 40 Old 07-22-2007, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesaint View Post

I though that unless your receiver or pre/pro has DSD DACs, the DSD gets converted to PCM before it hits the DACs anyway?

Does it really matter if the player converts it to PCM or the receiver?

Alot of Onkyos and Pioneers that accept DSD over ILink or HDMI have DSD dacs and do not convert to PCM as long as pure or direct modes are used. Most receivers that accept DSD have DSD DACs and will avoid PCM conversion if simple DSP modes are used.
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