OT: Maybe the xm sirius merger might not happen till next year... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 05-13-2008, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Although the justice department approved it I won't expect anything to be approved until at least january...why?

someone on a business channel put it like this. Terrestrial radio get ticked off at politicians that allow the merger...OK so what do they do...they refuse to run any political ads this season. Taking political ads out of radio and well that could easily hurt campaigns.

Also another person basically put it as a merger could be allowed as long as it is just one license. If they could cram everything into the same spectrum then it would be fine. Sometimes when stations in the past bought each other out they might have dropped the license from one station.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this get delayed until the spring contingent that some of the licenses change.
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post #2 of 19 Old 05-14-2008, 12:30 AM
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The merger of the two satellite radio companies will make HD Radio all the more appealing. I have had no interest whatsoever in either satellite radio service at their current prices and programming practices, and the merger is likely to make the remaining company/service far less attractive (for more of the same reasons), not more attractive, in my opinion.

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post #3 of 19 Old 05-14-2008, 06:11 AM
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There's also audio quality to take into consideration. A properly engineered HD station sounds worlds better then XM radio. I had it as a free service when I bought my car and the sound is filled with digital artifacts. If I want music I listen to my IPOD which has 5,000 songs.
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post #4 of 19 Old 05-14-2008, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell View Post

someone on a business channel put it like this. Terrestrial radio get ticked off at politicians that allow the merger...OK so what do they do...they refuse to run any political ads this season. Taking political ads out of radio and well that could easily hurt campaigns.

Someone on a business channel is on crack. Taking political ads out of radio would hurt the stations a heck of a lot more than it would hurt the campaigns. Not gonna happen.
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Originally Posted by R.F. Burns View Post

There's also audio quality to take into consideration. A properly engineered HD station sounds worlds better then XM radio. I had it as a free service when I bought my car and the sound is filled with digital artifacts. If I want music I listen to my IPOD which has 5,000 songs.

XM changed its codec. It's now using AAC+SBR which provides far better sound. AAC+SBR can provide FM-quality sound as low as 24 kbit/sec, and that is the same codec as used by HD Radio. (I should say "similar" since HD Radio's version is MPEG4+SBR, which is nearly identical to AAC+SBR.)

As for HD Radio, my unit only picks-up the extra -HD2 and -HD3 channels ~10 miles from D.C. or Baltimore..... after which point there's just silence as my moving car drives away from the city. Silence is more annoying than a few artifacts.
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post #6 of 19 Old 05-14-2008, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rrrrrroger View Post

XM changed its codec. It's now using AAC+SBR which provides far better sound. AAC+SBR can provide FM-quality sound as low as 24 kbit/sec, and that is the same codec as used by HD Radio. (I should say "similar" since HD Radio's version is MPEG4+SBR, which is nearly identical to AAC+SBR.)

As for HD Radio, my unit only picks-up the extra -HD2 and -HD3 channels ~10 miles from D.C. or Baltimore..... after which point there's just silence as my moving car drives away from the city. Silence is more annoying than a few artifacts.

I'm guessing that the Satellite fans have discovered ths board. Enjoy your satellite and your monthly bill. I don't have HD in the car, but at my house 25 miles from NYC I receive all HD's using a dipole and a Boston Acoustics Receptor. I don't know when XM changed codecs but I was listening between November of last year and January of 08. My car is a Civic EX with navagation system, 6 speakers and subwoofer. It's an excellent system which is very revealing considering the environment and my I-Pod sounds fabulous. The XM audio I heard was truly lo-fi. I've just ordered the Sony HD tuner. That will make my fourth HD radio. To each their own.
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post #7 of 19 Old 05-14-2008, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I think there's enough of a market for both things. What would appeal in terms of for xm and sirus is that there is no (hopefully) censorship. Although I don't exactly like him personally I think the FCC really gave howard stern above and beyond what would be normal punishment. I know there's uncensored opie and anthony and I know fans of both. Sports I can understand as unless someone dx's another area it can be hard to get the audio of sports teams in other markets. Some content you can nearly get anywhere (npr). Some people don't like commericals so I think its fair that people would pay as to not hear them...although there's different arguments when it comes to television with that.

as for the codec it depends as they appear somewhat related
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HE-AAC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding

Just to note dispite Apple using this I think for the ipods they do NOT own AAC

reception from what I found out depends on the station..some sound much better and some sound hardly better.

on the classical station was the biggest difference...I could hear the guy with the cough in the back of the room.
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post #8 of 19 Old 05-15-2008, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrrrrroger View Post

As for HD Radio, my unit only picks-up the extra -HD2 and -HD3 channels ~10 miles from D.C. or Baltimore..... after which point there's just silence as my moving car drives away from the city. Silence is more annoying than a few artifacts.

Maybe you need a better antenna. I drive through many hilly areas all over the San Francisco Bay Area and only occasionally lose my HD2 signals, which are all commercial-free and cost nothing, of course. In fact, the one station where I lose the HD signal is from about 30 miles away (San Jose, KUFX).

Oh, whenever I ride with my friend with satellite radio, it drops out fairly often. He loves the service, though.

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post #9 of 19 Old 05-15-2008, 04:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by R.F. Burns View Post

I'm guessing that the Satellite fans have discovered ths board. Enjoy your satellite and your monthly bill.

You know what they say about "assuming" things? Well, you just did that.

I don't have any satellite radios. My comments are based upon what I have read (regarding XM using ACC+SBR codec) and what I have experienced while riding in friends' cars.


Also $6 a month hardly seems expensive if the radio works anytime, anywhere..... as opposed to my own Car-installed Visteon Zoom HD which only gets HD2 or HD3 channels when within 10 miles of major cities.
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I don't have HD in the car,

Well then, how can you tell me my opinion is "wrong" if you've never tried HD inside a moving vehicle??? I suppose if I was standing still, I too could get long distance HD Radio using my CM4228, but I don't use radio in this circumstance. I only use "radio" while in the car which is a moving vehicle with nothing more than a whip antenna.
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The XM audio I heard was truly lo-fi. I've just ordered the Sony HD tuner. That will make my fourth HD radio. To each their own.

The XM audio sounds good in my friends' cars.... and it sounds good on AOL.com's radio server too.
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post #10 of 19 Old 05-15-2008, 04:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV View Post

Maybe you need a better antenna. I drive through many hilly areas all over the San Francisco Bay Area and only occasionally lose my HD2 signals....

What antenna do you recommend for my car?

Thanks.
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post #11 of 19 Old 05-15-2008, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrrrrroger View Post

XM changed its codec. It's now using AAC+SBR which provides far better sound. AAC+SBR can provide FM-quality sound as low as 24 kbit/sec, and that is the same codec as used by HD Radio. (I should say "similar" since HD Radio's version is MPEG4+SBR, which is nearly identical to AAC+SBR.)

XM has always used AAC+, although they originally planned to used PAC as Sirius does. HD radio uses the proprietary HDC which is sort of PAC+SBR
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post #12 of 19 Old 05-16-2008, 04:27 AM
 
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XM has always used AAC+, although they originally planned to used PAC as Sirius does. HD radio uses the proprietary HDC which is sort of PAC+SBR

No. HDC is a variant of AAC+SBR according to wikipedia.

If XM and HD are using the same codec, why would some people think XM sounds poor? They ought to sound about the same.
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post #13 of 19 Old 05-17-2008, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by narkspud View Post

Someone on a business channel is on crack. Taking political ads out of radio would hurt the stations a heck of a lot more than it would hurt the campaigns. Not gonna happen.

No kidding. If a station doesn't run political ads, it's probably because they're already sold out at full rate or are in a tight ratings battle. Anyway, broadcasters are not all that concerned with satellite as its growth is rather stagnant and hasn't impacted terrestrial radio. If anything, terrestrial radio is seeing some growth thanks to higher fuel and grocery prices. Those on a budget may be scaling back some luxuries which may include pay-for-music options. Radio companies' foray into internet content delivery is growing exponentially as people discover they can listen to nearly any radio station anywhere at any time or construct their own station that'll play whatever they want for free.

Granted, the latter doesn't work in cars. Yet .

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #14 of 19 Old 05-17-2008, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Just to note I have a friend that's a fan of stern that subscribes to sirius and there are dropouts sometimes with going in tunnels or under bridges. I think nearly anything outside of listening to a cd/mp3 could have dropouts..

IMHO I don't think satellite radio costs that much maybe in the future I might even get it. I just rather see what the other companies are trying. Things could be worse...ever lookup worldspace? it's like the DRM of the satellite radio world but their company had some shady links to things...
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post #15 of 19 Old 05-17-2008, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrrrrroger View Post

No. HDC is a variant of AAC+SBR according to wikipedia.

If XM and HD are using the same codec, why would some people think XM sounds poor? They ought to sound about the same.

AAC+ is AAC with SBR (HE-AAC v1).

From what iBiquity told me at a trade show, they own PAC (probably from the merger of USA Digital and Lucent Digital Radio). They subsequently developed HDC which included SBR. It's not an open format and considered a trade secret. More than likely it has elements from a few codecs. Besides the codec, a major reason for SQ difference with XM is bitrate. Not sure but I think XM is still using HE-AAC v1 - someone will probably correct me if I'm in error.

The problem with these formats like sat and HD radio is they get locked in hardware. Streaming with soft decoders can continue to improve on a given device until the required horsepower is exceeded.
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post #16 of 19 Old 05-20-2008, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rrrrrroger View Post

What antenna do you recommend for my car?

Thanks.

Here is a good discussion of car antennas for HD Radio reception:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849634

Chris

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post #17 of 19 Old 05-25-2008, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mdovell View Post

Although the justice department approved it I won't expect anything to be approved until at least january...why?

someone on a business channel put it like this. Terrestrial radio get ticked off at politicians that allow the merger...OK so what do they do...they refuse to run any political ads this season. Taking political ads out of radio and well that could easily hurt campaigns.

Also another person basically put it as a merger could be allowed as long as it is just one license. If they could cram everything into the same spectrum then it would be fine. Sometimes when stations in the past bought each other out they might have dropped the license from one station.

I wouldn't be surprised to see this get delayed until the spring contingent that some of the licenses change.

"DOJ Approves Sirius/XM Merger"

"The statement also dismisses claims by HD Radio that a merged Sirius and XM would exclude competing technology from car stereos and other equipment."

electronista.com/articles/08/03/24/doj.approves.sirius.xm/

"FCC Chairman says Sirius-XM ruling possible by June 30th"

"Regarding the open device condition, we agreed with the Chairman that should the Commission permit any entity to manufacture a satellite radio receiver, it would obviate the need for a mandate that all satellite radios have an HD radio chip, or that they be interoperable. In that case, the market would inevitably provide for satellite radio receivers with a wide variety of features (emphasis added). Takeaway: This is a strong suggestion that iBiquity's proposal is losing ground in favor of open access."

orbitcast.com/archives/public-interest-groups-meet-with-chairman-martin-with-lots-of-details.html

So far, the DOJ has ruled against HD Radio, and it looks like iBiquity is losing ground with the FCC (whoever thought that would happen, since until now, the FCC approval of HD/IBOC has been a complete giveaway to iBiquity). Struble might regret opening Satrad receivers up to iPod jacks, Internet Radio, etc. The FCC might rule by July, if Satrad hasn't gone bankrupt by that time. With Internet Radio coming to BMW and Chrysler, and surely will be the norm in the future, Satrad and HD Radio are only buying time. Here's a really cool article on the testing of mobile Internet Radio:

"Honolulu's Brock Whaley: I have heard the future in my car"

"We have Clearwire here in Hawaii, so I thought, What the hell? Will it work in my car? Can I have the world's radio stations at my fingertips while I drive around Kailua and Honolulu? Can I listen to London, Atlanta, and Chicago while I drive to Safeway and back? Can I still DX? Can I listen with in stereo with no fading, static, and drop out? Can I really access the web for miles while in motion?"

textpattern.kurthanson.com/kurtsblog/384/brock-whaley-i-have-heard-the-future

There's no way that either Satrad, or HD Radio, could compete with Internet Radio's access to 10,000+ stations worldwide.
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post #18 of 19 Old 05-25-2008, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PocketRadioAgain View Post

"DOJ Approves Sirius/XM Merger"

"The statement also dismisses claims by HD Radio that a merged Sirius and XM would exclude competing technology from car stereos and other equipment."

electronista.com/articles/08/03/24/doj.approves.sirius.xm/

"FCC Chairman says Sirius-XM ruling possible by June 30th"

"Regarding the open device condition, we agreed with the Chairman that should the Commission permit any entity to manufacture a satellite radio receiver, it would obviate the need for a mandate that all satellite radios have an HD radio chip, or that they be interoperable. In that case, the market would inevitably provide for satellite radio receivers with a wide variety of features (emphasis added). Takeaway: This is a strong suggestion that iBiquity's proposal is losing ground in favor of open access."

orbitcast.com/archives/public-interest-groups-meet-with-chairman-martin-with-lots-of-details.html

So far, the DOJ has ruled against HD Radio, and it looks like iBiquity is losing ground with the FCC (whoever thought that would happen, since until now, the FCC approval of HD/IBOC has been a complete giveaway to iBiquity). Struble might regret opening Satrad receivers up to iPod jacks, Internet Radio, etc. The FCC might rule by July, if Satrad hasn't gone bankrupt by that time. With Internet Radio coming to BMW and Chrysler, and surely will be the norm in the future, Satrad and HD Radio are only buying time. Here's a really cool article on the testing of mobile Internet Radio:

"Honolulu's Brock Whaley: I have heard the future in my car"

"We have Clearwire here in Hawaii, so I thought, What the hell? Will it work in my car? Can I have the world's radio stations at my fingertips while I drive around Kailua and Honolulu? Can I listen to London, Atlanta, and Chicago while I drive to Safeway and back? Can I still DX? Can I listen with in stereo with no fading, static, and drop out? Can I really access the web for miles while in motion?"

textpattern.kurthanson.com/kurtsblog/384/brock-whaley-i-have-heard-the-future

There's no way that either Satrad, or HD Radio, could compete with Internet Radio's access to 10,000+ stations worldwide.

Here we go again. Please wake me when the national infrastucture is built. No one disagrees that at some point this may become a reality but it will be many years before its availability is national. hey, I live in a major city and can't even get VIOS. DSL isn't available either and how many yaesr has it been around? Don't hold your breath.
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post #19 of 19 Old 05-25-2008, 08:33 AM
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WiMax is already here:

http://www.wimax-vision.com/

It is coming to the Wash/Balto area (and others) this Fall. Ford has Sync (through cell phone networks, WiFi, and WiMax), Hyundai has Microsoft Auto, and BMW and Chrysler will be installing in-dash Internet this Fall. So, it is not going to be "many years" as you claim. Interesting that Hyundai is only carrying HD Radio in one model, now - must have been a bust.
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