Vinyl May Be Final Nail in CD's Coffin - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 06:57 PM
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Even with the thousands upon thousands NIN, vinyl is right there at the bottom playing cozy with hi-rez. Don't take that as me discounting the people who enjoy the medium

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Q said...
The plastic used in CDs is tied directly to the cost of oil as well.

Yes, but CD's are lighter, easier and cheaper to manufacture, lighter to ship, and all that.

Quote:


From my Apple dictionary:

resurgent |riˈsərjənt|
adjective
increasing or reviving after a period of little activity, popularity, or occurrence

So far nothing posted has given proof either way, as far as I can tell.

That's like saying the Miami Dolphins experienced a resurgence and that Sunny von Bulow has good days. Vinyl may well be undercounted and downloaded music doesn't count the illegal downloads.

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post #182 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 07:12 PM
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Here's an article that has to do with a tour of RTI. Reading it, does it seem to you that we're likely to see resurgence that'll bring vinyl to say 10% of total sales?

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post #183 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

There are thousands after thousands of new vinyls that are not "DJ music" like you put it.

Yes, and so what? The 'thousands and thousands' you cite are STILL dwarfed by the amount of product made for DJ use....as witnessed by what's stocked in real record shops. The reissue market may well be growing, but it's still a niche market WITHIN a niche market. And why shouldn't it be? DJs are what kept LP and turntable business viable for the past few decades, not guys like you or Michael Fremer.

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But if you still want to believe this, go ahead. I don't care what you think.

You don't even seem to understand what I think about this...and it sure ain't rocket science.
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post #184 of 234 Old 01-15-2008, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Even with the thousands upon thousands NIN, vinyl is right there at the bottom playing cozy with hi-rez. Don't take that as me discounting the people who enjoy the medium

NIN seems in denial of the very concept of 'market share'.

Anyway, chatter about a vinyl 'resurgance' focused on reissues, despite being utterly miniscule in absolute terms of market share, makes for good press copy, especially as sentimental baby boomers waddle into their senior years. So we'll be seeing more stories about this, no doubt. Meanwhile, the important trend in audio will remain the abandonment of physical media.

I can assure you that the industry folks on velvetrope, for example, aren't
getting all excited about vinyl as a significant saviour of the music biz, on a day when EMI announces layoffs of a quarter of its workforce.


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Yes, but CD's are lighter, easier and cheaper to manufacture, lighter to ship, and all that.

And their information content is digital. So the actual discs can be
dispensed with...and increasingly are.
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post #185 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

And their information content is digital. So the actual discs can be
dispensed with...and increasingly are.

Let this be a lesson to you kids, of what happens when someone responds to a topic with only half the information in a conversation...

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post #186 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

...especially as sentimental baby boomers waddle into their senior years...

Holy sh**. I posted the link as, given the dialog that was taking place a while back, I thought a few might read it just for the hell of it. I should have known that it would turn into another pissing match with either side unable or unwilling to stop the endless fight. Some of you are just insulting jerks. For example Krabapple posts some really insightful thoughts, but just has to fill in the blank space around them with insulting inuendo. Like the statement of baby boomers waddling. So what are you saying, exactly? That all baby boomers are fat? Why do you feel the need to snidely inject insults into otherwise positive posts? By the way, not all baby boomer waddle. I'm on the back side of 56 and just rode a 100K Saturday and will be doing a Tri in July. Makes me wonder, if you can't even get it right on that score how are we supposed to believe what you say on anything? Most of us "vinyl lovers" have stated that we enjoy vinyl as well as CD and MP3. Funny that you never quote or comment on any of those posts. You pick the few that you know will react and use it to further your own agenda. Whatever the hell that is. Moronic behaviour.
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post #187 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Yes, but CD's are lighter, easier and cheaper to manufacture, lighter to ship, and all that.

Your point was that the cost of making vinyl records will rise with inflating oil prices. All I said is that CDs are partially made from oil as well, implying that they too will see price rises due to changes in oil prices (as will anything oil based).

Nice strawman argument there Chu. I didn't argue that vinyl would be cheaper than CDs because of it, or that CDs are not less expensive because of it, yet your response redirects the interaction as if that was what I had stated. You must be desperate to argue with someone in order to have taken my comment out of context like that...

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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

That's like saying the Miami Dolphins experienced a resurgence and that Sunny von Bulow has good days. Vinyl may well be undercounted and downloaded music doesn't count the illegal downloads.

I don't know much about football. I do know that, if vinyl is experiencing consistent growth then it is experiencing a resurgence, as per the definition of the word. Whether or not you like that idea really isn't relevant. We still don't have enough information to know whether there is a resurgence or not, as far as I can tell.

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post #188 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 07:24 AM
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Having recently become a grandfather, I can attest that I am certainly waddling. I still make it down the hall faster than she does though.

Myself, I took the article itself as nothing more than an observation that people are still interested in vinyl with some of the interest as being passionate. Like fly fishing.

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post #189 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Not even if you can't tell them apart in a blind comparison, listening for as long as you like, over your own system?

If you don't 'believe' after that, then you are a fan of 'magical thinking', and no amount of evidence will sway you.

Not to mention that 'things you cannot hear' that affect your enjoyment, by definition can't be *audible* factors. So it would be bogus to claim you like one component better than another because it 'sounds better'.

krabapple, by your definition my own hearing has no relevance. I'm a logical engineer that has never believd in snake oil crap. Why do you defend CD's so much? They are not even close to being an optimal format for archiving masters, so why would they be optimal for someone who can hear their deficiencies. You know what, the difference are not fantastic, but they are there. Now shut up on your godlike judgements. Things that are missing from the music, thus you cannot hear, detract from the enjoyment. 16bits looses info. in the convertion, so you are missing something. You are a KRABapple.
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post #190 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 08:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

Things that are missing from the music, thus you cannot hear, detract from the enjoyment. 16bits looses info. in the convertion, so you are missing something. You are a KRABapple.

Obviously, you do not understand the Sampling Theorem. CDs reproduce all of the signal up to 22KHz (well above the limits of human hearing) exactly, not approximately. There is nothing "missing from the music" during CD playback.
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post #191 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 08:52 AM
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Obviously, you do not understand the Sampling Theorem. CDs reproduce all of the signal up to 22KHz (well above the limits of human hearing) exactly, not approximately. There is nothing "missing from the music" during CD playback.

You need to go study sampling theory a bit more.
The theorems about Nyquist Frequency and resolution of harmonic content apply to infinitely long signals Duration) and pure sinusoidal waves. Music involves a lot of transient response. It can clearly be observed that signals reconstructed from 44.1 kHz sampling and 96 kHz sampling are DIFFERENT and therefore sound different. Whether it makes much difference to how you perceive it may be debatable.

Then there is the problem of bit depth.
In short, there is a lot of information missing from the CD data. Most people don't notice it.

Remember that the current CD standard was NOT developed so as to give perfect reproduction. It was develoed at a time when sttorage space and processing power were at a premuium. So it was designed to be a medium that was the minimum information such that most people wouldn't immediately notice a difference in quality to vinyl (not to mention REALITY). Of course audiphiles always have noticed the slight imperfections.
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post #192 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 09:31 AM
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There is also Gibbs phenomenon...

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post #193 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 10:31 AM
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Amber, music is nothing more than the superposition of various sinusoidal waves and the Nyquist Theorem is entirely applicable to it. As to "signals reconstructed from 44.1 kHz sampling and 96 kHz sampling are DIFFERENT and therefore sound different", that's rather speculative considering a recent study done by Meyer & Moran published in 2007 in JAES. Under blind conditions, people were unable to differentiate SACD and after it had been transcoded to CD. I have a copy of the article if you want. Whatever information is missing from CD, it most assuredly is also missing from vinyl and given that vinyl wears, more and more becomes missing over time. Rather than blame CD, the blame seems better directed towards those that do the mastering.

What does the Gibbs phenomenon have to do with this?

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post #194 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Rather than blame CD, the blame seems better directed towards though that do the mastering.

Definitely. Well mastered CDs sound flawless. Conversely, if there are any issues with the sound of a CD, it is always the mastering. The format is inherently perfect (in contrast to vinyl.)
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post #195 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Here's an article that has to do with a tour of RTI. Reading it, does it seem to you that we're likely to see resurgence that'll bring vinyl to say 10% of total sales?


How much do you see here? Not much. All I have said is that the 900 000 records nr that riaa use, it wrong.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #196 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Yes, and so what? The 'thousands and thousands' you cite are STILL dwarfed by the amount of product made for DJ use....as witnessed by what's stocked in real record shops. The reissue market may well be growing, but it's still a niche market WITHIN a niche market. And why shouldn't it be? DJs are what kept LP and turntable business viable for the past few decades, not guys like you or Michael Fremer.


You clearly don't see this neutral. But I'm not stopping you to play the hypercompressed CDs that you love so much.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #197 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Definitely. Well mastered CDs sound flawless. Conversely, if there are any issues with the sound of a CD, it is always the mastering. The format is inherently perfect (in contrast to vinyl.)


Not only the mastering, it can be the source too.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #198 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What does the Gibbs phenomenon have to do with this?

Read up on it... Or, if you don't understand it, then look at the pictures on the link. That should at least give you a sense of the audible modal ringing caused by reconstruction filters at the points of highly transient responses.

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post #199 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Having recently become a grandfather, I can attest that I am certainly waddling. I still make it down the hall faster than she does though.

Myself, I took the article itself as nothing more than an observation that people are still interested in vinyl with some of the interest as being passionate. Like fly fishing.

IMO points can be made based on either the science, or opinions of the poster without labels. Baby boomers are fat. Salespeople are not to be trusted. I could go on. What does any of this have to do with the perceived resurgance of vinyl? Nothing. I don't assume that these types of statements are made without thought. There is certainly thought behind them. Krabapple meant to insult baby boomers just as an earlier post was meant to insult Schitcker for no reason other than he is a dealer. Hey, I don't much care for Schitcker's style either but he shouldn't be attacked or demeaned simply because he is a dealer. Attack his arguments. Attack Nin's arguments if you care to, but one shouldn't attack Nin because of his age.
  • Vinyl can sound great, in part due to the mastering of the material
  • CD can sound great and has greater potential than vinyl but often does not due to mastering
  • Vinyl is selling more than it used to a few years ago
  • Nobody said that vinyl will ever become a dominant player again so there is nothing to defend on this score
  • Digital download is growing and should become the main distribution model
  • For our forseeable future, all three will be around and options are good not bad
  • Some of us like CD, some vinyl, some MP3, some all three

Did I miss anything? Does anybody really argue with any of these points?
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post #200 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

Did I miss anything?

Some people like 2girls1cup dot com...

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post #201 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:43 AM
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Well, why don't you explain it to me as well as the conditions under which the ringing is audible Q?

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post #202 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:44 AM
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I find nothing to disagree with your post Tom.

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post #203 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Well, why don't you explain it to me as well as the conditions under which the ringing is audible Q?

Nah. You do the work. I'm not supporting your laziness. It isn't anything new or unknown.

If you like, you can start in those JJ slides posted awhile back. He mentions the audibility of reconstruction filter ringing at CD levels (44.1KHz/16bit) in a few of the PPT presentations.

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post #204 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 12:33 PM
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Just like I figured. You don't know how to explain it. Just not enough EE courses, but then that's to be expected from your prior concern over inductance and coiling cables

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post #205 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Just like I figured. You don't know how to explain it. Just not enough EE courses, but then that's to be expected from your prior concern over inductance and coiling cables

Suit yourself... Though, you must know less than I do if you are relating electrical inductance with this topic.

BTW, it wasn't that I didn't know what inductance was; I studied that in high school physics class. It was that I wasn't sure how effective my balanced cable shielding would be against it compared to the signal strength traveling through the balanced cable. It isn't that I have a few overlaps of cable. I have around 20' wound into a 1' diameter oval. Likewise, my Electrical Circuits texbook doesn't have any relevant information on audio cables, their electrical qualities, or the general signal levels they carry, so I thought I would save myself time and ask around. It didn't seem like anyone really knew for certain anyway, unfortunately. I never did get a definitive answer.

I'm not afraid to ask for help when I'm not sure of something.

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post #206 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

You clearly don't see this neutral. But I'm not stopping you to play the hypercompressed CDs that you love so much.

Interesting. What alternate universe are you accessing, where I'm expressing 'so much' love for 'hypercompressed CDs'? Because surely it's not this one.
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post #207 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

Holy sh**. I posted the link as, given the dialog that was taking place a while back, I thought a few might read it just for the hell of it. I should have known that it would turn into another pissing match with either side unable or unwilling to stop the endless fight. Some of you are just insulting jerks. For example Krabapple posts some really insightful thoughts, but just has to fill in the blank space around them with insulting inuendo. Like the statement of baby boomers waddling. So what are you saying, exactly? That all baby boomers are fat?


LOL.

Calm down, sparky. I'm a baby boomer myself. We're allowed to make fun of our generation -- it's probably healthy, even, given our reputation for self-absorption.


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Why do you feel the need to snidely inject insults into otherwise positive posts? By the way, not all baby boomer waddle. I'm on the back side of 56 and just rode a 100K Saturday and will be doing a Tri in July. Makes me wonder, if you can't even get it right on that score how are we supposed to believe what you say on anything? Most of us "vinyl lovers" have stated that we enjoy vinyl as well as CD and MP3. Funny that you never quote or comment on any of those posts. You pick the few that you know will react and use it to further your own agenda. Whatever the hell that is. Moronic behaviour.

It sounds like your heart is in healthy shape, otherwise I'd fear you're about to have an infarction. I still suggest you keep in mind that when someone makes a quip about a population, it doesn't mean it applies to every blessed individual. Reality is probabilistic.
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post #208 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

krabapple, by your definition my own hearing has no relevance.

Nope. Stop right there. What's not particularly relevant as regards REPORTS OF SOUND QUALITY, is your 'hearing' when it's really not just your hearing ; it's being contaminated with other senses. If you were to report what you heard during a bias controlled session, that would be quite relevant.


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I'm a logical engineer that has never believd in snake oil crap. Why do you defend CD's so much?

Pardon, why do you erect straw men?

CD is a technically superior format to LP, in terms of the how accurate it CAN be. Even NIN and I agree on that. We also agree that CAN does not necessarily mean IS; the technical superiority may also be mitigated by modern mastering practices, such as 'hypercompression'.

I have said this in a number of ways a number of times on a number of threads. So, why do you suggest otherwise?


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They are not even close to being an optimal format for archiving masters, so why would they be optimal for someone who can hear their deficiencies.

What deteremines the optimal format for archiving masters? Is it purely sound quality? I think not.


Quote:


You know what, the difference are not fantastic, but they are there. Now shut up on your godlike judgements. Things that are missing from the music, thus you cannot hear, detract from the enjoyment.

If you mean, substractions that ARE audible, can detract from enjoyment, I agree. But of course, it's not necessarily true. When someone in the mastering suite cuts a few dB of upper midrange, they're trying to increase enjoyment. Do you find this impossible?


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16bits looses info. in the convertion, so you are missing something. You are a KRABapple.

16 bits doesn't loose any audible info, unless the recording had an audible dynamic range in excess of 16 bits, or unless you perform some serious digital processing and introduce audible rounding errors.
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post #209 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber O'Doul View Post

You need to go study sampling theory a bit more.
The theorems about Nyquist Frequency and resolution of harmonic content apply to infinitely long signals Duration) and pure sinusoidal waves. Music involves a lot of transient response. It can clearly be observed that signals reconstructed from 44.1 kHz sampling and 96 kHz sampling are DIFFERENT and therefore sound different.

Nonsense. Observable difference in signals does NOT necessarily translate to audible difference. And the distinction between 'pure sinusoidal waves' and music is more nonsense. Really, sir or ma'am, read Pohlmann or Aldrich or Dan Lavry's
papers on sampling theory, you're talking nonsense. One NEVER sees this sort of ridiculous argment in, say, the JAES.


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Then there is the problem of bit depth.
In short, there is a lot of information missing from the CD data. Most people don't notice it.

How many have noticed it in blind comparisons?

The requirements for bit depth are not rocket science in this day and age.
The situations requiring >16bits of resolution are well known. Home playback is almost never one of them.
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post #210 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 01:28 PM
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No one knows as much as you do Q! So, under what conditions is the 'ringing' audible? Is it also audible in your amps and speakers? Those also have ringing on square waves, right?

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