CD vs. Vinyl...the DeathMatch! - Page 86 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2551 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 09:39 AM
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Only if you don't compare it to the original.



I sense another post about James Boyk coming on....
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post #2552 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 09:58 AM
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Krabapple, also don't overlook that the RIAA curve is only defined within a band limited region. No pics...sorry.

machani, yes, it would be interesting to take a well made digital copy of vinyl and do the analysis again in a similar fashion to the Japanese work. But then, that would require equipment that exists in only one place in the world.

More productive, IMO, would be people who could release multi-channel done well. Or engineers that stopped being active participants in the loudness wars. This other stuff, like what you linked to, probably has its greatest utility with manufacturers trying to figure out how they can keep getting diamond prices for commodity items. Obfuscation.

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post #2553 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 10:10 AM
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Is the 'comfortable listening level' test going to be your gold standard now? Is there any particular reason such an indirect indicator of difference is required...other than, you know, the inconvenient failure of people to tell the difference in a
plain old DBT?

And is there any empirical basis for embracing such a test? Any evidence at all that it is generally more sensitive than the standard ABX test? Not that I'm aware of. Scientists use ABX tests because they work--precisely because they have been shown to be extremely sensitive to very subtle sonic differences. No one's ever shown the same for a 'comfortable listening level' test. It's just a subjectivist excuse for ignoring all the work that's already been done.

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post #2554 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 10:47 AM
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If you mean, do I like to point out the logical fallacies of facile 'truisms'? Oh yeah.

You like to blame others because you can't comprehend paradoxes?

If you want to find arguments, you can always find them. The cantankerous life is not the happy life. Look for the good in all things.

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post #2555 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 10:55 AM
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Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

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post #2556 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 11:28 AM
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You like to blame others because you can't comprehend paradoxes?

If you want to find arguments, you can always find them. The cantankerous life is not the happy life. Look for the good in all things.

Look how well that works for you. You hardly ever get into arguments.
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post #2557 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 01:14 PM
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Look how well that works for you. You hardly ever get into arguments.

Does that mean your answer was, "yes?"

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post #2558 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 01:26 PM
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Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Om namo padme

I gave the Dali Lama a lime spritzer when I was in high school.

I took a workshop lead by the Dali Lama's brother and Allen Ginsberg, and took a class in college with Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen. As well as some other stuff more obscure...

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post #2559 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 05:17 PM
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More productive, IMO, would be people who could release multi-channel done well.

The only hope for this IMO is through video media with surround sound. I'm hoping Blu-Ray or an equivalent 2K x 4K resolution media with lossless audio tracks. I'd hate to have to constantly deal with adding more hard drives and re-downloading content at the speeds I get off the Internet most of the time, but this is eventually the direction it will likely go in. Though I would prefer a hard copy, which will likely be eliminated to try and prevent piracy...

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post #2560 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 05:57 PM
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Is the 'comfortable listening level' test going to be your gold standard now? Is there any particular reason such an indirect indicator of difference is required...other than, you know, the inconvenient failure of people to tell the difference in a
plain old DBT?

If statistically significant results can be found using CLLs, one way or the other, then it's relevant. (Now are you starting to get scared, and more shrill? )

C N Machani
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post #2561 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 06:09 PM
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If statistically significant results can be found using CLLs, one way or the other, then it's relevant.

Granted, but hypocritical coming from someone who denies the relevance of non-significant results from more standard tests.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #2562 of 2578 Old 04-11-2008, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by machani View Post

This is not to say vinyl is perfect. But high quality vinyl certainly sounds more transparent and truer to the original. CD's just don't sound "right" (and that includes Audiophile reference CD's I've heard).


Why do you say this when you don't have a clue if its true? Because it is NOT.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #2563 of 2578 Old 04-12-2008, 10:56 PM
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If statistically significant results can be found using CLLs, one way or the other, then it's relevant. (Now are you starting to get scared, and more shrill? )

It'll get relevant when one can do it on something other than one particular system that exists in only one place in the world. Right now, it's nothing more than a curiousity.

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post #2564 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 05:50 AM
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It'll get relevant when one can do it on something other than one particular system that exists in only one place in the world. Right now, it's nothing more than a curiousity.

How many different systems have they tried it on?

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post #2565 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 06:56 AM
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How many different systems have they tried it on?

Basically one, which they built themselves. According to them, no one else in the world has "heard" this hypersonic effect from an audio system except them and their test subjects. Kinda makes it irrelevant to a discussion of current home audio reproduction. Also sounds like an appropriate target for Chu Gai's favorite testing device.

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post #2566 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 08:01 AM
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Basically one, which they built themselves. According to them, no one else in the world has "heard" this hypersonic effect from an audio system except them and their test subjects. Kinda makes it irrelevant to a discussion of current home audio reproduction. Also sounds like an appropriate target for Chu Gai's favorite testing device.

It can possibly be true?!!

I can't believe people are wasting their precious lives arguing about this on either side of the fence...

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post #2567 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 08:35 AM
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I can't believe people are wasting their precious lives arguing about this on either side of the fence.

Well, nobody on my side of the fence would have paid this study any notice at all, obviously. But as it's the only study out there that even begins to suggest some audible limitations to Redbook, it has become for champions of both analog and hi-rez digital Definitive Proof That They Have Been Right All Along. Which it ain't.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #2568 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 09:29 AM
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Well, nobody on my side of the fence would have paid this study any notice at all, obviously. But as it's the only study out there that even begins to suggest some audible limitations to Redbook, it has become for champions of both analog and hi-rez digital Definitive Proof That They Have Been Right All Along. Which it ain't.

It's your life...

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post #2569 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 09:38 AM
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I just find it humorous that after all is said and done, when you are forced to confront the lives you lived this time around, your answers will be, "I argued with people online, despite knowing that arguing with them would not change their minds..."

It just seems like a futile existence to me I guess... I'm unsubscribing from this thread and moving on to threads where people are trying to do something positive, instead of gang banging other people who don't agree with their points of view.

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post #2570 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 09:51 AM
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I just find it humorous that after all is said and done, when you are forced to confront the lives you lived this time around, your answers will be, "I argued with people online, despite knowing that arguing with them would not change their minds..."

I'm not trying to change your mind. I consider that an impossible task. But there are lurkers out there whose viewpoint isn't yet locked in stone, and threads like this expose them to both sides of the argument. That, I think, is a greater service than telling them which $2000 amplifier to buy.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #2571 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 02:13 PM
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This is not to say vinyl is perfect. But high quality vinyl certainly sounds more transparent and truer to the original. CD's just don't sound "right" (and that includes Audiophile reference CD's I've heard).

Machani, can you explain to me, then, why one can record vinyl to CD, and have it sound like vinyl (i.e. the "information" on vinyl is preserved), and yet you can't record a CD to vinyl and have it sound like CD.

This test has been done a few times, to say the least, and the result, when level-matching and good dbt testing routines are followed, is quite clear. You can make a CD sound like an LP, but not vice versa. That shows, quite conclusively, that an LP has less information.

An LP does, demonstrably, have distortions that sound good. This is not news, this is something long since documented. Now, there's nothing wrong with liking those distortions, which in fact increase the sense of dynamic range and all-over spatial effect, among other things, but wouldn't it be better to add them to CD if you want to? And understand what you're doing?

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post #2572 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 02:57 PM
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I'm not trying to change your mind. I consider that an impossible task. But there are lurkers out there whose viewpoint isn't yet locked in stone, and threads like this expose them to both sides of the argument. That, I think, is a greater service than telling them which $2000 amplifier to buy.

You don't know what my opinion is on the topic. I guarantee it isn't what you think it is.

I hate to break it to you. Those lurkers aren't reading an 86 page thread...

Likely, those lurkers don't have enough information on the topic to understand the arguments anyway, despite being given the information. Watching you all, I am reminded of the story of Sisyphus. Making the same arguments over and over again, thinking you're finally getting somewhere, but you haven't gotten anywhere at all and then the argument starts all over again. Not only in new threads, but sometimes within the same thread! Now that is a purgatory on earth if I've ever seen one...

It is a source of schadenfreude for me...

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post #2573 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

It'll get relevant when one can do it on something other than one particular system that exists in only one place in the world. Right now, it's nothing more than a curiousity.

Here is a perfectly valid study, published in a reputable journal, from engineers/researchers from reputable institutions (and a reputable country, I might add, if you consider Japan to be technologically advanced). They have used specially designed instruments and environment for their experiment and that is why it is currently on one particular system. If others have conducted a similar study using comfortable listening levels (CLLs) and drawn different results then show it to me.

What is curious to me is the lack of open mind by you, mcnarus and others in this forum to consider even the possibility that your beliefs can be questioned. Where is even a discussion that "scientific minds" are supposed to have?

Because it challenges your belief system that RBCD is the "golden standard" it becomes a "curiosity". A possible deeper implication by you and others in this forum is one that the statistically results from Oohashi's studies have been somehow cooked up. And that's a pretty serious allegation to make, and I rest my case.

Like QueueCumber, I too am going to unsubscribe from this tread because valuable time is being wasted getting nowhere.

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Machani, can you explain to me, then, why one can record vinyl to CD, and have it sound like vinyl (i.e. the "information" on vinyl is preserved), and yet you can't record a CD to vinyl and have it sound like CD.

I'm not sure. I've not seen that study. Perhaps someone needs to do a study based on CLLs and lets see the results.

C N Machani
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post #2574 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 04:47 PM
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It can possibly be true?!!

I can't believe people are wasting their precious lives arguing about this on either side of the fence...

and yet, here you are...again.

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I just find it humorous that after all is said and done, when you are forced to confront the lives you lived this time around, your answers will be, "I argued with people online, despite knowing that arguing with them would not change their minds..."

It just seems like a futile existence to me I guess... I'm unsubscribing from this thread and moving on to threads where people are trying to do something positive, instead of gang banging other people who don't agree with their points of view.

and yet, here you are...again

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You don't know what my opinion is on the topic. I guarantee it isn't what you think it is.

I hate to break it to you. Those lurkers aren't reading an 86 page thread...

Likely, those lurkers don't have enough information on the topic to understand the arguments anyway, despite being given the information. Watching you all, I am reminded of the story of Sisyphus. Making the same arguments over and over again, thinking you're finally getting somewhere, but you haven't gotten anywhere at all and then the argument starts all over again. Not only in new threads, but sometimes within the same thread! Now that is a purgatory on earth if I've ever seen one...

It is a source of schadenfreude for me...

and yet, here you are, again...shameful joy and all

Btw, I'm not ashamed of the kick I get from deriding your ignorance and smug self-regard. I should thank you, I guess.
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post #2575 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 04:55 PM
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Here is a perfectly valid study, published in a reputable journal, from engineers/researchers from reputable institutions (and a reputable country, I might add, if you consider Japan to be technologically advanced). They have used specially designed instruments and environment for their experiment and that is why it is currently on one particular system. If others have conducted a similar study using comfortable listening levels (CLLs) and drawn different results then show it to me.

I did. A study that essentially refuted their findings. You want to ignore everything except the one flawed study that tells you what you want to hear.

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What is curious to me is the lack of open mind by you, mcnarus and others in this forum to consider even the possibility that your beliefs can be questioned. Where is even a discussion that "scientific minds" are supposed to have?

We aren't expressing beliefs. We're discussing the validity of scientific studies. And we're still waiting for you to produce a valid one that supports your position.

You're the one whose belief system apparently makes it impossible for you to even acknowledge the existence of studies that don't support your beliefs. Sad, really. Is being right about this topic that important to you?

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I'm not sure. I've not seen that study. Perhaps someone needs to do a study based on CLLs and lets see the results.

Yeah, he's only interested in the studies that produce the results he likes. Unfortunately, all the valid ones don't.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #2576 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

and yet, here you are...again.



and yet, here you are...again



and yet, here you are, again...shameful joy and all

Btw, I'm not ashamed of the kick I get from deriding your ignorance and smug self-regard. I should thank you, I guess.

How many posts over what stretch of time is that Krabapple?

Let's look over your posting history on these fora and see how long you've been doing it for...

In any case, I'm out of here... Especially, now that you're resorting to insulting me personally.

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post #2577 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 05:15 PM
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How many times over what stretch of time is that Krabapple?

Let's look over your posting history on these fora and see how long you've been doing it for...

In any case, I'm out of here... Now that you're resorting to insulting me personally.

and yet here you are...again.
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post #2578 of 2578 Old 04-13-2008, 06:30 PM
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And this death match is over.

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