Vinyl May Be Final Nail in CD's Coffin - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 234 Old 01-12-2008, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ruadmaa View Post

Call it whatever you want, the signal is altered before it is cut into the record. Doesn't really matter much though. With vinyl if you play the same recording with 10 different phono cartridges, you get 10 different sounding playbacks. Nothing consistent about it.


This is partly right. You are totaly wrong about the riaa correction. But you are right that some cartridges are coloring the sound. But there are some that are extremly neutral and don't color the sound.

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post #92 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 04:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

This is NOT compression at all. You use a phonostage to get the SAME signal before the riaa stage, so maybe you should look this up before you say something like this.

Quite frankly at this point in time it is a moot point. I have been buying vinyl records ever since the 1950's and have hundreds of disks laying around here. You have no idea of how much an improvement digital sound was over analog. Digital sound is the most accurate there is and it can be reproduced accurately by any cd player and sounds just about the same in each case. It is not dependent on how good your turntable is, how good a quality the vinyl is, how expensive your phono cartridge is, and so on and so forth. From my point of view it is hard to imagine why anyone would prefer vinyl with all its' clicks and pops and just plain high noise floor. As stated above I have a lot of analog recordings here dating form Edison Amberol cylinder records, bakelite grammophone records (both lateral cut and vertical cut) up the latest vinyl. I find it to be fun as a collectable but when I want to listen to some serious music I use digital audio.

Incidentally, the last turntable I bought was back in the 1970's which was a Pioneer PL540 mounted with a Shure V15 type IV phono cartridge. Perhaps not high end but it does offer respectable analog audio playback.

As a simple fun fact, when CD's first came out the Columbia Record Club flat out stated that they would not be selling them. Too bad they didn't notice that their corporation was owned by Sony who had a major part in inventing digital audio. Needless to say, they ended up selling CDs whether they liked it or not.

No flaming on this post please, if you don't agree, that's fine.
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post #93 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ruadmaa View Post

Quite frankly at this point in time it is a moot point. I have been buying vinyl records ever since the 1950's and have hundreds of disks laying around here. You have no idea of how much an improvement digital sound was over analog. Digital sound is the most accurate there is and it can be reproduced accurately by any cd player and sounds just about the same in each case. It is not dependent on how good your turntable is, how good a quality the vinyl is, how expensive your phono cartridge is, and so on and so forth. From my point of view it is hard to imagine why anyone would prefer vinyl with all its' clicks and pops and just plain high noise floor. As stated above I have a lot of analog recordings here dating form Edison Amberol cylinder records, bakelite grammophone records (both lateral cut and vertical cut) up the latest vinyl. I find it to be fun as a collectable but when I want to listen to some serious music I use digital audio.

Well, since you don't need your vinyl collection any more, can I have it?

People have already posted comparisons between some modern day CDs and their analog counterparts. Sometimes the mastering is more realistic sounding (not compressed to the point where the recording sounds unnatural). Sometimes there are multiple/alternative masters available. If they mastered modern CDs properly, instead of trying to make them sound obnoxiously loud by ruining the natural dynamic contrast, I wouldn't have to buy vinyl. Though, I would likely buy vinyl anyway, just to own multiple masters of albums I like, which is fun in and of itself for anyone who "loves" music. I even compared one CD version of MFSL Aja without excessive dynamic contrast with its vinyl counterpart. Both sounded great, but the CD version still had minor audible compression in comparison.

I rarely get any noise floor during actual music playing and/or pops/ticks worth returning an LP over, and when I do, I return it for an exchange... So it really doesn't bother me that much. If you love the music, having alternative masters, and less compression, you eventually get over any minor flaws that aren't worth returning a record over and just enjoy the music. If someone isn't capable of doing that, then I agree, stay away from vinyl, you'll only frustrate yourself. The advantages have to be worth it to you...

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post #94 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 07:20 AM
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So, Ruadmaa, you are Pulliman's long lost relative ! Good Lord you have the same MO !

On the serious side of all this hoopla......LP's are not going to put the death nail into CD's, we all know that. As has been stated over and over and over before, the next generation of hard disc, down load media , whatever along with some of the horrible mastering of CD's (for which there is no excuse) will cause it's demise.
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post #95 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 07:30 AM
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As far as I know there is no correct nr available

Then how do you know the RIAA numbers are incorrect? Obviously, you don't. I know you're a big vinyl fan, but that's no excuse for simply inventing "facts" to suit your agenda.

Vinyl sales have been pretty stagnant for a decade, and we've been reading about a vinyl resurgence for almost as long. Hasn't happened yet. As for "last year," those figures aren't out yet. We shall see (but don't hold your breath).

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post #96 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

On the serious side of all this hoopla......LP's are not going to put the death nail into CD's, we all know that. As has been stated over and over and over before, the next generation of hard disc, down load media , whatever along with some of the horrible mastering of CD's (for which there is no excuse) will cause it's demise.

I'm hoping Blu-Ray will start putting out surround albums besides live concerts at some point, as well as down-mixed two channel options. I think this would be a great way to replace SACD and DVD-A. It would be a wise move to consolidate all of the higher resolution formats into one medium. Drawing in more people to that one format will create a greater chance of success IMO.

Unfortunately, unlike with the SACD format, the same pitfall of over-compression is easily abused on the Blu-Ray's digital schemes, as it is on CD and DVD-A. Sadly, the inability to "abuse" compression on SACD made it the best format for music enthusiasts, but the variety of genre is severely lacking, at least in terms of modern music, and people just aren't that interested in "quality" of music, as is demonstrated by the prevalence of over-compression as well as MP3 usage. As my wife articulated, and I paraphrase, "music is for background listening while you do other things." That is exactly the problem music enthusiasts are dealing with...

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post #97 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Then how do you know the RIAA numbers are incorrect? Obviously, you don't. I know you're a big vinyl fan, but that's no excuse for simply inventing "facts" to suit your agenda.

It has been argued over and over again... RIAA numbers aren't correct. That is a fact. They even list "projected" margins of error on their website. This means that even their margins of error are a "guess."

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post #98 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 08:27 AM
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It has been argued over and over again... RIAA numbers aren't correct. That is a fact.

This is an interesting kind of logic--can you refute something with nothing? Because you got nothing.

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They even list "projected" margins of error on their website. This means that even their margins of error are a "guess."

Well, now we know you're really just making stuff up. Here's what they actually say on the page I linked to:

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For 2006, the reliability of the data among 1,200+ past-month music buyers is +/- 2.8% at a 95% confidence level.


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post #99 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

This is an interesting kind of logic--can you refute something with nothing? Because you got nothing.

Actually, go to the RIAA home page. It says they only track approximately 90% of all legitimate sound recordings produced and sold in the United States.

Let's see... That leaves anything outside the USA off their statistics. That leaves out 10% or more inside the USA (since it is only an approximation, not a "fact"). To top it all off, they don't list LPs separately, so you have no idea what is going on in that subcategory either. You are standing on shaky grounds in terms of claiming any "factual" basis to your logistical arguments concerning vinyl sales numbers.

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post #100 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Well, now we know you're really just making stuff up. Here's what they actually say on the page I linked to:

I didn't make anything up. It is right there on their website. BTW, a +-2.8% margin of error is pretty damn large when you are talking units in the numbers they are discussing. Not to mention that a 95% confidence level means there is a 5% chance that they are wrong and the margin is even larger or smaller. Funny enough, that is exactly what I said. Yet you proved I was right in your own post while trying to contest my point...

Of course, we still have that +-10% unaccounted for in the USA, plus all those non-US, non-RIAA sales that aren't being tracked...

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post #101 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 10:08 AM
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Actually, go to the RIAA home page. It says they only track approximately 90% of all legitimate sound recordings produced and sold in the United States.

A reference to their shipping data, not their consumer survey. Because their shipping data comes from their members.

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Let's see... That leaves anything outside the USA off their statistics. That leaves out 10% or more inside the USA (since it is only an approximation, not a "fact"). To top it all off, they don't list LPs separately, so you have no idea what is going on in that subcategory either.

Of course, the RIAA only concerns itself with the U.S. (What do you think the second A stands for?) There are British and EU equivalents you could go look up; then you might have some actual facts at your disposal. And the consumer survey specifies "Vinyl LP" as the category--did you even bother to check the page I cited?

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BTW, a +-2.8% margin of error is pretty damn large when you are talking units in the numbers they are discussing. Not to mention that a 95% confidence level means there is a 5% chance that they are wrong and the margin is even larger or smaller.

I would suggest before you start arguing about statistics you should learn some. Any set of statistics (not that you have any) would have a margin of error, cited exactly this way. It does not mean that the margin of error is "a guess." And if you want to prove a statistic wrong, you've got to come up with a better statistic. Till you do, this is the best data we have on vinyl sales in the US. Sorry.

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post #102 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

A reference to their shipping data, not their consumer survey. Because their shipping data comes from their members.


Of course, the RIAA only concerns itself with the U.S. (What do you think the second A stands for?) There are British and EU equivalents you could go look up; then you might have some actual facts at your disposal. And the consumer survey specifies "Vinyl LP" as the category--did you even bother to check the page I cited?

Neither of which matters, all I need to show is that there are no 100% factual figures... There is a wide enough margin of doubt in all of these statistics, no matter their origin. Not to mention that if only 100K vinyl records were sold last year and 120K vinyl records were sold this year, that constitutes quite a statistical resurgence in sales percentile-wise, one that would be quite veiled in the RIAA system.

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I would suggest before you start arguing about statistics you should learn some. Any set of statistics (not that you have any) would have a margin of error, cited exactly this way. It does not mean that the margin of error is "a guess." And if you want to prove a statistic wrong, you've got to come up with a better statistic. Till you do, this is the best data we have on vinyl sales in the US. Sorry.

I've taken classes in statistics, so your haughty blather about my background just comes off as conceited ignorance. The figures are a guess, albeit an educated guess. For it not to be a guess, it would have to be certain... It is not certain.

This has been argued before in previous threads... Why not go read up on it before wasting any more time on it in this thread. You remind me a lot of mzillch, are you sure you are not the same person with a different name?

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post #103 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 11:31 AM
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Unfortunately, unlike with the SACD format, the same pitfall of over-compression is easily abused on the Blu-Ray's digital schemes, as it is on CD and DVD-A. Sadly, the inability to "abuse" compression on SACD made it the best format for music enthusiasts

Do you have a link that support this supposed inability? Crappy produced/mastered recordings are just that, whatever format, and SA-CD is no more immune to this than RBCD or DVD-A.
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post #104 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by allsop4now View Post

Do you have a link that support this supposed inability? Crappy produced/mastered recordings are just that, whatever format, and SA-CD is no more immune to this than RBCD or DVD-A.

Sure, it is under Comparing SACD and CD...

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post #105 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 11:45 AM
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As mentioned by AndreYew in an older thread on the 20K+ forum:

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Originally Posted by AndreYew View Post

Because of DSD's nature, you cannot put highly compressed material on DSD, otherwise it overloads. While this is a good thing in this instance, it also shows the inflexibility of the system.

--Andre

So yes, it is more immune than RBCD, and DVD-A.

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post #106 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 11:55 AM
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Unfortunately, you also can't perform digital manipulation (room correction, digital EQ, etc) of the DSD signal without turning it into a temporary or permanent form of typical PCM. So what you record is what you get, unless you decide to turn it into PCM at a later point to alter it.

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post #107 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 12:17 PM
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Here is a funny quote from the Wikipedia Statistics webpage, under the "Misuse" section:

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Harvard President Lawrence Lowell wrote in 1909 that statistics, "like veal pies, are good if you know the person that made them, and are sure of the ingredients."

More of interest from the Wikipedia Misuse of Statistics section:

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Many people may not realize that the randomness of the sample is very important. In practice, many opinion polls are conducted by phone, which distorts the sample due in several ways, including exclusion of people who do not have phones, favoring people who have more than one phone, favoring people who are willing to participate in a phone survey over those who refuse, etc. Non-random sampling makes the estimated error unreliable.


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post #108 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Then how do you know the RIAA numbers are incorrect? Obviously, you don't. I know you're a big vinyl fan, but that's no excuse for simply inventing "facts" to suit your agenda.


Why not check things out before shouting?
There are 11 vinyl pressingplant still in USA. Just the biggest are pressing between 4,8 to 10 million 12 inch vinyles EVERY YEAR! And them there are 10 plants more.
So, if you can do math, you understand that the Riaa nr are not correct.

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post #109 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ruadmaa View Post

Quite frankly at this point in time it is a moot point. I have been buying vinyl records ever since the 1950's and have hundreds of disks laying around here. You have no idea of how much an improvement digital sound was over analog. Digital sound is the most accurate there is and it can be reproduced accurately by any cd player and sounds just about the same in each case. It is not dependent on how good your turntable is, how good a quality the vinyl is, how expensive your phono cartridge is, and so on and so forth. From my point of view it is hard to imagine why anyone would prefer vinyl with all its' clicks and pops and just plain high noise floor. As stated above I have a lot of analog recordings here dating form Edison Amberol cylinder records, bakelite grammophone records (both lateral cut and vertical cut) up the latest vinyl. I find it to be fun as a collectable but when I want to listen to some serious music I use digital audio.


And why not compare some vinyls with the CD version? If you have a good table, you will be surprised that in some cases, the vinyl will sound better.

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post #110 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 07:04 PM
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Neither of which matters, all I need to show is that there are no 100% factual figures.

By that standard,every statistic ever gathered is "wrong." If your argument depends on such inane sophistry, it isn't much of an argument.

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post #111 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 07:09 PM
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There are 11 vinyl pressingplant still in USA. Just the biggest are pressing between 4,8 to 10 million 12 inch vinyles EVERY YEAR! And them there are 10 plants more.

Interesting. Where did you dig up this bit of info?

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post #112 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

By that standard,every statistic ever gathered is "wrong." If your argument depends on such inane sophistry, it isn't much of an argument.

You pick out one line, but ignore the larger picture I have intimated. Their information gathering technique (phone polling) doesn't fit random sampling anyway. Not to mention, the sample size is likely biased against vinyl due to under-representation, since their sample size is only ~1200 which would skew the results in favor of the more popular formats/media. I'm sure I could find more issues with the study if I had more time to spend on it and if The Taylor Research & Consulting Group, Inc. would actually list their precise methodology, which they don't. As quoted earlier: statistics, "like veal pies, are good if you know the person that made them, and are sure of the ingredients. (Lawrence Lowell)"

The pathetic thing about your argument is, you argue as if the uncertain is a certainty, which it isn't in this situation. You can't turn something that isn't "black and white" into a "black and white" argument without making yourself look foolish.

There is nothing more entertaining than someone pretending to be an objectivist, whose objectivism drops the minute he becomes impassioned by and/or attached to an argument he has made.

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post #113 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by allsop4now View Post

Do you have a link that support this supposed inability? Crappy produced/mastered recordings are just that, whatever format, and SA-CD is no more immune to this than RBCD or DVD-A.


The inability to abuse compression in SACD applies only to 'pure' DSD recordings/transfers. If there is an intermediate PCM step, which there often is, compression can be applied there, and it will still be there on the SACD.
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post #114 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ruadmaa View Post

Call it whatever you want, the signal is altered before it is cut into the record.

But the 'alteration' is compensated for exactly on playback through a phono preamp. So you never 'hear' the alteration. RIAA EQ is not a problem...it *prevents* problems.

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Doesn't really matter much though. With vinyl if you play the same recording with 10 different phono cartridges, you get 10 different sounding playbacks. Nothing consistent about it.

Yes, phono carts are among the types of audio components that ARE likely to sound different in blind tests -- and that will also be apparent in measurements.
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post #115 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Insulting? You should read more what he have wrote before. Yes, some people can prefer undynamic sound, that is ok.
As far as I know there is no correct nr available

I read that Warner had a 30% increase sale on vinyl last year and a chain of independent music retailers, Newbury Comics, vinyl sales were up 37% last year.


Yes, and if you sell 5 apples today, and 10 apples tomorrow, that's a 100% increase in sales! Wowie!

Percent increase figures mean little unless you know either the 'before' or 'after' number.
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post #116 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allsop4now View Post

Do you have a link that support this supposed inability? Crappy produced/mastered recordings are just that, whatever format, and SA-CD is no more immune to this than RBCD or DVD-A.

Actually, the Scarlet Book spec for SACD *does* forbid levels that produce digital 'clipping', while REd Book spec (for CD) does not. Furthermore, in order to apply extensive digital processing to a DSD recording/transfer, it has to be taken out of the pure 1 bit DSD realm, and into either 'normal' production PCM (24 or 32 bit) , or 'wide' versions of DSD (8 bit) which are themselves a form of PCM. So *if* you keep the recording purely in 1-bit DSD, it is not possible to create highly compressed, clipped recording.

However, if a recording has gone through one of the above PCM stages, then
it is quite possible to compress it, though in the end the peak levels will still have to be kept below the Scarlet Book limits. Similarly, if you make a habit of looking at waveforms, you'll see many modern CDs (and some DVD-As) that have been driven to digitally clipping (consecutive samples at 0dbFS) at some stage in production, then brought down a little in level later in production so the clipped samples now are at less than 0 dBFS.
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post #117 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 10:34 PM
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Why not check things out before shouting?
There are 11 vinyl pressingplant still in USA. Just the biggest are pressing between 4,8 to 10 million 12 inch vinyles EVERY YEAR! And them there are 10 plants more.
So, if you can do math, you understand that the Riaa nr are not correct.


You've been called on this before, NIN. How many LPs are exported, how many are DJ LPs, etc? What remains of the LP industry mainly services the DJ market; this has been true since the ascent of CD and remains true today.
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post #118 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 10:44 PM
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The inability to abuse compression in SACD applies only to 'pure' DSD recordings/transfers. If there is an intermediate PCM step, which there often is, compression can be applied there, and it will still be there on the SACD.

See below...

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Conversely, the properties of DSD and the authoring process tend to discourage the kind of extreme compression and unpleasant-sounding hard digital clipping often found on PCM recordings. Unlike CD, which sets the 0 dB level right at the theoretical PCM signal limit, and doesn't take into account oversampling, SACD sets the 0 dB level at 6 dB below the theoretical full-scale DSD signal, and prohibits peaks above +3 dB. DSD processing is less amenable to simple clipping to meet these limits, forcing more care to be taken during mastering. The extra headroom also eases the job of DACs in playback equipment, which often suffer overload distortion when fed the full-scale PCM common on heavily-compressed CDs.[5][6] Thus, improved quality may result from simply preventing the kinds of poor mastering often found on PCM, rather than from any fundamental audible difference between DSD and PCM; PCM mastered several dB lower would also obtain the same benefit.


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post #119 of 234 Old 01-13-2008, 10:48 PM
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However, if a recording has gone through one of the above PCM stages, then
it is quite possible to compress it, though in the end the peak levels will still have to be kept below the Scarlet Book limits.

OK, you posted this after I started my previous post...

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And why not compare some vinyls with the CD version? If you have a good table, you will be surprised that in some cases, the vinyl will sound better.

The vinyl will only sound better if the mastering job on the CD was poorly done. I have made this type of comparison many times, especially when CDs first came out.
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