What is it about 300+ dollar cd players that makes them sound better?? (I want detail - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 269 Old 01-11-2008, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ssteel01 View Post

... I'm just of the belief that there is an obvious benefit to having first hand knowledge whenever possible/practical.

But how do you know if that first habd knowledge is an illusion only and not reality? If the former, what good is it? To whom? A singular reality only?
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post #182 of 269 Old 01-11-2008, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

...
Hold on while I get my popcorn.

I don't see any moving pictures here
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post #183 of 269 Old 01-12-2008, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

schticker's schtick is hardly new. He's an audio gear dealer who's been posting on AVSforum for quite awhile.

Which instead of dismissing my points, is why you might want to listen.

Do you listen to your doctor or use WebMD for advice, because clearly your doctor (since he gets paid to help you) is a dishonest shill for the medical supply industry?

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #184 of 269 Old 01-12-2008, 05:05 PM
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Do you listen to your doctor or use WebMD for advice, because clearly your doctor (since he gets paid to help you) is a dishonest shill for the medical supply industry?

His doctor has a medical degree. Do you have an advanced degree in psychoacoustics? Or are you just a salesman?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #185 of 269 Old 01-12-2008, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by schticker View Post

Which instead of dismissing my points, is why you might want to listen.

Why would that be the case? What do you bring to the discussion table that is clearly based in facts?

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Originally Posted by schticker View Post

Do you listen to your doctor or use WebMD for advice, because clearly your doctor (since he gets paid to help you) is a dishonest shill for the medical supply industry?

You know this because you researched each and every MD out there? Who are audio dealers shilling for?
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post #186 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 04:50 AM
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And while we're at it, don't dismiss the points made by these learned folks when it comes to medicine either.


"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #187 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 06:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kyotousa View Post

Are you saying generic coffee beans taste the same as name brand coffee beans?

I have never seen gourmet coffee beans priced more than seven times as much as the generic ones!
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post #188 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 07:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

It's not. By the end of the 80s it was already possible to create CDs with dynamic range that exceeded that of 99.9% of home listening environments.

As mentioned previously, CDs did not evolve, but were designed right from the outset to provide sound quality beyond the limits of human hearing. If any CD sound less than perfect, the problem is with the mastering, not the format.
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post #189 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I wonder how many people who agree that randomized double blind drug trials are desirable, have ever participated in one?

I wonder how many people who disbelieve in perpetual motion machines, have ever tried one?

etc.

Well, if the topic of discussion were drug trials or perpetual motion machines....

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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

First hand *experience* does not necessarily equal *knowledge*. The whole point of objectivist arguments against claims made from *sighted* experiences of audio gear, is that it's too easy to draw the wrong conclusions ('knowledge') from them.

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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

But how do you know if that first habd knowledge is an illusion only and not reality? If the former, what good is it? To whom? A singular reality only?

Fair enough. I know that I said 'knowledge', which I agree, is probably not the apropriate term here, but I really meant 'experience'. My whole point was that I believe personal feedback is relevant here. If for nothing else, than to determine under what circumstances someone arrived at their conclusions. Then, you can form your own opinion of that person's *experience* and mix it together with liberal amounts of technical data to see where you come out.

Fundamentally, we're not talking about drug trials or refuting the concept of a geocentric universe. It's just comparing CD players. Sure, you can cite chapter and verse on published data and say, well, the experiments have already been done and I KNOW it's not going to matter, so I won't test anything and just KNOW that I'm right--no sense in reinventing the wheel. Similarly, instead of just randomly plugging in a CD player and making a purely subjective conclusion about how this CD player sounds HUGELY different than that one, why not at least TRY the experiment (i.e., level matching) to see what you find. Generically, to any person asking "will changing CD players make a difference?", I'd say...here's a bunch of reasons why it *shouldn't* matter...here's a bunch of people that *swear* that it makes a massive difference...will it matter for you? I don't know, but there's one sure fire way to find out.


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post #190 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Why would that be the case? What do you bring to the discussion table that is clearly based in facts?

I knew this response would get people uppity, since most here think anyone actually in the business is less informed somehow than those with their noses pressed against the glass.

Well believe it or not, audio types will do forms of DBT for fun--in relaxed environments where certain results are not expected (and therefore results skewed). Additionally, is it three or four figures in terms of types and combinations of product that our experience becomes valid? I'm just wondering since as for myself, the numbers are getting there.

Or it simply a piece of paper that defines one's expertise?

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You know this because you researched each and every MD out there? Who are audio dealers shilling for?

It's a common belief that simply by advocating certain brands that people in sales/PR/marketing are liars and shills. C'mon, like you didn't know that.

My doctor comment was steeped in sarcasm based on that common POV on this forum.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #191 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

I have never seen gourmet coffee beans priced more than seven times as much as the generic ones!

I can assure you there are.... Try Jamaica's Blue Mountain, Thailand's Golden bean, or some other exotic kind.
I mean watever...you can use wine as example as well I just used coffee.

I don't know if cinnamon actually taste different, cuz I don't really use them that much. But it might.....who knows.
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post #192 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 03:53 PM
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I'm going to make a thread:

"What is it about $300 CD players that makes them not sound as good as $3000 ones?"

Would be interesting to see if people can reverse their thinking for once.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #193 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 04:21 PM
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Fair enough. I know that I said 'knowledge', which I agree, is probably not the apropriate term here, but I really meant 'experience'. My whole point was that I believe personal feedback is relevant here.
If for nothing else, than to determine under what circumstances someone arrived at their conclusions. Then, you can form your own opinion of that person's *experience* and mix it together with liberal amounts of technical data to see where you come out.

Which is exactly what is done, and it's just what you complained about: a *skeptical* opinion formed about the claims made from experience, when that experience is 'sighted' comparison, and the technical data don't support the claims either. So what, really, are you objecting to?



Quote:


Fundamentally, we're not talking about drug trials or refuting the concept of a geocentric universe. It's just comparing CD players. Sure, you can cite chapter and verse on published data and say, well, the experiments have already been done and I KNOW it's not going to matter, so I won't test anything and just KNOW that I'm right--no sense in reinventing the wheel.

But who on the 'objective' side is saying "I KNOW" it's not going to matter, etc without qualification? In fact, it's been agreed that audible differences are POSSIBLE (measurable differences are almost CERTAIN). But possible is not the same as likely. In that regard it is very much like drug trials (which rarely offer 100% yes/no answers), and even geocentricity, because ALL scientific claims are claims of likelihood at heart. The strength and amount of data on 'CDPs likely to sound different' versus 'likely to sound the same' (when level-matched) are NOT the same -- the preponderance of technical data do NOT support 'likely audible difference' (the measured differences tend to be very small from a perceptual standpoint), and neither do data on the accuracy of sighted listening.
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post #194 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

And while we're at it, don't dismiss the points made by these learned folks when it comes to medicine either.


I was looking for them the last time I needed such advice but couldn't find them in time
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post #195 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 06:39 PM
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To answer the title question of this thread, we have from today's news:

Higher wine prices boost drinking pleasure: study
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...43681520080114

covered here too:

Study: $90 wine tastes better than the same wine at $10
http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-984...ml?tag=newsmap

To paraphrase Shakespeare:
Lord, what fools we mortals be.
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post #196 of 269 Old 01-14-2008, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

To answer the title question of this thread, we have from today's news:

Higher wine prices boost drinking pleasure: study
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...43681520080114

covered here too:

Study: $90 wine tastes better than the same wine at $10
http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-984...ml?tag=newsmap

To paraphrase Shakespeare:
Lord, what fools we mortals be.

The fact that the particular subjects of the study were mislead into believing that the same wine in a different bottle tasted different when it was marked with a higher price does not establish that two different wines taste the same or that perceived taste differences between two different wines are solely attributable to differences in price. It is indeed an interesting study on the effects of marketing on certain people, but it hardly is dispositive regarding the question at hand.

Or to put it another way:
You wouldn't know a non sequitur if it walked up and bit you.

P.S. You also seem to take special delight in making fun of people in general, regularly making comments to the effect that they are fools. That's not a particularly healthy attitude. In any event, it's a bias or prejudice in the same way a preference for a higher price is a bias or prejudice, and both types of biases/prejudices are apt to color one's judgment on some of the questions that have been discussed in this thread.
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post #197 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Which is exactly what is done, and it's just what you complained about: a *skeptical* opinion formed about the claims made from experience, when that experience is 'sighted' comparison, and the technical data don't support the claims either. So what, really, are you objecting to?

Nobody said anything about sighted vs. blind. I just said tell me what your personal conclusions were and how you arrived at them. Then, I'll form my own opinion on the relative *weight* of your assertation. I'm perfectly willing and able to find things wrong with anyone's methodology and/or data, whether or not it suits my personal opinion...


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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

But who on the 'objective' side is saying "I KNOW" it's not going to matter, etc without qualification? In fact, it's been agreed that audible differences are POSSIBLE (measurable differences are almost CERTAIN). But possible is not the same as likely.

Well, I'm not going to name names, but the gut response from the 'objective' camp (and please understand, I'm not using that as a dirty word) is generally that there's no difference. In all fairness, if people can keep from really locking horns, that stance generally does seem to relax into 'not likely to be differences'. Honestly, if the objectivist party line is really: it's possible that there's differences, but if they do exist, they're just not huge...then sign me up.


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post #198 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 06:55 AM
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In the vast majority of things, it does seem that when running analog out, variations in output voltages do a nice job at accounting for perceived subjective differences, don't you think?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #199 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

In the vast majority of things, it does seem that when running analog out, variations in output voltages do a nice job at accounting for perceived subjective differences, don't you think?

I'd be interested to see some sort of table listing out various CDPs and their output voltages. If anyone knows of one, please share...though I suspect I know what I'd find.


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post #200 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 07:15 AM
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My three players are rated like this:

Rotel RCD-1072: 2.0 Volts
Arcam FMJ CD 33: 2.2 Volts
Harman Kardon Fl 8385: 1.2 Volts

When you go from the H/K to the Rotel or the Arcam, there's a "wow" factor that make people think the differences are huge.
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post #201 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 07:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ssteel01 View Post

Honestly, if the objectivist party line is really: it's possible that there's differences, but if they do exist, they're just not huge...then sign me up.

That is certainly what I know to be true. Expressing it as "no difference" is simply taking an extreme stance to counter the equally extreme stance of "clearly audible difference". I don't know how to obtain exact numbers, but I would expect that spending 100X as much on a CD player might get you a 1% improvement.
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post #202 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

The fact that the particular subjects of the study were mislead into believing that the same wine in a different bottle tasted different when it was marked with a higher price does not establish that two different wines taste the same or that perceived taste differences between two different wines are solely attributable to differences in price. It is indeed an interesting study on the effects of marketing on certain people, but it hardly is dispositive regarding the question at hand.

Or to put it another way:
You wouldn't know a non sequitur if it walked up and bit you.

P.S. You also seem to take special delight in making fun of people in general, regularly making comments to the effect that they are fools. That's not a particularly healthy attitude. In any event, it's a bias or prejudice in the same way a preference for a higher price is a bias or prejudice, and both types of biases/prejudices are apt to color one's judgment on some of the questions that have been discussed in this thread.

That's why people shouldn't quote study without fully understand them...
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post #203 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 07:47 AM
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1.2V vs 2.2V...that's what...like a 5dB difference? Yeah...that would be noticeable.

Rega Apollo: 2.175V (Stereophile)

FWIW, and PLEASE understand that I'm not saying in any way at all that I thought it was a bad player (quite the contrary), but the Rotel was one of the only CDPs that I thought sounded significantly different than (for example) the Apollo. But the voltage difference between the two would be under 1dB (if I'm understanding things correctly...and I'll freely admit that I may not be...), which probably *shouldn't* be noticeable.


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post #204 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 07:57 AM
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But the voltage difference between the two would be under 1dB (if I'm understanding things correctly...and I'll freely admit that I may not be...), which probably *shouldn't* be noticeable.

A difference of less than 1 dB wouldn't be noticeable as a volume difference, but it would be noticeable as a sound quality difference. IOW, the louder one wouldn't sound louder, but it would probably sound better, and certainly different.

To avoid differences caused by output levels alone, you have to match levels to within 0.1 dB.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #205 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 08:01 AM
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It may well be noticeable in particular ranges of the frequency spectrum and not others. That's why it wouldn't sound louder but rather different. Scott, JND's vary with respect to the frequency ranges so you woudn't pick out a difference of under a dB at say 100 Hz, but in the 1-5 kHz range, give or take, you'd perceive that segment as different. It's like one of those studio gizmos where they're giving boosts and cuts to certain segments. Does that make sense?

Also, the wine study, while rigidly a non sequitur with respect to the topic at hand, is merely indicative of how a particular sense - taste - is influenced by other senses and advanced information. None of our senses should be considered as some sort of hard drive repository where information is stored perfectly for later recall. In another thread in this forum we have the example of the Pioneer DVD player being rebadged at a 60x markup by Goldmund.

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post #206 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 08:02 AM
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Which Rotel Scott?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #207 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

It may well be noticeable in particular ranges of the frequency spectrum and not others. That's why it wouldn't sound louder but rather different. Scott, JND's vary with respect to the frequency ranges so you woudn't pick out a difference of under a dB at say 100 Hz, but in the 1-5 kHz range, give or take, you'd perceive that segment as different. It's like one of those studio gizmos where they're giving boosts and cuts to certain segments. Does that make sense?

Okay, I suppose that makes sense. I was having a hard time getting my head around how one could perceive a difference in sound quality if the only variable (i.e., volume) was at or below the point of jnd. Correct me if I'm wrong, but any such 'goose-ing' at a specific FR should be evident in the CDP's measurements, no?

It was the same Rotel that Jorge referenced...the 1072.


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post #208 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 08:32 AM
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Well, I'm not going to name names, but the gut response from the 'objective' camp (and please understand, I'm not using that as a dirty word) is generally that there's no difference. In all fairness, if people can keep from really locking horns, that stance generally does seem to relax into 'not likely to be differences'. Honestly, if the objectivist party line is really: it's possible that there's differences, but if they do exist, they're just not huge...then sign me up.

Well, different people express ideas differently, and some (even in the "objective" camp) have a deeper understanding of this than others. So let me try to clear things up a little for you:

We cannot prove a negative. Even a DBT that produces a purely random result cannot prove conclusively that the two players are indistinguishable. There's always some uncertainty, which is the major reason you see objectivists use various qualifications.

OTOH, once you've done dozens of DBTs of CD players, and the only positive results involve a few odd designs that measure very differently, and once you've measured hundreds of CD players and found that almost all their differences fall far below the thresholds of what human ears can detect, it becomes reasonable to assume that any two CD players will be indistinguishable unless one is of an exotic design likely to measure very differently from the typical player.

That, as best as I can put it, is the "objectivist" position. Note that it says absolutely nothing about the magnitude of any differences between the occasional players that are distinguishable. They might in fact be "huge" by someone's definition of the term.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #209 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 09:00 AM
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No, we're not talking about such non-linearities in the FR of the players Scott. What we're talking about is nothing more than a simple overall level change (2.2 vs 2.0 volts for example). With respect to the FR, all that does is shift the 'straight' line up or down a bit. However, our ears don't respond linearly across the range meaning that for small enough differences, we just don't hear it as being louder or softer overall. We simply perceive it as different and how we qualitatively express that difference can be in any number of ways. The usual descriptors of which there are too many to list.

I'm not up on all the various players that are out there, but I'm sure there are some that allow you to take your music and equalize it to your liking. Download one and dick around with the sliders in that 1-5 kHz range and just listen. BTW, if you need a copy of Florentine's work on JND's, I might have a copy laying around.

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post #210 of 269 Old 01-15-2008, 09:17 AM
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Just to emphasize the enormous influence of voltage output, the Wadia 861is a beast that can throw up to 8 volts or something like that (it has digital volume control onboard).

Now imagine it against the RCD-1072 with its standard 2.0 volts output. "No match" should be the average comment, followed by "its absolutely logic, we're talking about a 800 dollars player compared to a 8,000 dollars beauty"....

When level matched to Fluke VOM accuracy, the results are quite different gentlemen...
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Closed Thread CD Players & Dedicated Music Transports

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