The Definitive "Best of CD players" $0-500, $500-1000, $1000-1500, $1500-2000, 2000- - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 209 Old 10-11-2007, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GZeus View Post

POOF!!!

Thread-jackers suck!!

I hear ya, so do newbies!

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post #92 of 209 Old 10-12-2007, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I hear ya, so do newbies!

Congratulations on your 25 months at AVS - you are obviously a hardcore vet.

My comment was on the thread... which you actually contributed some helpful content to.
As for the rest, the topic was The Definitive "Best of CD players" $0-500, $500-1000, $1000-1500, $1500-2000, 2000-
Like so many threads here, the useful contributions stop before the second page... the rest is just an audio-appendage contest.
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post #93 of 209 Old 10-12-2007, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by GZeus View Post

Congratulations on your 25 months at AVS - you are obviously a hardcore vet.

My comment was on the thread... which you actually contributed some helpful content to.
As for the rest, the topic was The Definitive "Best of CD players" $0-500, $500-1000, $1000-1500, $1500-2000, 2000-
Like so many threads here, the useful contributions stop before the second page... the rest is just an audio-appendage contest.

I don't really think newbs suck...

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post #94 of 209 Old 10-16-2007, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cinemascope View Post

Can't you take this crap to PM or perhaps a speaker forum??

forget it cinemascope.....

this thread is a gonner..
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post #95 of 209 Old 10-17-2007, 06:25 PM
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so let's get back on track... I will start a new thread
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post #96 of 209 Old 11-09-2007, 04:18 PM
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I'm not sure if it is worth trying again, but...

I have been eyeing this player for some time, waiting for the price to near my range. Is a used Linn Genki worth the going rate of ~7 bills? I do not have a convenient way to audition these players, so I will have to go by reputation mostly.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....lay&1199045843
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post #97 of 209 Old 11-10-2007, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

At it again I see Chuey... Tsk tsk, you and Pulliamm need some new hobbies. All you two do is repeat yourselves over and over again in these threads. Don't you two get bored of pursuing the same argument over and over again? Perhaps it would be healthy to graduate to some other type of material. I'm surprised Krabbie, CharlesJ, et al., haven't showed up to chime in with the same old song and dance.

If CD players do sound different, I want to know why. Chu Gai says (I think) when they are level-matched with precision, they sound the same (with the exceptions he noted). This is an attractive theory, so the question I have is does it hold up when tested. If the argument is correct, that's all the explanation needed for why it's advocated.

I wonder what price point you'd want to hit if sound quality was your only consideration. Does anyone in the "reality-based community" have an idea?

ernie
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post #98 of 209 Old 11-10-2007, 10:29 AM
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Some of the difficulty with such "threads going south" is due to the fact that a controversial premise is built into the subject, that CD players are sonically different at various price points. It would be dishonest to simply play along and provide the familiar recs.

I wouldn't take a recommendation from someone that believed that $5,000 CD players are a worthwhile investment but doesn't believe it's worthwhile to find out if its true. Given what we know about listener bias, that's an astonishingly wasteful thing to do. How could anyone in good conscience tell someone to spend their money in such an irresponsible manner? By all means, indulge yourself if you must, but please don't deploy your cynicism to hurt others.

I would advise newbies to buy reasonably priced CD players and spend some time researching the subject. If at some future date you become convinced that high priced players do have sonic benefits, you can change your approach. In the meantime, you won't have wasted a lot of money.

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post #99 of 209 Old 11-10-2007, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by drogulus View Post

If CD players do sound different, I want to know why. Chu Gai says (I think) when they are level-matched with precision, they sound the same (with the exceptions he noted). This is an attractive theory, so the question I have is does it hold up when tested. If the argument is correct, that's all the explanation needed for why it's advocated.

I wonder what price point you'd want to hit if sound quality was your only consideration. Does anyone in the "reality-based community" have an idea?

What does that have to do with my post? You quoted the wrong person.

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post #100 of 209 Old 11-10-2007, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

What does that have to do with my post? You quoted the wrong person.

Ok, somebody with your name posted saying Chu Gai and Pulliam needed a new act. I said if they were right they didn't. So this guy and I disagree.

Actually it's not true that it harms newbies if the thread "goes south". This dispute is something they need to inform themselves about before they take one of the irresponsible recs that always appear in these threads. That's more important than some rec for a $5,000 Cd player from some technosnob who thinks it beneath him to explain why anyone should listen to him.

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post #101 of 209 Old 11-10-2007, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by drogulus View Post

Ok, somebody with your name posted saying Chu Gai and Pulliam needed a new act. I said if they were right they didn't. So this guy and I disagree.

Actually it's not true that it harms newbies if the thread "goes south". This dispute is something they need to inform themselves about before they take one of the irresponsible recs that always appear in these threads. That's more important than some rec for a $5,000 Cd player from some technosnob who thinks it beneath him to explain why anyone should listen to him.

What you are saying has nothing to do with my post (you misunderstood what I was saying)... Find someone else to harass.

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post #102 of 209 Old 11-10-2007, 05:30 PM
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So... after reading every post, most of it is garbage sigh.

Anybody do any comparisons between the Rotel RCD-1072 and Cambridge Audio Azur 740C? I own the Rotel but will be going to my local dealer soon to check out the CA 740C. I like that it has the 2 DAC inputs (perhaps for my computer server for music!). I am pretty happy with my rotel (got it for a steal), but I really want the features that the CA 740C bring to the table (hopefully without losing out on SQ). Another important point is that I want the motor to be quieter than that of the Rotel. During quiet passages, I can here my CD spinning in the rotel (i sit 5' away from the CDP) and this is somewhat annoying.
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post #103 of 209 Old 11-10-2007, 05:46 PM
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In the $0-500 range, you could get a player with HDCD decoding. This would actually improve the sound of at least some of your CDs. The process uses peak expansion and a lowering of average volume to restore lost fidelity. Of course, HDCD is totally unnecessary since CDs made from HDCD decodes sound exactly the same. If they weren't committed to overcompressing the music in the first place, there would be no need for the process. But since they would have to lower the volume by a significant amount to do this, it won't be done. It's the loudness war that's responsible for the problem, not some technical weakness that has to be overcome.

Too bad HDCD didn't make it in the marketplace. It would have given everyone a choice between the compressed version and the more dynamic one. I think many would agree with me that the decoded versions sound better. Anyway, NAD makes players in this range with HDCD decoding. I think it's worth having.

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post #104 of 209 Old 11-11-2007, 04:56 AM
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Based on what i have seen on the forums so far, many members are asking the same questions over and over about cd players. My suggestion is to have a definitive thread with reviews and opinions on cd players in all price ranges and categories.

For those who love music first, and tire of endless equipment upgrades second, do yourself a favor and pick up the December 2007 issue of The Absolute Sound.
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post #105 of 209 Old 11-12-2007, 07:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by drogulus View Post

I wonder what price point you'd want to hit if sound quality was your only consideration. Does anyone in the "reality-based community" have an idea?

As one of the very few representatives of the "reality-based community" on this forum, I can tell you that the price point in question is under $100. I spent a bit more than that ($170) largely because of convenience features, and got a player whose sonics cannot be improved upon.
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post #106 of 209 Old 11-12-2007, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

As one of the very few representatives of the "reality-based community" on this forum, I can tell you that the price point in question is under $100. I spent a bit more than that ($170) largely because of convenience features, and got a player whose sonics cannot be improved upon.


...not if you spent about the same on speakers and other electronics
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post #107 of 209 Old 11-12-2007, 08:45 AM
 
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...not if you spent about the same on speakers and other electronics

$800 MSRP integrated amp. Speakers ranging from $200 to $1500/pr.
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post #108 of 209 Old 11-12-2007, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

So... after reading every post, most of it is garbage sigh.

Anybody do any comparisons between the Rotel RCD-1072 and Cambridge Audio Azur 740C? I own the Rotel but will be going to my local dealer soon to check out the CA 740C. I like that it has the 2 DAC inputs (perhaps for my computer server for music!). I am pretty happy with my rotel (got it for a steal), but I really want the features that the CA 740C bring to the table (hopefully without losing out on SQ). Another important point is that I want the motor to be quieter than that of the Rotel. During quiet passages, I can here my CD spinning in the rotel (i sit 5' away from the CDP) and this is somewhat annoying.

Is the CD motor/spindle issue common for your player? You simply might need to get a copy of service manual and add some lubrication.

I've thought about getting a player with digital inputs in the past. They are usually more expensive that getting a separate player and dac, however.

- Steve O.
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post #109 of 209 Old 11-12-2007, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

For those who love music first, and tire of endless equipment upgrades second, do yourself a favor and pick up the December 2007 issue of The Absolute Sound.

Could you please supply the gist of the article/s of the the December issue?

"Man plans, God laughs"
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post #110 of 209 Old 11-12-2007, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by scorch123 View Post

Is the CD motor/spindle issue common for your player? You simply might need to get a copy of service manual and add some lubrication.

I've thought about getting a player with digital inputs in the past. They are usually more expensive that getting a separate player and dac, however.

- Steve O.

I was looking at the Benchmark DAC which goes for about 1k$, the CA goes for 1k$ and comes with a cdp

Ill call my dealer and see if there is anything wrong with the rotel, but i figured its just the standard mechanical noise of the particular transport.
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post #111 of 209 Old 11-12-2007, 11:30 AM
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If CD players do sound different, I want to know why.

So should we all. Manufacturers will manufacture their own reasons like this kind of oversampling, that kind of filter, an improved power supply, isolation, premium parts, lower jitter, the DAC game...you name it. Some of it are nothing more than technical improvements, some are things that sound like improvements but are cost-cutting, a lot is just hot air.

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Chu Gai says (I think) when they are level-matched with precision, they sound the same (with the exceptions he noted).

I'm saying unless you do that, you're confounding your evaluation with a variable that needn't be there. Small broad band discrepencies in volume amounting to a quarter dB or so are not readily recognizeable as something that is louder or softer. Instead, people will say that player is more forward or recessed...clearer...soundstage...focussed. Think of a term.

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This is an attractive theory, so the question I have is does it hold up when tested.

Try an experiment in your own home with some friends that don't know you're going to pull a fast one on them. Take your existing player and figure out using a VOM, what's 1/4 or 1/2 dB louder. Bring in the new CD player and fake hooking it up except for the power cord. Let your friends listen to the first player, then tell them you're going to have them listen to the second player but instead, adjust the settings so that the first player is playing 1/4 to 1/2 dB louder. Enlist their opinions.

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If the argument is correct, that's all the explanation needed for why it's advocated.

It's advocated for the reasons given in my second comment above. I'm not saying there won't be a difference or that there can't be on. I'm saying unless you eliminate that one important variable that exists, you'll never know if the difference you heard was due to a minute, or not so minute, overall level difference. That's all. If there is no difference when level matched, you can use whatever criteria that's important to you to select the player. It doesn't mean you have to buy the cheapest one. OTOH, if you're on a severely constrained budget, you can evaluate your budget selection to something way out of your price range. If there's no difference, you've saved money that can go to something more important. Like speakers.

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I wonder what price point you'd want to hit if sound quality was your only consideration. Does anyone in the "reality-based community" have an idea?

Sound quality can and is a matter of personal preference with no general consensus. It can sometimes mean a piece having a euphonic character that's pleasing to you. Consider there are players and DAC's without reconstruction filters that to some sound spectacular. I'm of the opinion, that if a vendor plays by the rules (adherence to the Nyquist criteria) that you might find the differences are pretty damned small. So small that simply being scrupulously precise with level matching that it becomes very tough to tell one from another. Throw in blind testing and you might find you've got better odds at playing craps in Vegas.

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post #112 of 209 Old 11-12-2007, 11:31 AM
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Jonomega, I seem to recall that a representative from Benchmark was on HeadFi a while back. You might want to see if you can dig up the thread as it made for good reading.

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post #113 of 209 Old 11-12-2007, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post


I'm saying unless you do that, you're confounding your evaluation with a variable that needn't be there. Small broad band discrepencies in volume amounting to a quarter dB or so are not readily recognizeable as something that is louder or softer. Instead, people will say that player is more forward or recessed...clearer...soundstage...focussed. Think of a term.

You're right, Chu Gai. I was extrapolating from your observations. One should expect players to sound the same if they are level matched. Which is the point of your proposed demo, that the differences people report, when they aren't explained by objective factors like the ones you mention, can be shown to be illusory.

If I was in the market for a CD player today, the absolute floor price would be in the neighborhood of $200.00, where the Oppo w/HDCD and SACD resides. So for me it comes down to features. $100.00 CD players may sound the same, but I'm never going to know from experience.

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post #114 of 209 Old 11-13-2007, 05:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Sound quality can and is a matter of personal preference with no general consensus. It can sometimes mean a piece having a euphonic character that's pleasing to you.

Good point. Instead of saying "all CD players sound alike", one should really say "all CD players designed to accurately reproduce the encoded signal sound alike". This category includes most or all budget players.
If you want a player intentionally designed to color and distort the sound, you will have to pay a lot more. (One of the many bizarre contradictions of audiophilia.)
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post #115 of 209 Old 11-13-2007, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Good point. Instead of saying "all CD players sound alike", one should really say "all CD players designed to accurately reproduce the encoded signal sound alike". This category includes most or all budget players.

Considering no reconstruction filter is perfect, and they all add audible signatures/artifacts, there is no singular, absolute way to reconstruct a signal (not yet at least...). Even people with doctorates in the field on these boards won't argue that "there are no audible differences between DACs between all people."

Suit yourself though, as you have never been a reasonable person... I don't see a reason to involve myself further in the lunacy.

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post #116 of 209 Old 11-13-2007, 12:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Considering no reconstruction filter is perfect, and they all add audible signatures/artifacts, there is no singular, absolute way to reconstruct a signal (not yet at least...). Even people with doctorates in the field on these boards won't argue that "there are no audible differences between DACs between all people."

Suit yourself though, as you have never been a reasonable person... I don't see a reason to involve myself further in the lunacy.

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post #117 of 209 Old 11-13-2007, 02:27 PM
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Considering no reconstruction filter is perfect, and they all add audible signatures/artifacts, there is no singular, absolute way to reconstruct a signal (not yet at least...).

Perfect, no. Whether the artifacts that are added when companies endeavor to do it right are audible is highly debateable.

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post #118 of 209 Old 11-13-2007, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Perfect, no. Whether the artifacts that are added when companies endeavor to do it right are audible is highly debateable.

It is debatable though...

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post #119 of 209 Old 11-14-2007, 03:30 AM
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It is also testable.

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post #120 of 209 Old 11-14-2007, 04:14 AM
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It is also testable.

Different topic.

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