Why hasn't HD radio taken off in the household market? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 115 Old 02-28-2015, 12:04 PM
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Sorry, it's just annoying when someone takes a small sample of anything and projects global conclusions from it. I have the same issue with the polls that become headlines on TV news outlets. They'll take an online survey of 3,000 people and draw global conclusions from it. "50% of Americans are into some form of lovemaking bondage." ...according to a survey of 3,000 people who responded to a poll taken at cuffmylover.com. And my comment on streaming was just a joke toward that point. Still, we see most streaming on phones at work, not in cars. Again, it's limited-sample survey research that's subject to interpretation. But I don't foresee it surpassing terrestrial radio anytime soon. If anything, it's supplanting it. The streaming figures on my own station, alone, are surprising. Where we used to get listener input from our coverage area, it now comes from all over the state with a little from Michigan ex-pats listening from other states.

Another surprise is the people who go with the stream due to the improved audio quality. Say what you will, but multiplexed FM stereo has its limitations. AFAIK, our stream source comes right off the same audio chain as our HD and analog (analog delay notwithstanding). I have to wonder how many of the poor-sounding FM HD stations have issues upstream on the audio chain that are only revealed by digital listening. Analog FM can hide a lot of issues. I doubt every station has a fully-digital plant as we do with a team of perfectionist engineers. Wouldn't surprise me to see an Audiotronics console at the top of that chain with a Derraugh box right behind it. An FM receiver would sound fine, but the program audio feeding it wouldn't. Garbage in.. well, you know the rest.

I'm serious about the offer. I'll pick you up and the airport, we'll drive around town and you can hear it for yourself. We'll even stop off at American Coney Island for one of Motown's most authentic treats. I know the owner. She'll hook us up.

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post #62 of 115 Old 03-02-2015, 08:30 AM
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No sooner do I mention small-sample surveys than this comes up: AM/FM Radio Dominates In-Car listening; HD Radio Use Hits 7%

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post #63 of 115 Old 03-04-2015, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
I doubt every station has a fully-digital plant as we do
You think that would have been the case if no-stream Mel was still around?
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post #64 of 115 Old 03-06-2015, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dude111 View Post
Hehe ya got that right bud!!!!!!! (I love analogue)

I have listenend to Sirius and XM online and they sound OK (Like most other streams) ..... Just listening IN THE CAR OVER THIER RADIO sounds bad.... (Actual digital audio from thier radio??)
Sirius / XM in the car is like a bitrate starved, mono, muffled super low quality mp3 and sounds terrible, not to mention pitch issues like they speed up the program..........

Nobody knows about "HD" radio therefore nobody uses it execpt for a few of the likes which frequent this forum.....Its dead IMO.
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post #65 of 115 Old 03-06-2015, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post
Nobody knows about "HD" radio therefore nobody uses it execpt for a few of the likes which frequent this forum.....Its dead IMO.

Also, it seems to me that the anticipated arrival "in a few years" of ATSC3.0 audio-only content--deliverable "ubiquitously" though all OTA|CATV|mobile|IP distribution technologies--might presage another competitor|obstacle to wider adoption of HD Radio, even if ATSC3.0 does not actually erode HD Radio's existing 'loyal' customer base...?!


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post #66 of 115 Old 03-13-2015, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
I have to wonder how many of the poor-sounding FM HD stations have issues upstream on the audio chain that are only revealed by digital listening. Analog FM can hide a lot of issues. I doubt every station has a fully-digital plant as we do with a team of perfectionist engineers.
A couple of stations here were still playing MP2 files (128-192 Kbps) from their original playout server. This sounded acceptable in analog stereo FM but sounded horrible in HD Radio. There was no doubt when one of these files started playing. Not only did we hear every digital artifact but these files also had the highs reduced since stereo FM can't reproduce them anyway.

DJ's went through the trouble of reripping every file they could from CD with lossless quality. There are still a few songs that they couldn't find.

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post #67 of 115 Old 03-13-2015, 01:57 PM
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You would be surprised at how good analog Stereo FM can sound if the station does not apply any EQ or compression to music and just relies upon limiters and proper levels to avoid hitting the limiters. The station will not sound loud next to stations running typical compression. Mono FM was truly wonderful. Here in Albany, NY we have WRPI which avoids compression and sounds great. Our NPR station relies upon compression to keep it simple. The music has the life drained out of it.
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post #68 of 115 Old 03-13-2015, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rfeir View Post
You would be surprised at how good analog Stereo FM can sound if the station does not apply any EQ or compression to music and just relies upon limiters and proper levels to avoid hitting the limiters.
I have heard such stations and I'm only surprised by how awful they sound. I can't ignore the rolled-off highs, the blurry stereo spectrum, and the inevitable crunch of multipath. At least my Sony F1HD does a good job of eliminating hiss to at least give the illusion of some dynamic range.
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post #69 of 115 Old 06-18-2015, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I wonder how the tuner in a receiver such as an aevantage or a denon would compare to a standalone home unit. I am going to the AVS warehouse sale tomorrow and might have a chance to get a unit, even though I recently bought a nice pioneer with cool class D amplifiers. If I could find a 4311 there for a good price I would be tempted to return the pioneer, which I bought at BB with a significant discount, as the Denon is technically "superior" and conveniently has HD radio built in. It's a model I had been looking at for a long time. I haven't opened the pioneer yet and wonder if I should just keep it. I know the HD radio in my car does not match the quality of a CD or even close, or my Alpine radio is degrading it, but its not fair since in these B markets the radio quality is lower than Miami where HD-2s seemed great; some HD-2s OTOH even broadcast iHeartRadio stations with abysmal quality. However at least one station has a nice substation with good quality sound and it would be very convenient to have a tuner built in. I guess it depends on just how good these deals are tomorrow, but I suppose for circa $100 it would be bad to get a real tuner that would likely be higher quality. Thoughts?
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post #70 of 115 Old 06-19-2015, 09:33 AM
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Yamaha top of the line receivers have dropped HD radio in their new models

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/aventage/
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post #71 of 115 Old 06-27-2015, 03:02 PM
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Onkyo dropped theirs in their mid-line AVRs a while ago, too.
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post #72 of 115 Old 06-28-2015, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Apparently this is somewhat political. A Google search of "HD radio decline" brought up some interesting stuff including this:

http://www.markramseymedia.com/2014/...means-for-you/

I guess I should stop worrying about getting it in a receiver let alone buying a dedicated one as by the sounds of it my stations should be dropping their digital broadcast altogether any day now

It looks like A4L took down their refurbished 4311 listing, I had been looking at that receiver for a long time for several reasons but never got it. Now ebay is about the only option, with no warranty and about the same price.

The cache shows it as sold out:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
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density of quality

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post #73 of 115 Old 06-28-2015, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCA Dimensia View Post
Apparently this is somewhat political. A Google search of "HD radio decline" brought up some interesting stuff including this:

http://www.markramseymedia.com/2014/...means-for-you/

I guess I should stop worrying about getting it in a receiver let alone buying a dedicated one as by the sounds of it my stations should be dropping their digital broadcast altogether any day now
My issue with HD Radio is just poor reception. More times than I care to mention, I have problems receiving a good digital signal while the analog signal is fine. If they really want HD Radio to go somewhere they need to improve the reliability of the digital signal. When I reliably do get the digital signal, the quality is much better (better channel sepration and clarity). Also, I have called stations regarding their digital signal when I have issues and they seem not to care because no one knows about the digital signal or they say that someone would call back and 99% of the time they don't. Seems to me that radio stations are spending money but don't care that people have a hard time receiving the digital format. Not a good way to do business.
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post #74 of 115 Old 06-29-2015, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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A few times I've wanted to contact some stations about a timing difference between their analog and digital broadcast (digital about a full second ahead) that makes it annoying for an in and out digital signal. I didn't because I thought it would seem too trivial to them.
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post #75 of 115 Old 07-08-2015, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCA Dimensia View Post
A few times I've wanted to contact some stations about a timing difference between their analog and digital broadcast (digital about a full second ahead) that makes it annoying for an in and out digital signal. I didn't because I thought it would seem too trivial to them.
I've done this many times over the years. Only one station didn't fix it within a day.

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post #76 of 115 Old 07-08-2015, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by RCA Dimensia View Post
Apparently this is somewhat political. A Google search of "HD radio decline" brought up some interesting stuff including this:

http://www.markramseymedia.com/2014/...means-for-you/
Because if it's on the internet, it MUST be true.

Seriously, most of these sites are run by the same Ibiquity haters that frequently troll this section. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

A little research from far more credible sources shows that GM is ADDING HD Radio to just as many models as they're dropping. Why would they do that?

I also noticed from your link that they're taking out the headrest entertainment system from the Traverse. However, I doubt this means the end of backseat entertainment options is near.
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post #77 of 115 Old 07-08-2015, 11:02 AM
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I've done this many times over the years. Only one station didn't fix it within a day.
I did it MONDAY. WWJ and WWJ-HD were off by about 7 seconds. I was in the parking lot. By the time I got to the newsroom alarms were already going off and an engineer was running to fix it. By the time I got back out to the parking lot and a mile down the interstate, it was fixed.
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post #78 of 115 Old 07-08-2015, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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WIII has the worst delay around here. That's the main one I was referring to. Interesting thing is that for a while it wasn't as bad, in fact it was the HD signal that was just slightly behind, but now it's back to being way ahead. I'm guessing they're aware of it but being a C-grade station they don't care that much. It actually makes me switch it off their station because it can be very annoying. Rochester stations have perfect timing, one other in the Finger Lakes I have seen be a little off time, but WIII is the worst offender. This is redneck car audio heaven so I'm pretty sure there's more than a few after market HD radios being frowned upon over this issue.

density of quality
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post #79 of 115 Old 09-30-2015, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by RCA Dimensia View Post
Or any market for that matter. .


Because Grace offered their wonderfull tabletop wooden Victoria, and their fab separate HiFi Tuner -and gave me a free 3rd radio for being a customer way way back in 2009! WiFi Radio has now for the last 6 or more years offered 20,000 station with near infinite variety of all musical forms, as well as Oldtime radiodramas and everthing inbetween (i.e and so its been running circles around the dead as a dodo HD radio for at least 6 year and counting).


WiFi Radio IS Radio today.


HD needs to just "go away"......................same for Over the Air Radio - Hellicom-96 act ruined it beyond rescue - and why I "turned radio off two decades ago. (and now TV (thanks RealityTV-and again TV consolidation - ruined TV, just at it ruined radio 20 yrs ago).


PBS/WiFi Radio/ YouTube are the last decent sources of media (even Netfix is dumbing down and removing their "artsy/obscure" DVD titles that they once offered - pushing their own home made crap TV series and the usual lame Hollywood blockbusters via streaming.
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post #80 of 115 Old 09-30-2015, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Bishop View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by RCA Dimensia

Yeah, the tuning delay is a nuisance, also you can't save a subchannel as a preset.
Yes I've heard a lot of analog radios that seem to have decent fidelity, but with the hd radio the difference was so great when it switched from analog to digital that I swear that in the HD units they designed the the analog tuner poorly to increase the contrast.


Years ago, when I had HDRadio in my car, it did sound better when it was digital, there's no denying that.


FM commercial radio stations compress the living sheet out of the signal to "make it loud" - so it ends up sounding like AM.


non-commercial stations - most are Classical (whats left of them post Holocostcom 96) and value dynamic range over noise, and sound pretty good via analog FM.
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post #81 of 115 Old 09-30-2015, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad Bishop View Post

- CD Player (Still??)
- MP3 capabilities
loosing the CD (one that reads mp3 files burned in CDrs) in the car is the main fear I have. All my mp3s since 2000 have been burned to CDr - in folders named by artist and subfolders album name - this is the way I like it. CDr with 10 albums encoded my me in 320 bit rate, moduler CDs are. like floppies before them.


much cheaper media than USB per bit-storage. CDrs are 10-cents each via megamediamall/meritline/shop4tech.




NEVER buy CDs/DVDs/BluRay in retail stores - the markup is insane.


anyway. I just learned that the Fiat500 next year is dropping thei simple nob-based basic radio/CD player for some dumbarsed touchscreen over-technoid bull**** -so will have to move up my car buying sooner than though - just to get a simple radio!


not to mention the slow extinction of Manual transmission. the day I can no longer get a new car with a Standard will be the day I no longer buy a new car.


I loathe Automatics - had one (it was a free new car - so beggers can't be choosers) 15 yrs -hated driving it every single day. sad thing is she (Acura - so Honda so handled well - tight, not a boat) she would have been a blast to drive had she had a Standard to go with its great stiff suspension. but alas she did not.


so I got a REAL boat - with manual though! - and then shelled out for a DECENT set of springs/shocks/struts/ and anti-roll bar for my Yaris. and got a car that is fun to drive!


sure was a hassle though.


I rem. in the 70's and 80's most cars were run to drive - without you having to make then that way aftermarket wise. all he fun small sportscars rx7/ tr7/ x-19/Spitfire/Spider (both Fiat and AlphaRomao).................etc...........all long gone.


now all we have are boring barges ;-(.
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post #82 of 115 Old 09-30-2015, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by zoreo View Post
I have not seen anyone mentioned the interference HD-radio does to other stations. The HD signal is carried on sidebands that intrude onto the adjacent channel of other stations. There are many stations I can no longer hear because the HD-sidebands of local stations now cover these stations with incessant "hiss".

There was a time when the FCC would not allow a station to do anything that interfered with the reception of other stations. But I guess these days money speaks loud and iBiquity got their proprietary system approved despite the damage it has done to our Broadcast industry.


not to mention the cancerous growth of all the damn Translators - mostly Christian/NPR garbage. NRP litters the whole FM spectrum simulcasting the same damn material - placed along many towers only 20 mile from each other. its ridiculous. I can pick up at least 4 NPR stations and 3 are repeaters!


they don't leave any space for Pirates so as to improve radio programing! of course NPR (like NAB) opposed LPFM too. surprise surprise!
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post #83 of 115 Old 09-30-2015, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad Bishop View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by DrDon

This only affects distant stations on adjacent frequencies, not stations in the same market. It's the mantra of the anti-HD Radio crowd. Within a market, there's no interference from HD. There's still plenty from regular analog signals as there always has been. HD notwithstanding, if you're in St Louis and you're trying to listen to a Springfield radio station, it's probably going to be knocked around by some other station. It's always been that way.


I'd also add: With internet streaming does any of this really matter? If you want to listen to a station in, say, Australia from St Louis then you can probably find it streaming on the internet.


yep. I like WDVX myself. Knoxville TN (have their own local music shows and diverse music overall (and real DJ's - not Robby Robot/HAL - that tell you what you've just heard so you can go out and buy it/google their work).
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post #84 of 115 Old 09-30-2015, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dnewhous View Post
According to the wikipedia: [URL = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AM_broadcasting] Moreover, to fit more transmitters on the MW broadcast band in the United States, maximum transmitted audio bandwidth is limited to 10.2 kHz by a National Radio Systems Committee (NRSC) standard adopted by the FCC in June 1989, resulting in a channel occupied bandwidth of 20.4 kHz. The former audio limitation was 15 kHz resulting in a channel occupied bandwidth of 30 kHz.[/URL]

that why Cathedral Radios (the big 1930's tube AM/SW radios) sound so good! ...............when they have a decent AM source.


the LPAM sstrans transmitter is one such good sounding AM source.


of course (though there are few - you have to know what models and makes they are) almost ALL AM radios today have pure crap AM tuners in them - and they cannot be made to offer quality sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnewhous View Post
Looks to me like analog AM needs to be limited to an audio bandwidth of 4 kHz.

actually FYI - AM "CAN" sound good - if you have a quality transmitter and quality receiver (.........again SStrans is one such - very impressive actually IMO).


about equal to a poorly-over compressed FM analog signal.


.................


wish fcc would just open up the whole AM band and make it and other CB - so pirates could just go wild and offer all sorts of music/programing - other than the rant-raving idicy we have on that AM band today.




AM is so wasted - been a wasteland for 30 yrs at least.
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post #85 of 115 Old 09-30-2015, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Not sure it'll die out soon unless broadcasters get tired of licensing fees. I'm noticing a lot more companies simulcasting a stream on FM subchannels. We do that and sell it. Makes enough money that there's no benefit in shutting it off. It's like TV station subchannels. Not enough people watching OTA to make it sellable.. but give that subchannel a slot on a cable system and suddenly it's worth SOMEthing, even if it's a value-added spiff for a regular advertiser.
.


FYI - since about 5 yrs ago people have been leaving CableTV and going Internet/OTA for their TV.....................this trend is continuing.


CableTV is the next HD Radio.
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post #86 of 115 Old 09-30-2015, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post

Though, when you look at percentages, streaming radio isn't mainstream, either. Not by a longshot. I have yet to meet one person who streams music in his or her car. Therefore, using your math, nobody streams in their cars.
.


maybe its a data-plan cost factor. I don't have a "real" cell phone - have no need for one. If I did and used it like a do my Grace WiFi radio here at home (using unlimited data-plan via ISP), I'd be shelling a fortune in overdata cap charges - vs- "free home internet radio even 24/7......due to "flat rate ISP internet 40 bucks a month.


I'll never have WiFi mobile - due to datacaps and my shelling out more for less via mobile.........I'll just listen to my Cdr-mp3s while in the car.
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post #87 of 115 Old 09-30-2015, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rfeir View Post
You would be surprised at how good analog Stereo FM can sound if the station does not apply any EQ or compression to music and just relies upon limiters and proper levels to avoid hitting the limiters. The station will not sound loud next to stations running typical compression. Mono FM was truly wonderful. Here in Albany, NY we have WRPI which avoids compression and sounds great. Our NPR station relies upon compression to keep it simple. The music has the life drained out of it.


yep. same with AM too...................but you have to go back 60 yrs for AM (or find an old working Tube radio and the odd quality broadcaster out there).
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post #88 of 115 Old 10-30-2015, 06:25 PM
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It hasn't take off because there nothing in it for the listener or the radio stations.
HD would require that we change every radio station and receiver in the country
-so that cell phone companies can use that bandwidth for themselves.
Look at satellite radio and you get the idea of what you would end up with.
HD radio would not mean HD quality music.
It would mean High Density.
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post #89 of 115 Old 10-30-2015, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
I did it MONDAY. WWJ and WWJ-HD were off by about 7 seconds. I was in the parking lot. By the time I got to the newsroom alarms were already going off and an engineer was running to fix it. By the time I got back out to the parking lot and a mile down the interstate, it was fixed.
I think AM HD is much more useful than FM HD, I listen to WWJ over WJR because it sounds so much better.

I keep HD enabled in my car because I like the extra information is provides like album art, even though I prefer the sound of the analog signal. At times, FM HD seems to be unreliable, even though I am only about 15 miles from the Detroit stations, occasionally HD will drop, although it is very rare, it does happen sometimes.

I've noticed times that WRIF-HD doesn't work at all, and I work in Southfield about a mile from the transmitter and it didn't work for a few days over the summer.

I'm from the Toledo area and still go back often, 94.5 WXKR used to broadcast a digital signal, but they haven't in over a year. But when they do the hourly call signs, they still still "WXKR and WXKR HD1 Port Clinton/Toledo". 94.5-2 used to the be a reapeater of 100.7 The Zone but since 94.5 doesn't broadcast HD anymore, it's moved to 105.5-2. Toledo used to have more HD stations, 99.9 WKKO used to be an HD station too but has dropped it, and doesn't advertise it anymore.
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post #90 of 115 Old 10-30-2015, 07:20 PM
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FWIW WRIF was doing tower maintence over the summer which may have affected your lock on the digital signal during business hours. Should've been okay at night.
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