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Old 01-29-2008, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

What's this? Smitty who objects to people bringing up "science" all the time, when he just wants to talk about audio with other hobbyists, suddenly wants references? Give me a break.

Go back to college, and get to know the Psychology faculty. I'm not a database. But here's one article in the popular press you might want to peruse:

Go back to college? I asked you for a reference so we can make sure what we're talking about when you referred to JND's and you tell me to go back to college?

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Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

Very interesting discussion and I am sure that it will continue for a while, but hasn't anybody noticed that Smitty's entire argument seems to be:

"This is they way I feel, this is what I think, this is what my ears tell me, nothing anybody else tells me, nothing that I read, no study that you post, will change my mind. This is my opinion and as an opinion I am entitled to it and nothing you show me or tell me will ever change my mind as what I think is based on what my "ears" tell me."

Like a faith based argument, Smitty has employed the time tested and proven "Golden Ears" argument. And gentlemen, all of you must know that there is no counter argument to this. If Smitty was willing to objectively look at the data he would be an objective person. But as he as employed the dreaded "Golden Ears" argument in the first place he has demonstrated that this is not objective or logical, and is only willing to believe what he "hears", and is unwilling to consider that there may be other reasons to explain what he hears other than, they must sound different.

I haven't said many or maybe even any of the things you have said I said, although I concede other subjectivists have made some of these types of arguments in the past. In short, I think you're setting up a straw man, apparently in a calculated attempt to make me appear foolish.

* * * *

And in terms of "hasn't anybody noticed," hasn't anybody noticed that several of you are rather unpleasant when discussing these issues. I don't understand it. It's as if acceptance of your point of view is necessary for personal validation or something. I don't know any of you personally, but I bet if we met and talked, we'd probably get along just fine, even though we may disagree on some things. For some reason, people who discuss some of these things on an internet forum act the same way some people do when they get behind the wheel of a car. I suppose it's the anonymity that begets the lack of civility.

In any event, several of you have made some good points (which I have admitted several times) buried amidst some of your insults, dogma, and misrepresentations of my position, but I think I'll withdraw from further discussion for awhile, as this whole discussion is taking on more of an attack than a friendly dialogue (with one or two obvious exceptions).
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Old 01-29-2008, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JorgeLopez11 View Post

But I think this discussion has been helpful anyway. Many people can still get the point and learn something more about subjective testing.

This is a very good point. These type of discussions can be very educational for people that have a desire to gain a rational perspective on this hobby; either just entering it, or when getting itchy about upgrading. Particularly since a lot (most? all?) of the anecdotal information they have at the outset probably falls on the myth side of things.

When this topic gets trotted out over and over, particular when the time frame is weeks or months apart (not the case recently!), it is worth remembering that the silent audience following it may be different each time.
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Old 01-29-2008, 12:35 PM
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In the interests of harmony...


"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 01-29-2008, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Then you know nothing about the scientific community. It is full of people who would like nothing better than to discover something that rendered a lot of prior research invalid. It would make their career.


My thought was there maybe some embarressed scientist, however maybe not bcause I am not involved with the scientific community, well other this forum. The 'S' in AVS stands for science, does it not?

Again I want to express my thanks to all posters that have offered something of value in this thread and helped me learn more about this hobby.
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Old 01-29-2008, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

Can you describe or link me to the tests involving JND's that you reference above? You're not talking about the tests that ask people to distinguish between test tones are you? Your reference to the detection level being under one second seems to suggest that type of test. That's an entirely different scenario, and the reliance on those tests is one of the skeptics "myths."
.


There is no JND paper for music per say, as it has no meaning really. Different music has different thresholds.
There is no JND papers for long term listening in a Journal paper since scientists know that that is also meaningless since memory for small and threshold area differences is rather short, very short.

But, there is a paper comparing the ability to level match different types of sounds, speech, pink noise, different music, etc:

Soulodre, Gilbert A., Lavoie, Michael C., and Norcross, Scott G. The Subjective Loudness of Typical Program Material, AES Convention Paper 5892, 115th Convention, Oct 2003.

and, there is a long term amp test under DBT conditions, listening to music:

Shanefield, Daniel, " The Great Ego Crunchers: Equalized, Double Blind Testing,: Hi-Fidelity, Mar 80, pg 57-61.

and there are several JND papers, using the most sensitive signals known:

Florentine, Mary, et al 'Level Discrimination as a Function of Level for Tones from .25 to 16kHz. Journal of Acoustic Society of America, 81(5) May 1987, pg 1528-1541.

Zwislocki, J and Jordan H. 'On the Relations of Intensity JND's to Loudness and Neural Noise,' Journal of Acoustics Society of America, 79(3), Mar 86, pg 772-780.


So, if this doesn't satisfy ones curiosity, I suppose you can do your own study, or convince some organization or university to do one.
Or, perhaps, someone has already done one but the citation is just elusive?
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Old 01-29-2008, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

I understand what you're saying, but I just don't agree. To me, there is a vast difference between listing to a short non-descript test tone burst, and a musical selection. In other words, I don't think it is persuasive to say that people can't remember a particular test tone for more than x seconds and that means auditory memory for how a particular music selection sounds is very short. I haven't talked to my daughter, who's away at college for two weeks. I think I'll know her voice instantly if she calls me on the phone (and also be able to tell if she has a cold), even if she doesn't identify herself right away, and even if there are "masking issues." Recognition of a human voice that one has become familiar with is not like a test tone burst either.

One way to satisfy your curiosity, smitty, is to conduct your own study, have it peer reviewed and published. Rather simple.
You are asking others to prove you correct when the evidence is not with you. Not going to happen.
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Old 01-29-2008, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

In the interests of harmony...


Thank you for that, you jackass!

I may even have to make that my email sig. It'd definitely make a great bumper sticker. Is that what that is? If so, can you provide a link, please.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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Old 01-29-2008, 02:10 PM
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Why, you're welcome you pompous blowhard . Yes, it's a bumpersticker. Just right click on the image and get its properties.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 01-29-2008, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Yes, it's a bumpersticker. Just right click on the image and get its properties.

Wow! I could plaster all my windows with those!

"Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore."

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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Old 01-29-2008, 02:39 PM
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Stickers guaranteed to offend anyone and everyone, that's for sure. For a more amusing thing you can place on Walmart handicapped signs, consider this one.


"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

drecar, hearing is like any other of our senses when it comes to fine comparisons. The approaches and techniques that work for taste, smell, touch, sight work just as well for hearing. Were we as consumers and enthusiasts to take a more pragmatic approach to this hobby we might have less junk in the marketplace and more competition that's performance and not hype driven. Now, you'll all excuse me while I listen to the 'sound' of various solder compositions.

Which solder composition do you feel gives the most natural sound? At what temp should my iron be at................lol?
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Old 01-29-2008, 06:10 PM
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Your iron should be hot enough so that you can make a grilled cheese sandwich.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 01-29-2008, 07:18 PM
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A friend mentioned this interesting info. What do you think guys?

Quote:


Human Brain: Detective Of Auditory And Visual Change

ScienceDaily (Jan. 22, 2008) — The human brain is capable of detecting the slightest visual and auditory changes. Whether it is the flash of a student’s hand into the air or the faintest miscue of a flutist, the brain instantaneously and effortlessly perceives changes in our environment. Several studies have indicated, however, that even a small span of time in between pre- and post-change images can disturb the brain’s ability to detect visual discrepancies.

“The pre-change scene must be memorized in some way,” explained psychologists Laurent Demany, Wiebke Trost, Maja Serman and Catherine Semal from the University of Bordeaux and the French National Center for Scientific Research (CNRS). “In the visual domain, numerous experiments have shown that even a very short gap of less than 100ms can dramatically disrupt our ability to detect a local change in complex images. Following such a gap, local changes can be detected only in very simple images.” This phenomenon is known as ‘change blindness.’

In a recent study, the aforementioned psychologists assessed the effect of time gaps on change detection in audition. Their goal was to determine if the brain uses similar mechanisms to perceive auditory changes as it does with vision. Participants had to detect a pitch change in one tone presented together with other tones. The complexity of the pre-change sound was varied, as well as the duration of the silent interval between the pre- and post-change sounds.

The experimenters reasoned that if auditory change detection is similar to the visual process, a complex sound (including many tones) should be remembered less well than a simple sound (including few tones).
The psychologists discovered, however, that this was not the case. The participants were able to remember even the most complex sounds -- reaching up to 12 tones -- despite the time delays.

The results of the study, which appear in the January 2008 issue of Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science, indicate that the brain uses more efficient mechanisms in auditory memory than in visual memory. To that extent, the human brain appears to be a keener detective of auditory change than visual change.

Adapted from materials provided by Association for Psychological Science.

This is the web link: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0118115432.htm

I'd love to read the original paper.
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Old 01-29-2008, 08:25 PM
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Interesting, but I'd like to know more. There's not much need for visual memorization, since any change in what you're looking at you'll see as motion. Sounds in nature aren't necessarily constant, so memorization might be important here. (Are the footsteps getting closer?)

Presumably there's a tail-off as the delay gets longer, so it'd be interesting to know what the range of delays was.

Should also note a difference between this experiment and comparing audio components. In the experiment, all of the tones were fundamentals. In comparing audio components, you are listening for distortion artifacts. There's a big difference between changing one pitch in a chord and changing the level of the second harmonic in a chord.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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Old 01-29-2008, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JorgeLopez11 View Post

A friend mentioned this interesting info. What do you think guys?



This is the web link: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0118115432.htm

I'd love to read the original paper.

Interesting indeed.
But, I am wondering how was the brains reaction tested for that 100msduration. Was there a brain reaction only, or the person actually is aware of that difference and can verbalize it that that was the change within that 100ms. Perhaps the brain reacts or appears to react to something, but what if that information is lost so that one just cannot do something about that change, yell hey, something changed.

As to that sound, how long was that 12 note duration that was remembered. And what was remembered about them, that they were there, all different, in the right sequence? Or, some were changed and correctly identified? After all maybe those tones were different enough to remember? A large change?
Or, something like the games that sequence notes, more and more complex and one has to paly them back, although those notes also accompany colored light?
Yes, it would be interesting to read the whole experiment.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:58 AM
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Well, the tones are discrete entitities, not surrounded or contained withing some sort of musical passage. The visual discrimination they discussed (according the news snippet) deal with information contained within complex images. AFAIK, they didn't create the equivalent visually. But, without reading the paper, it's almost useless to speculate like I did and may be ridiculous to extrapolate. I've sent an email to Demany asking for a copy of the paper. If I get it, I'll post back.

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Old 01-30-2008, 06:47 AM
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This is the Abstract:

Quote:
ABSTRACTPrevious research has shown that the detectability of a local change in a visual image is essentially independent of the complexity of the image when the interstimulus interval (ISI) is very short, but is limited by a low-capacity memory system when the ISI exceeds 100 ms. In the study reported here, listeners made same/different judgments on pairs of successive "chords" (sums of pure tones with random frequencies). The change to be detected was always a frequency shift in one of the tones, and which tone would change was unpredictable. Performance worsened as the number of tones increased, but this effect was not larger for 2-s ISIs than for 0-ms ISIs. Similar results were obtained when a chord was followed by a single tone that had to be judged as higher or lower than the closest component of the chord. Overall, our data suggest that change detection is based on different mechanisms in audition and vision.

Hopefully Chu may get a copy of this paper.
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:03 AM
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Jorge, I take it you've seen this remarkable feat of memorization?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:35 AM
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No, but its amazing! I'm still scratching my head
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:45 AM
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I had a quick browse through the paper, and the representation of the results in the ScienceDaily summary is misleading. Greater interstimulus time and more complexity both clearly degrade accurate recollection. The novel finding appears to be that, unlike with vision, the effect of complexity does not increase with increasing interstimulus time. Also, their results point to longer memory for small auditory changes than for visual ones.

This is good news for the validity of auditory DBTs; the stronger auditory memory is, the more we should expect listeners to detect real differences between sources.
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Presumably there's a tail-off as the delay gets longer, so it'd be interesting to know what the range of delays was.

It was up to 2 seconds (0,250,750,2000 ms).

Quote:
Should also note a difference between this experiment and comparing audio components. In the experiment, all of the tones were fundamentals. In comparing audio components, you are listening for distortion artifacts. There's a big difference between changing one pitch in a chord and changing the level of the second harmonic in a chord.

That's a good point.
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:05 AM
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For those who want it, I now have the copy. PM me with an email address.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSteel View Post

I had a quick browse through the paper, and the representation of the results in the ScienceDaily summary is misleading. Greater interstimulus time and more complexity both clearly degrade accurate recollection. The novel finding appears to be that, unlike with vision, the effect of complexity does not increase with increasing interstimulus time. Also, their results point to longer memory for small auditory changes than for visual ones.

This is good news for the validity of auditory DBTs; the stronger auditory memory is, the more we should expect listeners to detect real differences between sources.

Also, one needs to know that this experiment was conducted with headphones to quantify JND limits of sorts, not speakers in a reverberant acoustic space; tones of equal magnitudes, same combinations compared except for one tone changing in frequency of 1/4 octave or 1/2 octave.
Music is anything but like these stimulus tones.
And, unfortunately, or not, no long term comparison was tested, say up to days and months as some claim is needed
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