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post #211 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

  • Vinyl can sound great, in part due to the mastering of the material
  • CD can sound great and has greater potential than vinyl but often does not due to mastering
  • Vinyl is selling more than it used to a few years ago
  • Nobody said that vinyl will ever become a dominant player again so there is nothing to defend on this score
  • Digital download is growing and should become the main distribution model
  • For our forseeable future, all three will be around and options are good not bad
  • Some of us like CD, some vinyl, some MP3, some all three

I have , in various places, said or agreed with all of those things.

So what's your problem, comrade? It looks like you've made a few biased assumptions about me yourself.
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post #212 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 01:55 PM
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1. Vinyl can sound great, in part due to the mastering of the material
2. CD can sound great and has greater potential than vinyl but often does not due to mastering
3. Vinyl is selling more than it used to a few years ago
4. Nobody said that vinyl will ever become a dominant player again so there is nothing to defend on this score
5. Digital download is growing and should become the main distribution model
6. For our forseeable future, all three will be around and options are good not bad
7. Some of us like CD, some vinyl, some MP3, some all three

Did I miss anything? Does anybody really argue with any of these points?

I agree wholeheartedly with everything above, except #3. This thread has passed the 200 posts mark, and no one has pointed to any evidence that the sale of vinyl (and in particular, vinyl LPs) has risen in recent years. I suspect it hasn't, for reasons I've already stated, but for the purposes of (avoiding an) argument, I'll settle for "it's an open question, and people claiming it's growing are engaging in wishful thinking."

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post #213 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Definitely. Well mastered CDs sound flawless. Conversely, if there are any issues with the sound of a CD, it is always the mastering. The format is inherently perfect (in contrast to vinyl.)

There is no such thing as perfection in recorded music. Recorded music will never sound as good as the live, real thing. But cd's cold harsh sound is even worse.
You really need to listen to a few 180 & 200 gram vinyl, on a GOOD system.
Of coarse, if you did hear how much better it is compared to cd you would never admit it.
Whereas, starting from the first time I heard a cd, I KNEW it left something to be desired. And as much as I like DVD-A and SACD I wouldn't say I like them better than good vinyl.

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post #214 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

There is no such thing as perfection in recorded music. Recorded music will never sound as good as the live, real thing. But cd's cold harsh sound is even worse.

CD's 'cold harsh, sound' is myth. 16bit/44.1 kHz sound is not inherently 'cold' or 'harsh', as the existence of EVEN ONE 'warm, smooth' CD demonstrates. So you're basically saying there is no such CD.

If a CD sounds 'cold and harsh', then there is something about the recording, mastering, or the playback conditions, that is making it so. Not the format itself.

Quote:


You really need to listen to a few 180 & 200 gram vinyl, on a GOOD system.
Of coarse, if you did hear how much better it is compared to cd you would never admit it.
Whereas, starting from the first time I heard a cd, I KNEW it left something to be desired. And as much as I like DVD-A and SACD I wouldn't say I like them better than good vinyl.



See, vinylphiles...who's being dogmatic and tendentious now? Who's applying bad logic?
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post #215 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 02:48 PM
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[quote=krabapple;12837473]CD's 'cold harsh, sound' is myth. 16bit/44.1 kHz sound is not inherently 'cold' or 'harsh', as the existence of EVEN ONE 'warm, smooth' CD demonstrates. So you're basically saying there is no such CD.

If a CD sounds 'cold and harsh', then there is something about the recording, mastering, or the playback conditions, that is making it so. Not the format itself.
QUOTE]
Put it this way, I've HEARD more cold, harsh cds than good ones, so that leaves out the playback system. So if I hear a cd that sounds cold and harsh, its not a myth, its reality.
Have I HEARD bad LPs, yes, but the majority of the LPs I have or have heard would be considered good and a small minority of them bad. Not counting old ones that were just plain abused, never taken care of.

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post #216 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by gregmp View Post

krabapple, by your definition my own hearing has no relevance.* I'm a logical engineer that has never believd in snake oil crap.* Why do you defend CD's so much?* They are not even close to being an optimal format for archiving masters, so why would they be optimal for someone who can hear their deficiencies.* You know what, the difference are not fantastic, but they are there.* Now shut up on your godlike judgements.* Things that are missing from the music, thus you cannot hear, detract from the enjoyment.* 16bits looses info. in the convertion, so you are missing something.* You are a KRABapple.

What do you expect from an "audiophile" who is probably tone deaf?*
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Obviously, you do not understand the Sampling Theorem. CDs reproduce all of the signal up to 22KHz (well above the limits of human hearing) exactly, not approximately. There is nothing "missing from the music" during CD playback.

That's nonsense, A CD Does not exactly reproduce the signal up to 22Hz.
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Definitely. Well mastered CDs sound flawless. Conversely, if there are any issues with the sound of a CD, it is always the mastering. The format is inherently perfect (in contrast to vinyl.)

Well mastered CD's do not sound flawless if the performer isn't flawless unless you are tone deaf. * Which I suspect you are.
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You clearly don't see this neutral. But I'm not stopping you to play the hypercompressed CDs that you love so much.

That listener is probably tone deaf.
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Just like I figured. You don't know how to explain it. Just not enough EE courses, but then that's to be expected from your prior concern over inductance and coiling cables

My cables coil all the time!
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

No one knows as much as you do Q! So, under what conditions is the 'ringing' audible? Is it also audible in your amps and speakers? Those also have ringing on square waves, right?

The ringing is NEVER Audible. [quote=4DHD;12837647]
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

CD's 'cold harsh, sound' is myth. 16bit/44.1 kHz sound is not inherently 'cold' or 'harsh', as the existence of EVEN ONE 'warm, smooth' CD demonstrates.* So you're basically saying there is no such CD.* If a CD sounds 'cold and harsh', then there is something about the recording, mastering, or the playback conditions, that is making it so.* Not the format itself. QUOTE]Put it this way, I've HEARD more cold, harsh cds than good ones, so that leaves out the playback system. So if I hear a cd that sounds cold and harsh, its not a myth, its reality.Have I HEARD bad LPs, yes, but the majority of the LPs I have or have heard would be considered good and a small minority of them bad. Not counting old ones that were just plain abused, never taken care of.

If the CD sounds Harsh then It's the recording engineer's fault.

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post #217 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

No one knows as much as you do Q!

Well, at least you admit it.

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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

So, under what conditions is the 'ringing' audible?

When there are impulse spikes in the music, when you are in a decent acoustic environment (or when you use good headphones and have little noise in your environment) and when you are listening on equipment that doesn't have distortion elements high enough to conceal it. The signal is smeared over time because a digital filter can not accommodate an infinitely steep slope, such as the kind made by a transient noise. A square wave is just an easier way of seeing the effect under controlled conditions.

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post #218 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs View Post

The ringing is NEVER Audible.

There is no audible "ringing sound," but the effects of the ringing are audible.

Krabbie and Chuey's buddy JJ even puts it down in his slides, though he has been known to say one thing but mean the exact opposite in the past (due to his awful writing skills, I guess).

I believe this person might be referring to something JJ said as well on another forum (it is very similar to the type of information he had in his slides...):

Quote:


On the ProAud list, JJ argues (and he backs this up with fairly detailed models) that the ear is sufficiently non-linear to make that difference when the corner frequency is *just* beyond the edge of audibility. The same data, however, does not corroborate audibility of pre-ringing when the corner frequency is moved up a notch (as in 48kHz sampling). If the corner frequency is sufficiently high, a lowpass filter's amplitude response no longer audibly affects the signal.

In his PPT slides JJ Johnston is quite explicit that it can be audible.

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post #219 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Put it this way, I've HEARD more cold, harsh cds than good ones, so that leaves out the playback system. So if I hear a cd that sounds cold and harsh, its not a myth, its reality.

But this implies you have heard at least one that ISN'T cold and harsh, thus it cannot be that 16/44.1 inherently and inevitably produces 'cold, harsh' sound, as your previous post asserted.

Put it this way: your original claim isn't true. And when you hear a CD that's 'cold and harsh', it isn't necessarily because it's a CD.
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post #220 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs View Post

What do you expect from an "audiophile" who is probably tone deaf?

Yours is the sort of post I expect from someone who's kind of dumb, rather than deaf.


Quote:
That's nonsense, A CD Does not exactly reproduce the signal up to 22Hz.

It's good that 20kHz suffices, then.

Quote:
Well mastered CD's do not sound flawless if the performer isn't flawless unless you are tone deaf. Which I suspect you are.

See above re: dumb.

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That listener is probably tone deaf.

See above re: see above: :

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My cables coil all the time!
The ringing is NEVER Audible.

But the dumbbell rings loud and clear.

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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

If the CD sounds Harsh then It's the recording engineer's fault.

Could be! (I guess sometimes a dumbbell is like a broken clock.)
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post #221 of 234 Old 01-16-2008, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

But this implies you have heard at least one that ISN'T cold and harsh, thus it cannot be that 16/44.1 inherently and inevitably produces 'cold, harsh' sound, as your previous post asserted.* Put it this way: your original claim isn't true. And when you hear a CD that's 'cold and harsh', it isn't necessarily because it's a CD.

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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Yours is the sort of post I expect from someone who's kind of dumb, rather than deaf. It's good that 20kHz suffices, then. See above re: dumb.* See above re: see above: :But the dumbbell rings loud and clear.* Could be!* (I guess sometimes a dumbbell is like a broken clock.)

And your any smarter?

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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

So, under what conditions is the 'ringing' audible?

Easy question! It isn't audible at all, ever.
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

But cd's cold harsh sound is even worse.

"CDs cold harsh sound" is in your mind only. You are not describing anything that actually exists.
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

CD's 'cold harsh, sound' is myth. 16bit/44.1 kHz sound is not inherently 'cold' or 'harsh', as the existence of EVEN ONE 'warm, smooth' CD demonstrates. So you're basically saying there is no such CD.

If a CD sounds 'cold and harsh', then there is something about the recording, mastering, or the playback conditions, that is making it so. Not the format itself.

Well put and entirely correct.
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post #225 of 234 Old 01-17-2008, 05:59 AM
 
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That's nonsense, A CD Does not exactly reproduce the signal up to 22Hz.

Yes it does, and that is not an opinion. It has been rigorously proven.
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post #226 of 234 Old 01-17-2008, 06:08 AM
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Easy question! It isn't audible at all, ever.

That is incorrect. Stick to subjects you know... Such as remedial
math.

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post #227 of 234 Old 01-17-2008, 06:54 AM
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Well, at least you admit it.



When there are impulse spikes in the music, when you are in a decent acoustic environment (or when you use good headphones and have little noise in your environment) and when you are listening on equipment that doesn't have distortion elements high enough to conceal it. The signal is smeared over time because a digital filter can not accommodate an infinitely steep slope, such as the kind made by a transient noise. A square wave is just an easier way of seeing the effect under controlled conditions.

I'm not so sure the phenomenon you're describing - square waves with overshoot and evidence of ringing - is properly called the Gibbs effect. Rather it's the consequence of trying to represent a construct that is the summation of an infinite series by a system that is inherently band limited. This same ringing will be observed by any system that is so band limited such as an amplifier that begins to roll off past say 20K or 30K, tape or for that matter vinyl. Your speakers in fact, since they're not 1st order, will also exhibit a square wave whose shape is more frightening in appearance than any of your electronics. Yet, you're rather quick to attribute whatever it is that you're hearing to a ringing phenomenon to the CDP.

There are no infinitely steep slopes in real world music and to my mind what you bring up regarding ripples/ringing, both pre and post waveform, is a phenomenon largely relegated to older CDP's, the audibility of which being dependent upon the type of filter being used. The problems with some older analog filters were not unknown and designing well behaved ones where issues such as audible phase errors or pre-echo were well controlled cost money. This was though not limited to mass market players. So what we had was nothing more than bad band limiting in some cases. Some.

So what do we have today? Oversampling where the filtering is done in the digital domain that greatly mitigates these artifacts while also allowing for overall reduced costs since the analog filter need not be designed so carefully.

Audibility of such a phenomenon (ringing), as I'm sure a person such as yourself knows, depends upon its duration, magnitude, and any masking effects from your program material. It's certainly far easier using test tones to take a stab at hearing it rather than musical sources, but I challenge you to produce modern day examples of players so poorly designed that they exhibit long drawn out ringing of sufficient amplitude as to be heard. Some supporting graphs and measurements would be nice.

As has been mentioned by myself, JJ, krabapple, and others, under careful conditions, people are unable to reliably distinguish between vinyl and a digitized construct of vinyl. This has been for some time. In light of that, given that vinyl doesn't have any oddball analog filters, why can't people distinguish between the two? I just don't find anything to support your claim that the phenomenon you describe is related to what you're hearing. It just seems rather 'golden'.

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post #228 of 234 Old 01-17-2008, 07:55 AM
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I'm not so sure the phenomenon you're describing - square waves with overshoot and evidence of ringing - is properly called the Gibbs effect. Rather it's the consequence of trying to represent a construct that is the summation of an infinite series by a system that is inherently band limited. This same ringing will be observed by any system that is so band limited such as an amplifier that begins to roll off past say 20K or 30K, tape or for that matter vinyl. Your speakers in fact, since they're not 1st order, will also exhibit a square wave whose shape is more frightening in appearance than any of your electronics. Yet, you're rather quick to attribute whatever it is that you're hearing to a ringing phenomenon to the CDP.

There are no infinitely steep slopes in real world music and to my mind what you bring up regarding ripples/ringing, both pre and post waveform, is a phenomenon largely relegated to older CDP's, the audibility of which being dependent upon the type of filter being used. The problems with some older analog filters were not unknown and designing well behaved ones where issues such as audible phase errors or pre-echo were well controlled cost money. This was though not limited to mass market players. So what we had was nothing more than bad band limiting in some cases. Some.

So what do we have today? Oversampling where the filtering is done in the digital domain that greatly mitigates these artifacts while also allowing for overall reduced costs since the analog filter need not be designed so carefully.

Audibility of such a phenomenon (ringing), as I'm sure a person such as yourself knows, depends upon its duration, magnitude, and any masking effects from your program material. It's certainly far easier using test tones to take a stab at hearing it rather than musical sources, but I challenge you to produce modern day examples of players so poorly designed that they exhibit long drawn out ringing of sufficient amplitude as to be heard. Some supporting graphs and measurements would be nice.

As has been mentioned by myself, JJ, krabapple, and others, under careful conditions, people are unable to reliably distinguish between vinyl and a digitized construct of vinyl. This has been for some time. In light of that, given that vinyl doesn't have any oddball analog filters, why can't people distinguish between the two? I just don't find anything to support your claim that the phenomenon you describe is related to what you're hearing. It just seems rather 'golden'.

I knew this was just another example of Chuey wanting to argue with someone... I'll be brief because I'm typing on an iPhone. You could have saved us all some time by responding right away instead of acting like an anal retentive jackass and baiting me (which I correctly guessed was your intention to begin with-yes Chuey, you are that predictable.)

Nothing I said was incorrect, check the Wiki Gibbs link. The effects of the ringing from CD can be audible, perhaps not always, but they can be with some sharp transients in the right musical context. Your buddy JJ did the research on this, so I would ask him and perhaps read those slides Krab pointed out in the last vinyl thread. The proof is in his research and he is quite clear that it can be eliminated completely by taking the sampling rate higher. Someone who isn't trained to hear it might never notice it, but that doesn't stop it from existing.

I'm done responding on this particular sidetrack, so if you need more personal attention Chuey, I suggest you consider paying for it.

Oh, if anyone has links to those PPT slides I'd appreciate a link.

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That is incorrect. Stick to subjects you know... Such as remedial
math.

You are wrong as usual. If it were audible, I would hear it. In spite of claims to the contrary by big-ego audiphiles, my hearing is as good as anyone's out there.
Oh, and if you need help with your remedial math homework, let me know.
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post #230 of 234 Old 01-17-2008, 08:28 AM
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Make sure he knows his gazintas too, PULLIAM

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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

You are wrong as usual. If it were audible, I would hear it. In spite of claims to the contrary by big-ego audiphiles, my hearing is as good as anyone's out there.
Oh, and if you need help with your remedial math homework, let me know.

Considering you equipment, your listening environment, and your lack of training, you likely will never hear it. You wouldn't even know what to listen for...

Suit yourself though, I'm done arguing about it. I've got a lot of math work to do and preparations to make towards my advanced degree.

If I do need math help, I will ask! So far I'm still a 4.0 student even after a break in my studies...

I don't think they have remedial math at Columbia University.

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post #232 of 234 Old 01-17-2008, 08:33 AM
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"CDs cold harsh sound" is in your mind only. You are not describing anything that actually exists.

Sez you, worth less than 2 cents.
And the complex kind of sound that vinyl provides cds can't match. As I've compared the exact same recording on vinyl and cd.
And whether any of you cd lovers want to admit it or not there is a resurgence in LP sales. And its not just dj vinyl. I'm quite sure the 180 & 200 gram LPs aren't meant for DJs. And from what I've seen, there are quite a few more mid-priced and up TT brands than years ago.

If LP sales weren't increasing companies wouldn't keep making TT, much less expensive ones. No company is going to spend capital on products that are just going to collect dust on their warehouse shelves, be it the TT or the LP.
While at the same time, cd sales are falling, because of how many people download their music.
The day may not be far off when cd sales aren't anymore than a blip, as LPs are now.

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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I knew this was just another example of Chuey wanting to argue with someone... I'll be brief because I'm typing on an iPhone. You could have saved us all some time by responding right away instead of acting like an anal retentive jackass and baiting me (which I correctly guessed was your intention to begin with-yes Chuey, you are that predictable.)

Nothing I said was incorrect, check the Wiki Gibbs link. The effects of the ringing from CD can be audible, perhaps not always, but they can be with some sharp transients in the right musical context. Your buddy JJ did the research on this, so I would ask him and perhaps read those slides Krab pointed out in the last vinyl thread. The proof is in his research and he is quite clear that it can be eliminated completely by taking the sampling rate higher. Someone who isn't trained to hear it might never notice it, but that doesn't stop it from existing.

I'm done responding on this particular sidetrack, so if you need more personal attention Chuey, I suggest you consider paying for it.

Oh, if anyone has links to those PPT slides I'd appreciate a link.

More paranormal pronouncements but one of the supreme Wikipedia quoters out there who can't 'splain it in his own words. You mention the slides but can't find them and considering you didn't understand them to begin with, one might think you didn't understand much of what you read. PM JJ and have him 'splain it to you. After you verify that he's really who he is that is.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #234 of 234 Old 01-17-2008, 08:45 AM
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