Why hasn't HD radio taken off in the household market? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 115 Old 10-30-2015, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
FWIW WRIF was doing tower maintence over the summer which may have affected your lock on the digital signal during business hours. Should've been okay at night.
That must have been it. I usually only listen to it on the way to work and when not locked on to a digital signal, my car doesn't display the WRIF logo (or album art) so that's why I noticed. It's nice to have someone who knows these things, because it's not like they would advertise "our HD signal will be down on this day", because most people don't care or probably even know what that means.
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post #92 of 115 Old 10-31-2015, 08:26 PM
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I’ll be burned as a heretic for saying this but you really can’t hear the difference between a good FM station and HD audio while driving a car. Cars are noisy, the traffic is noisy and the roads are bumpy. No matter how good you're hearing is- you won't be able to tell a difference.

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post #93 of 115 Old 11-01-2015, 07:40 AM
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I’ll be burned as a heretic for saying this but you really can’t hear the difference between a good FM station and HD audio while driving a car. Cars are noisy, the traffic is noisy and the roads are bumpy. No matter how good you're hearing is- you won;t be able to tell a difference.
You need a newer car.

There's not a human alive with good hearing who cannot tell the difference between multiplexed and discreet stereo sound. That's like saying you can't tell the difference between an FM broadcast and a CD inside of a car. I'll bet you can. Yeah, road noise can interfere with fidelity, but it's the separation that's the big difference. Multiplexed FM gives a nice stereo effect, but it's nowhere near discreet. Digital delivery is as discreet as you can get.

I'd like to see your research on this. How many stations? How many cities? Radio setups? Vehicles involved? You've made a rather sweeping conclusion. I'd love to see what that's based on.

I've had about 20 people as passengers in three different cars. 2015 Silverado, a 2007 Cadillac and an old 2000 beat up pickup. All have HD radios. One factory. Two add-ons. Every single person could easily notice the difference the second the signal went from analog to digital. And that's at the speed limit on Michigan, Orlando and Cincinnati roads and radio stations. (the 2015 Silverado is the quietest of the 3). It has never.. NEVER failed to get a "wow." Except on FM talk stations. Not much difference there. I've also found two stations in my travels that were broadcasting in mono on both Analog and Digital when I was listening. I can't say the whole station was that way, but the particular songs I was listening to may have been dubbed into their systems in mono. It happens.

I suspect something is amiss in your setup. Or something's wrong at the stations you're using to come to this conclusion. Come to Detroit. I'll pick you up at the airport and we'll cycle through rock, country, classical and hip-hop. I'd be willing to bet a steak dinner you can't help BUT notice the difference. Even at highway speed. It's a bigger difference than going from MP3s to CDs. And if you can't tell THAT difference, then you need to see an audiologist.
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post #94 of 115 Old 11-02-2015, 06:43 AM
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I'm glad to glad that a Cadillac, driven inside a major city, gets good reception. HD radio is far less prevalent else where. I do hope we see an improvement in audio quality but remain skeptical people will pay for the difference.

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You need a newer car.
What we really need are better roads.
I'm sure that if I was I-10 driving across Texas everything would sound better
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Last edited by DrDon; 11-02-2015 at 08:09 AM. Reason: fixed formatting
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post #95 of 115 Old 11-02-2015, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by skatingrocker17 View Post
I think AM HD is much more useful than FM HD, I listen to WWJ over WJR because it sounds so much better.

I keep HD enabled in my car because I like the extra information is provides like album art, even though I prefer the sound of the analog signal. At times, FM HD seems to be unreliable, even though I am only about 15 miles from the Detroit stations, occasionally HD will drop, although it is very rare, it does happen sometimes.

I've noticed times that WRIF-HD doesn't work at all, and I work in Southfield about a mile from the transmitter and it didn't work for a few days over the summer.

I'm from the Toledo area and still go back often, 94.5 WXKR used to broadcast a digital signal, but they haven't in over a year. But when they do the hourly call signs, they still still "WXKR and WXKR HD1 Port Clinton/Toledo". 94.5-2 used to the be a reapeater of 100.7 The Zone but since 94.5 doesn't broadcast HD anymore, it's moved to 105.5-2. Toledo used to have more HD stations, 99.9 WKKO used to be an HD station too but has dropped it, and doesn't advertise it anymore.
Try listening to WXYT-AM in downtown Detroit or under highway overpasses and hear how it switches between HD and Analog mode. It is SO annoying. Not to mention the sound, while 'clean", is rife with digital sounding artifacts - like it is bit-starved.

I sure do miss C-Quam stereo - we once had about 10 stations in Metro Detroit that would be regularly received in stereo, many of them music stations.

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post #96 of 115 Old 11-02-2015, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by billmich View Post
Try listening to WXYT-AM in downtown Detroit or under highway overpasses and hear how it switches between HD and Analog mode. It is SO annoying. Not to mention the sound, while 'clean", is rife with digital sounding artifacts - like it is bit-starved.

I sure do miss C-Quam stereo - we once had about 10 stations in Metro Detroit that would be regularly received in stereo, many of them music stations.
I liked C-Quam because it allowed for distant AM Stereo listening. But with music formats fading, I didn't see the point. I did enjoy WJR's baseball games in stereo. That was nice. But listening to them on DVD's subchannel, I don't think they're even using a stereo line. The commercials and bumper music are all in mono. Ditto WWJ.

WXYT-AM does hold the lock better on 97.1 HD 3 a whole lot better. I hear artifacts on CBS Sports programming, but not on overflow games. WXYT-AM has always had a crappy signal. I remember when they first got Lions broadcasts, but you couldn't pick up the station inside the Silverdome. So they put a closed-loop AM transmitter inside and put it 10Khz off from WXYT. You could hear the game ...along with 10Khz tone.

Now, with profanity delays and digital broadcasting, listening in the stadium isn't practical.

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I'm glad to glad that a Cadillac, driven inside a major city, gets good reception. HD radio is far less prevalent else where. I do hope we see an improvement in audio quality but remain skeptical people will pay for the difference.
The old pickup kept the lock on a 18kw Detroit station almost all the way to the Flint Airport. The 2015 Silverado's radio doesn't fall back to analog until I'm at the edge of the coverage area. So, the myth about digital only working in metro areas is just that.. a myth. Just like with digital television, today's HD Radio tuners are a lot better than those from ten years ago.

Sure, people will pay for the difference. The upgraded audio is the biggest-selling option in new cars. So, while HD Radio might not be WHY they buy a better car radio, they will pay for it.

One thing I'm seeing is the displeasure with SiriusXM audio when compared to HD Radio. People never noticed how compressed XM was until they switched back and forth between XM and an digital FM channel. Night and day. That said, the general public thinks mp3s or streamed audio played on a Bluetooth speaker from a phone sound fine. So, there's no accounting for taste.

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Last edited by DrDon; 11-02-2015 at 08:13 AM.
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post #97 of 115 Old 11-02-2015, 08:11 AM
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I was referring more to 1270 AM in HD- i have nothing against FM HD radio

going through my mind, the following AM stations that could be received in much of metro detroit were stereo at some point (mostly in early-mid 90's)
not counting CKLW- 800 in stereo in the early 80's and then they never went back to it

560/630(still stereo)/760/990-ypsi/1050-a2/1070-sarnia/1130/1340/1370-toledo good signal/1600- a2
thats 10 stations

not to mention clear night-time stereo on stations such as WLS amongst many others
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post #98 of 115 Old 11-02-2015, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookshelf View Post
I’ll be burned as a heretic for saying this but you really can’t hear the difference between a good FM station and HD audio while driving a car. Cars are noisy, the traffic is noisy and the roads are bumpy. No matter how good you're hearing is- you won't be able to tell a difference.
I can tell the difference. Both analog and digital have their advantages, the signal is cleaner but on some stations you can hear the compression. It does sound better than satellite radio though.

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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
You need a newer car.

There's not a human alive with good hearing who cannot tell the difference between multiplexed and discreet stereo sound. That's like saying you can't tell the difference between an FM broadcast and a CD inside of a car. I'll bet you can. Yeah, road noise can interfere with fidelity, but it's the separation that's the big difference. Multiplexed FM gives a nice stereo effect, but it's nowhere near discreet. Digital delivery is as discreet as you can get.

I'd like to see your research on this. How many stations? How many cities? Radio setups? Vehicles involved? You've made a rather sweeping conclusion. I'd love to see what that's based on.

I've had about 20 people as passengers in three different cars. 2015 Silverado, a 2007 Cadillac and an old 2000 beat up pickup. All have HD radios. One factory. Two add-ons. Every single person could easily notice the difference the second the signal went from analog to digital. And that's at the speed limit on Michigan, Orlando and Cincinnati roads and radio stations. (the 2015 Silverado is the quietest of the 3). It has never.. NEVER failed to get a "wow." Except on FM talk stations. Not much difference there. I've also found two stations in my travels that were broadcasting in mono on both Analog and Digital when I was listening. I can't say the whole station was that way, but the particular songs I was listening to may have been dubbed into their systems in mono. It happens.

I suspect something is amiss in your setup. Or something's wrong at the stations you're using to come to this conclusion. Come to Detroit. I'll pick you up at the airport and we'll cycle through rock, country, classical and hip-hop. I'd be willing to bet a steak dinner you can't help BUT notice the difference. Even at highway speed. It's a bigger difference than going from MP3s to CDs. And if you can't tell THAT difference, then you need to see an audiologist.
I have a 2015 Audi with the Bang & Olufsen sound system, but have had many other vehicles with HD radios (Buick Lacrosse, Chevy Silverado 1500, Ram 1500, Durango), and have been able to tell the difference in all of them, in all the places I've lived (Wood County, Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, and now in Canton). I will say that some stations do sound better than others. But radio is radio, not lossless audio files.

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Originally Posted by billmich View Post
Try listening to WXYT-AM in downtown Detroit or under highway overpasses and hear how it switches between HD and Analog mode. It is SO annoying. Not to mention the sound, while 'clean", is rife with digital sounding artifacts - like it is bit-starved.

I sure do miss C-Quam stereo - we once had about 10 stations in Metro Detroit that would be regularly received in stereo, many of them music stations.
That's strange, I don't go downtown too often I only ever enter the city limits when I'm on Telegraph or 96, sometimes the Southfield freeway but haven't had any issues. I'm from southern Wood County, Ohio and am able to listen to WWJ-HD all the way there, day or night. No issues, except for the occasional dropout. As for FM, it's hard to get any stable Detroit area stations to lock on to HD beyond Monroe. Some stations like WOMC and WRIF will work about 50 miles into Ohio on 75.

CIMX is the most stable, that signal travels pretty far. But when I listen to it I can hear a faint hiss in the background, even when I'm in different cars or at home.
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post #99 of 115 Old 11-02-2015, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
You need a newer car.

There's not a human alive with good hearing who cannot tell the difference between multiplexed and discreet stereo sound. That's like saying you can't tell the difference between an FM broadcast and a CD inside of a car. I'll bet you can. Yeah, road noise can interfere with fidelity, but it's the separation that's the big difference. Multiplexed FM gives a nice stereo effect, but it's nowhere near discreet. Digital delivery is as discreet as you can get.
Poorly chose words on my part. I should have said, “won’t” notice the difference. Similar to how viewer “can” see the difference between HD and regular broadcast TV-but a few seconds into the game they forget about the signal quality and start cursing the coach. Content is king.
PS- I’ll love to have high quality radio all across the country But I won’t hold my breath.

Last edited by DrDon; 11-08-2015 at 08:55 PM. Reason: formatting
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post #100 of 115 Old 11-03-2015, 05:30 AM
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Listen to WWJ in analog or on 97.1-2
take off that awful HD on AM
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Hybrid was OK for a few years to switch over with, but this is ludicrous, now we are stuck in limbo forever, DAMIT change to all digital and end the dam misery. God I don't understand this long unending process of bs. Stop the Insanity! Be done with it, now!
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post #102 of 115 Old 03-30-2016, 09:33 AM
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It's too impractical. Unlike televisions, radios aren't connected to cable providers who, to this date, still supply subscribers with service for analog displays. Unlike televisions, radio's predominant audience is mobile. That's a lot of converters someone's going to have to pay for. Not to mention the installation. I would imagine most drivers would simply plug in their phones and be done with it.

Since there's not enough spectrum being used by radio to be of much value to the government, they'd have no motive to underwrite the conversion from analog to digital. Forcing broadcasters to go digital without replacing existing radios would drive the broadcasters out of business. The advertising-supported model of broadcasting depends heavily on a mass audience. One that would be halved (or worse) with a forced conversion.

So, you can forget that notion.

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post #103 of 115 Old 03-31-2016, 06:41 AM
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The range of an analog signal is also much further. You can receive an FM station in analog far beyond after the digital signal drops out. I don't know if the digital signal would increase if the analog signal were gone, but with digital it's all or nothing. But you can still listen to a weak FM signal.
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post #104 of 115 Old 03-31-2016, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skatingrocker17 View Post
The range of an analog signal is also much further. You can receive an FM station in analog far beyond after the digital signal drops out. I don't know if the digital signal would increase if the analog signal were gone, but with digital it's all or nothing. But you can still listen to a weak FM signal.
Digital signal strength is a weaker signal as compared to analog. If the radio stations would increase the signal strength to that of analog, overall reception would be so much better. It is very annoying when you constantly get drop outs, especially if listening to an HD2 or HD3 feed!
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post #105 of 115 Old 04-02-2016, 03:33 PM
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One thing I've noticed with new AV receivers, if you want an HD Radio tuner, you have to purchase their very top-of-the-line model (or close to it) in order to get the HD Radio feature.

I don't agree. It should be included in the lower line models as well.
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post #106 of 115 Old 04-02-2016, 10:39 PM
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One thing I've noticed with new AV receivers, if you want an HD Radio tuner, you have to purchase their very top-of-the-line model (or close to it) in order to get the HD Radio feature.

I don't agree. It should be included in the lower line models as well.
Couldn't agree more. A few years ago, I bought an Onkyo TX-NR608, largely because of its HD Radio capabilities. Now, the same model doesn't have that anymore. I killed that AVR (unintentionally), and in looking for a replacement, I didn't find a model that had that. Their response was simply to use the NET tuner. So frustrating.

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post #107 of 115 Old 04-03-2016, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billmich
Listen to WWJ in analog or on 97.1-2
take off that awful HD on AM
 
Indeed......It messes up the AM freqs,especially @ night for what maybe 5 bloody listeners??
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post #108 of 115 Old 04-03-2016, 12:52 PM
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Indeed......It messes up the AM freqs,especially @ night for what maybe 5 bloody listeners??
...who SHOULD be supporting their OWN local stations instead of trying to pick up stations 3 states away. My whole point about that is if you really want to listen to a station 3 states away at midnight, stream them.
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post #109 of 115 Old 04-04-2016, 07:15 AM
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...who SHOULD be supporting their OWN local stations instead of trying to pick up stations 3 states away. My whole point about that is if you really want to listen to a station 3 states away at midnight, stream them.
The FCC has not mandated what stations people "SHOULD" be listening to......

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post #110 of 115 Old 04-10-2016, 06:20 PM
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"Why hasn't HD radio taken off in the household market?"

A $300 price tag for a good tuner with optical output doesn't help.

CIAO!

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post #111 of 115 Old 05-06-2016, 09:39 AM
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After all these years my friends still don't know what HD Radio is, even the few that still listen to the radio.

I say "no commercials" and they still say, "Oh, yeah, satellite radio."

When I say "no commercials and costs nothing" they think I'm stealing the service somehow.

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post #112 of 115 Old 05-06-2016, 02:08 PM
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After all these years my friends still don't know what HD Radio is, even the few that still listen to the radio.

I say "no commercials" and they still say, "Oh, yeah, satellite radio."

When I say "no commercials and costs nothing" they think I'm stealing the service somehow.
Besides most people still not knowing what HD Radio is, the digital signal strength is still too weak from radio stations for a reliable signal. I use HD Radio within my house from New York or Philadelphia, and being centrally located between both cities I have a hard time picking up the digital signal reliably. FYI - I am using a large outdoor Winegard FM antenna for picking up stations from both directions with a rotor on the mast.
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Originally Posted by trailblazer View Post
Besides most people still not knowing what HD Radio is, the digital signal strength is still too weak from radio stations for a reliable signal.
I rarely have that problem. I have run marathons in several cities with my Insignia listening only to HD-2 stations and have rarely had dropouts. It uses the headphone cord as the antenna. In most cities I've run the whole thing without a single dropout.

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post #114 of 115 Old 05-07-2016, 03:24 PM
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I rarely have that problem. I have run marathons in several cities with my Insignia listening only to HD-2 stations and have rarely had dropouts. It uses the headphone cord as the antenna. In most cities I've run the whole thing without a single dropout.
Within city limits, the HD signal is strong enough. Its when you get into the burb's, the digital signal becomes weaker the further you get from the transmitter vs an analog signal. Thus at my distance of 45 to 50 miles form Philly or NY transmitters, the digital signal gets to be very difficult to maintain a constant signal without breakup.
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Within city limits, the HD signal is strong enough. Its when you get into the burb's, the digital signal becomes weaker the further you get from the transmitter vs an analog signal. Thus at my distance of 45 to 50 miles form Philly or NY transmitters, the digital signal gets to be very difficult to maintain a constant signal without breakup.
Yeah, 40-50 miles is long distance away.

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