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post #91 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 03:45 AM
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A rather exclusionary policy on your part smitty, don't you think? Only the right kind of people should post?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #92 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 05:35 AM
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Ever done an ABX comparison of a good mp3 to its source? You might be shocked at the result.

I have.
That's why I almost never listen to MP3 except when jogging or driving in my pickup truck !

ATRAC (minidisc compression format)....that is really hard to tell. Sometimes it is just "different"; but not obviously lower quality like MP3.

I used to do quite a bit of my own recording of acoustic instruments. I had invested in calibrated matched-pair microphones, absurdly expensive preamps, etc. 24 bit, 96 kHz DAW, etc...

But eventually, downmixing to MP3 is convenient for a lot of reasons. So I tried every software MP3 encoder I could find; experimented with sample rates, and every other thing I could think of. hey always came out with clearly audible "defects" compared to the source. Would I hear it if I hadn't also heard the source ? Maybe not. But it was there.
ATRAC, by contrast, is completely painless and sounds good. But it is hard to find minidsic stuff now. People want "cheap and good enough". They want iPods, not SACD !
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post #93 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 05:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

The more I respond to you, the more you go down another fork in the road and favor us with other viewpoints and opinions that will help others evaluate the reasonableness of the opinions and judgments you keep offering on the specific issues relevant to this site. With your latest comment, I think I've accomplished enough of this for today.

Regarding your reply to:

And in a nation where a majority of adults do not believe of evolution, it's possible to find several tens of thousands of people willing to believe any pseudoscientific rot you want to throw at them


I happen to think the original post is spot on and can't see what there is about it that offends you. Its this very premise that allows those exotic cable companies to stay in business and flourish. Except I wouldn't say tens of thousands, I'd say hundreds of millions.
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post #94 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Kind of like . . . , smitty?

Chu, I'd appreciate it if you would edit it.
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post #95 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

Regarding your reply to:

And in a nation where a majority of adults do not believe of evolution, it's possible to find several tens of thousands of people willing to believe any pseudoscientific rot you want to throw at them


I happen to think the original post is spot on and can't see what there is about it that offends you. Its this very premise that allows those exotic cable companies to stay in business and flourish. Except I wouldn't say tens of thousands, I'd say hundreds of millions.

I'm not here to debate evolution, or cables for that matter. But the way I read the post at issue and the comment about people who have some issue with "evolution," it is insulting by implication the beliefs of many who hold a certain point of view regarding evolution. Whatever your position is on that issue, reasonably intelligent people have different beliefs on that issue, and I don't think the comment is necessary or appropriate, and I think it reflects something about the poster which I won't explore further, as this thread is really starting to get pretty far into the realm of offensive. But perhaps I misread the original post?

In any event, I don't understand why certain quarters feel it necessary in the context of these discussions to regularly insult the human race or large groups of people. There are, as a matter of routine, repeated references in these types of threads to "fools," or disparaging references to people who "believe in UFO's," people who believe in "evolution" or certain religious beliefs, etc. The "objectivists" have many good arguments; why it is necessary to constantly flavor every argument with negativity and repeated arrogant judgments about the supposed inferiority of others?
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post #96 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

Yes, and from what I understand about that site, it appears like a number of contributors to this forum belong on that forum instead of this one -- and we would all be better off.

Or maybe a different 'number of contributors' belong on www.audioasylum.com, instead of AVSForum ("where the S is for SCIENCE":

Btw, if I were you'd I'd stay out of www.audioholics.com too. Too many damnable fact-lovers there.
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post #97 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Amber O'Doul View Post

I have.

Details? (codecs, settings, sources, ABX scores?)

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ATRAC (minidisc compression format)....that is really hard to tell. Sometimes it is just "different"; but not obviously lower quality like MP3.

If MP3 is 'obviously lower quality', I presume you scored something over 16/20 on an ABX test, using the best quality mp3 encoding available (e.g., one of the more recent LAME releases)
at a high variable or constant bitrate?
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post #98 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

Chu, I think that's uncalled for and offensive. I'd appreciate it if you would delete it or edit it.

Let's recap. You've pooh-poohed some of the audio skeptics here, and asserted that audio publications hold a higher anti-BS standard than internet audio forums (by implication denigrating AVSForum). When confronted with an example of an audio forum with clearly higher anti-BS standard than the audio press, you had no counterargument; instead you suggested that 'a number of contributors' here, should post there.

That was lame. I suggest you delete it. At the very least, you seem confused. You admire the audio press for its supposed ant-BS standards, yet you post here, a place you feel contains too much BS, and further, you chide people who are trying to cut through the BS here.
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post #99 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 08:37 AM
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In the interests of forum comity, I apologize to anyone who felt that my comment on evolution demeaned their religious beliefs.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #100 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

I'm not here to debate evolution, or cables for that matter. But the way I read the post at issue and the comment about people who have some issue with "evolution," it is insulting by implication the beliefs of many who hold a certain point of view regarding evolution. Whatever your position is on that issue, reasonably intelligent people have different beliefs on that issue,

It's funny how many 'reasonably intelligent' people go so far off the rails when it comes to the issue of human origins. It's funny that we don't see calls for such 'diversity' of beliefs on, say, gravitation.

(a)Evolution, like gravitation, like erosion, is a fact. It is a natural phenomenon connecting all living and extinct organisms, including humans . If you have a 'different belief' about that, you're simply wrong. Humans were not created 'de novo' . (b) There is zero credible scientific evidence that evolution represents 'intelligent design'...a phrase which is demonstrably just a sneaky way of re-branding what used to be called 'scientific creationism', aka 'creationism'. Cf. testimony in the Kitzmiller trial, and the Discovery Institute's Wedge Strategy.

Millions of supposedly 'reasonably intelligent ' Americans disbelieve (a) and/or (b), including, to our vast discredit, several presidential candidates. They are ignorant of, or in denial of, the facts.
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post #101 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 08:41 AM
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Yes, and from what I understand about that site, it appears like a number of contributors to this forum belong on that forum instead of this one -- and we would all be better off.

I can't think of any comment less appropriate to a forum like this one than the suggestion that people holding certain ideas don't belong here.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #102 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

In the interests of forum comity, I apologize to anyone who felt that my comment on evolution demeaned their religious beliefs.

Your comment was spot on and needs no apology. If someone's 'religious beliefs'
prevent them from accepting the existence of gravitation, or encouraged them to believe in astrology, would you apologize for saying they're likely to fall for audio pseudoscience and BS?
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post #103 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

Yes, and from what I understand about that site, it appears like a number of contributors to this forum belong on that forum instead of this one -- and we would all be better off.

Funny how you post in absolutes. For example, who is "we all?" Have you somehow been endowed by the mods to speak for all the SVS members? If "you" feel that way, great, state it. But to suggest that you, somehow, speak for "all" is inaccurate. I, for one, really enjoy reading posts by the people I disagree with. I get entertainment out of this site, as well as knowledge. And I believe that's why its here. For both reasons. Once you start limiting what people can say, it gets very boring, very quickly. A prime example are the several threads locked recently. Were some of the posts offbase? IMO, yes. Did several people go overboard? IMO, yes. But once the mod shut them down, and banned a few people, it was amazing how intimidated most got, and how watered down and boring the posts quickly became.

And reagarding your comments about why do I have to comment on the ignorance of people when making a point. Simple. Its exactly that ignorance that the snake oil cable salespeople prey on. No, make that count on. Its that ignorance that speaker manufacturers rely on (speaker break in) to get people to keep their speakers past the warranty period. And there are dozens of examples. None of these opinions can be explained without digging into the motivations of and ingnorance of, quite a few people. Hell, Bose has made a fortune off of this human attribute.

Perhaps you should ease off a bit, stand down off your soapbox, and take what works for you from this site, ingore what doesn't, and laugh at the rest. Other than that, simply report the post to the mods and let them make the decision. After all, its their site and they can speak for themselves.
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post #104 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

(a)Evolution, like gravitation, like erosion, is a fact. It is a natural phenomenon connecting all living and extinct organisms, including humans . If you have a 'different belief' about that, you're simply wrong. Humans were not created 'de novo' . (b) There is zero credible scientific evidence that evolution represents 'intelligent design'...a phrase which is demonstrably just a sneaky way of re-branding what used to be called 'scientific creationism', aka 'creationism'. Cf. testimony in the Kitzmiller trial, and the Discovery Institute's Wedge Strategy.

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I'm not here to debate evolution . . . .

Did I stutter?

Let me get us back on track. There is a direct correlation between the price of a CD player and sound quality and everyone can hear it. Discuss.
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post #105 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 09:13 AM
 
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...There is a direct correlation between the price of a CD player and sound quality and everyone can hear it. Discuss.

Define, "everyone"
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post #106 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 09:16 AM
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There is a direct correlation between the price of a CD player and sound quality and everyone can hear it. Discuss.

I agree. It doesn't matter what you put inside the CD player. If you charge more for it, it will sound better.

Works for Goldmund!

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #107 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

I can't think of any comment less appropriate to a forum like this one than the suggestion that people holding certain ideas don't belong here.

What I was trying to suggest was that there seem to be forums on the internet dedicated to the idea that a good deal of high fidelity audio is snake oil, and it appears that these forums are designed for people to discuss measurements, etc. and the "objective" aspects of audio at length.

On the other hand, IMO, this site, with the exception of this forum perhaps, has a different feel. It's hard to articulate it exactly, but if you read the other forums on this site, it kind of has the feel of more of a true hobbyist's site, than a scientific forum (and I don't think the word "Science" in the forum has any relevance). On other forums on this site, people have fun discussing what equipment they have, why certain equipment sounds better or provides a better picture than their old equipment, how to help people get the most out of their equipment, what new products are being developed and what improvements they might offer, etc.

On the other hand, this forum is different and somewhat unique on this site. And I think the repeated posts on this forum that contain negativity about the hobby and the people in it, and repeated posts that CDP's all sound the same, audio reviewers are crackpots, audio salespeople are charlatans or morons, and anybody who believes otherwise is just like an idiot that believes in UFO's or evolution, and so on and so forth, is not beneficial to this site.

In my personal opinion, people who wish to advance an agenda of the sort discussed should appropriately do it on an "objectivists" site. I'm sure some of you don't agree with this. That's understandable. You're here for a reason -- to set forth your agenda.

In any event, I don't own the site, so my personal opinion probably doesn't matter a hill of beans to several of you for that matter. But I know I'm not alone in this regard.
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post #108 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 10:09 AM
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Pointing out that CDP's, in a practical sense, vary signficantly in their output voltages, is not all that well understood or known by the end-user and frequently dismissed by reviewers. Pointing out that an individual has it within his means to both measure and correct for that inexpensively (assuming than at least one of the CDP's is adjustable) does nothing more than empower the consumer. If they then go so far as to to implement a blind evaluation using their own equipment, in their own room, using the program material of their choice, if they do enough trials, they can come to a quasi-scientific assessment. That it might take a couple of hours to me sounds like a small price to pay when the differential is several hundred dollars. Certainly better spent IMO than spending hours on different websites.

Now smitty, just how did you do your level matching? If you now know or suspect that it was indadquate, why not take a stab at doing it better?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #109 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 10:13 AM
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On the other hand, IMO, this site, with the exception of this forum perhaps, has a different feel. It's hard to articulate it exactly, but if you read the other forums on this site, it kind of has the feel of more of a true hobbyist's site, than a scientific forum (and I don't think the word "Science" in the forum has any relevance). On other forums on this site, people have fun discussing what equipment they have, why certain equipment sounds better or provides a better picture than their old equipment, how to help people get the most out of their equipment, what new products are being developed and what improvements they might offer, etc.

And the reason for that is that nobody claims that the laws of physics don't apply to video. Nobody's taping Brilliant Pebbles to their LCDs. Nobody's rebranding a Panasonic TV and selling it for 60 times as much. If audio hobbyists would stop swallowing the pseudoscientific rot that's being peddled to them, then audio forums wouldn't have to include disquisitions on why it's pseudoscientific rot.

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And I think the repeated posts on this forum that contain negativity about the hobby and the people in it, and repeated posts that CDP's all sound the same, audio reviewers are crackpots, audio salespeople are charlatans or morons, and anybody who believes otherwise is just like an idiot that believes in UFO's or evolution, and so on and so forth, is not beneficial to this site.

You are entitled to this opinion, of course. And it is certainly not my intent to personally demean audio hobbyists, whatever their views. But it is my opinion that much of what passes for "audiophile wisdom," as expressed in Internet forums and those "quality magazines" you hold in such high esteem, does a gross disservice to audio both by misinforming newbies and by turning the hobby into a laughingstock. And if my attempts to counter that nonsense make it sound like I'm calling you nonsensical, well, there's just not much I can do about that.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #110 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Pointing out that CDP's, in a practical sense, vary signficantly in their output voltages, is not all that well understood or known by the end-user and frequently dismissed by reviewers. Pointing out that an individual has it within his means to both measure and correct for that inexpensively (assuming than at least one of the CDP's is adjustable) does nothing more than empower the consumer. If they then go so far as to to implement a blind evaluation using their own equipment, in their own room, using the program material of their choice, if they do enough trials, they can come to a quasi-scientific assessment. That it might take a couple of hours to me sounds like a small price to pay when the differential is several hundred dollars. Certainly better spent IMO than spending hours on different websites.

You have a way of expressing the same thoughts others seem to want to express in a more balanced and even-handed manner, usually without unnecessary insults. I don't always agree with what you say, but I appreciate the way you say it (most of the time anyway). And with regard to the specific point you make above, I don't find much to disagree with. And it's devoid of the hyberbole and overbreadth which frequently gets in the way of some of the points that "objectivists" try to make.

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Now smitty, just how did you do your level matching? If you now know or suspect that it was indadquate, why not take a stab at doing it better?

If you're referring to the comparison's of CDP's I think I referenced on another thread, I don't have those other units anymore. And I'm currently very satisfied with the unit I chose.
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post #111 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

Did I stutter?

No, but you felt it necessary to go off on a tangent about differences of opinion re: evolution..right after writing "I'm not here to debate evolution". You can't have it both ways.
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post #112 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 11:02 AM
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On the other hand, this forum is different and somewhat unique on this site.

Wrong. There are numerous forums on AVSF where claims are challenged as they have been here.
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post #113 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 11:18 AM
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You have a way of expressing the same thoughts others seem to want to express in a more balanced and even-handed manner, usually without unnecessary insults.

I object to that. It is well within my means to be a royal dick! I even have temporary bans from AVS to prove it.

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I don't always agree with what you say, but I appreciate the way you say it (most of the time anyway). And with regard to the specific point you make above, I don't find much to disagree with. And it's devoid of the hyberbole and overbreadth which frequently gets in the way of some of the points that "objectivists" try to make.

Well smitty, if people object or dismiss previous work for whatever reasons, they have it well within their means to come to their own private evaluation. It's my opinion here that one of the 'truths' they'll come to realize is that most of the subjective stuff you read, whether reviews or ad copy, is hyperbole. Unfortunately, that's terribly disconcerting to us. Our senses, all of them, aren't absolutes. They're fleeting when it comes to small differences. There is no Santa. Dad gives you a buck for your tooth. The Easter bunny is there to sell chocolates. "When the truth is found to be lies, you know the joy within you dies." Advertisers and marketers are vewy clever.

Under no circumstances does any of this mean that you should buy the least expensive CDP. You should buy what you can afford and be fully aware that in the vast majority of situations when it comes to sound, your choice is probably as good as that guy who sprung for that top shelf Esoteric. It means that for the guy on a budget, and I assure you I am one of those, that when it comes to equipment purchases, monies are best spent on speakers. Sure, it might mean that things look a bit unbalanced. After all, one does not expect to have a meal prepare by Mario Batali served on Walmart dinnerware.
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If you're referring to the comparison's of CDP's I think I referenced on another thread, I don't have those other units anymore. And I'm currently very satisfied with the unit I chose.

Well maybe you'll be curious enough to evaluate something that's supposed to be better. If not this time, perhaps in the future. At the very least though, you could run a series of test tones on your present unit and record the voltages. Someday in the future, when you suspect things aren't kosher, you can rerun them and see if your CDP went 'South'.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #114 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 11:23 AM
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No, but you felt it necessary to go off on a tangent about differences of opinion re: evolution..right after writing "I'm not here to debate evolution". You can't have it both ways.

So let's now discuss what we said about evolution and argue about whether that constituted a "debate" about evolution.

Sigh.

How 'bout those Giants?
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post #115 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

How 'bout those Giants?

Giants suck. And I've got the data to prove it...Ha.

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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Under no circumstances does any of this mean that you should buy the least expensive CDP. You should buy what you can afford and be fully aware that in the vast majority of situations when it comes to sound, your choice is probably as good as that guy who sprung for that top shelf Esoteric. It means that for the guy on a budget, and I assure you I am one of those, that when it comes to equipment purchases, monies are best spent on speakers. Sure, it might mean that things look a bit unbalanced. After all, one does not expect to have a meal prepare by Mario Batali served on Walmart dinnerware.

See...we're all closer to being one big happy family than I would have ever thought. I completely agree with the concept of balance. Someone else has already said something to this effect here, but even if audible differences exist between any two CDPs, you ain't going to hear it through those 3.5" plastic molded speakers set up in your acoustically untreated glass, tiled atrium. Feathers get ruffled when people say, oh you're system just isn't "revealing" (or whatever) enough to hear the difference between two CDPs, but there is a grain of truth to that.


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post #116 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 12:06 PM
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Lol.

You guys are phucking hilarious.

Anyhow it would appear to be that my new system will not sound very much different than the guy with the most expensive accurate system no matter what my hears tell me when I plug in my new cd player today. To me that is just fantastic news!
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post #117 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ssteel01 View Post

Giants suck. And I've got the data to prove it...Ha.

I'm actually a 30-year Cowboys fan, which just goes to show I'm willing to consider both sides of any issue.
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post #118 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

I'm actually a 30-year Cowboys fan, which just goes to show I'm willing to consider both sides of any issue.

I'm actually a Philadelphia explant...so what the hell do I know about a good football team.


Scott
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post #119 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 12:17 PM
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Anyhow it would appear to be that my new system will not sound very much different than the guy with the most expensive accurate system no matter what my hears tell me when I plug in my new cd player today.

That depends on how your speakers and room compare to his.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #120 of 147 Old 01-23-2008, 12:18 PM
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Giants suck. And I've got the data to prove it...Ha.

Yeah, but then why does Brady have to come to NYC for his booty call?! Huh?



Ummm...never mind

Pat's ain't been covering the spread for about 7 games that is unless you consider that Brady's been doing Giselle. They ain't gonna cover this one either. Remember, you heard it here.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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