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post #1 of 41 Old 01-27-2015, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Detroit, MI - HD Reception Thread

I have it on good authority that 910 WFDF - Now a religious station since the Disney sale - will return to digital broadcasting, though I have no idea when. EDIT: It's up as of 5/1

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post #2 of 41 Old 02-03-2015, 11:16 AM
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Doc,

I can only get 950 and 1270 in HD, is 1130 in HD? I have not seen them light up my HD light in 2+ years and they have 50K day to cover me in Westland

Did 1200 drop HD, now that their programming is on FM via translator/sub-channel?

In Westland I still have never gotten religious 560 or 1340 to bump into HD mode
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post #3 of 41 Old 02-03-2015, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll have to remember to check next time I'm in the truck with some time to kill. I don't vary much off of our two stations on AM, so I haven't just sat and scanned since I first got the truck. WRDT worked last time I tried. I will say the tuner sensitivity of the GM radio isn't what I had with the Visteon sidecar device. I could get that bad boy to give an HD lock on to KMOX, St Louis and WTVN Columbus, OH pre-sunrise.

Can't do much with AM in my office. Waaay too much interference from all the other gadgets . I've debated building a decent loop antenna, but with both WWJ and WXYT-AM available on WXYT-FM subchannels, I haven't found a need beyond DXing. And if I had time to DX, I'd also have time to fool with my ham gear, which sits in a box gathering dust.

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post #4 of 41 Old 02-03-2015, 12:13 PM
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the only AM HD tuner I have is my AVR receiver, and I have to shut my plasma off and I am vey limited with the loop antenna on alignment.

I was in my father's car a while back listening to 1270, we were travelling from downtown Detroit to Grosse Pointe and the HD was constantly bumping in and out was very annoying, and I have a VERY high tolerance for such things like DXing and AM stereo

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post #5 of 41 Old 02-03-2015, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Time of day? 1270 holds well daytime for me, but it's all over the map when they change to night pattern. One look at the night pattern and it's pretty clear why. 9 towers of fun. http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat...atus=L&hours=N

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post #6 of 41 Old 02-03-2015, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Time of day? 1270 holds well daytime for me, but it's all over the map when they change to night pattern. One look at the night pattern and it's pretty clear why. 9 towers of fun. http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat...atus=L&hours=N
4 pm during the summer, i think the taller building and transmission lines were bumping the HD off and on...it was very annoying to the point of wanting to shut it down
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post #7 of 41 Old 02-09-2015, 10:40 AM
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I take it that 560 is HD day, but not at night?

I had a chance to be in my fathers car around 6 pm last night that has full HD radio (Grosse Pointe Farms)

no HD for 1200 or 1130 at all

560's HD went away when they started their nighttime operations. Now I thought that c-quam stereo stations like CFCO would come in stereo on HD radios, with L and R reversed, I listened for about 5 minutes and that never happened.

even IN GP 1270 wouldn't reliably lock into HD on their night pattern, and neither would 1340, but we were obviously on critical hours.

with both 950 and 1270 available as digital subchannels, i don't see the need for AM HD,

i was not moving, just in a driveway, I bet the constant in and out of HD to analog must be very annoying
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post #8 of 41 Old 02-09-2015, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I did finally get around to testing and got the same results as you. Don't know about WRDT at night. I'd have to remember to check on the way in. (Which is difficult in that I pretty much need to hear everything WWJ has during my 20-minute trek)

Not sure every AM radio has both HD and C-Quam. I know my Visteon did.

HD on AM falls back to analog if the HD doesn't lock. Any issue on WXYT-HD2 and it just goes completely away until it can get a lock or falls back to WXYT-FM (depending on the radio). From what they tell me over at J, a number of listeners have "discovered" the HD on AM, but not a lot of comment on WXYT-HD2. Also, HD on the AM makes the Michigan games sound a whole lot better. Can't get those on the FM sub because WXYT-HD2 remains all news during games, as does the stream.

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post #9 of 41 Old 02-09-2015, 02:54 PM
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Our friend Art said the Michigan FOOTball games go on the -3 subchannel - probably not hoops though

with respect to 560, i am wondering if changing the antenna location from monroe to royal ghetto township changes anything?

I am not saying that the radio is both HD and am stereo, just that i thought i heard before that c-quam signal will actually trip the HD circuitry (with the l and r channels reversed)
or it quite possibly be that HD AM stations can be listened to on an am stereo tuner (again, i distinctly remember that they said the l and r channels are reversed)

edit: check this link out:

http://www.amstereo.org/radios.htm
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post #10 of 41 Old 02-12-2015, 06:37 AM
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I called 1200, their engineer said they shut HD off a year ago and I was the first person to call in asking where it went

during their smooth jazz, it did sound much better in AM HD than on a bit -starved FM HD subchannel.
and their FM translator broadcasts that bit-starved subchannel.


I was at our friend Art's place and he has a boston acoustics table top HD tuner, and when i tuned into CFCO, it was TRYING to get that (non-existent) HD signal, so maybe there is truth about it happening, Novi is kinda far from Chatham ONT...in addition, Art says that Michigan football and basketball are on the 97.1-2 subchannel and streamed as well and that WWJ doesnt do the newscasts during these games so that 5 people can listen on the internet/HD radio....

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post #11 of 41 Old 02-12-2015, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I called 1200, their engineer said they shut HD off a year ago and I was the first person to call in asking where it went
Not surprising. Nobody EVER calls. They just tune somewhere else. Oldies FM I worked for years ago had the Left and Right flipped... for five years. FINALLY one person called. The program line flip was made before the STL and whomever installed the off-air monitors had accidentally flipped THOSE, so the meters looked fine and the sound was correct in the studio.

When WWJ was in the "old" building, I could distinctly hear reporters taping voicers during the CBS network news. It was REALLY buried, but it was there. Nobody had ever brought that up, before, but after it was fixed, a number of people said, "Yeah, I heard that, too." Again, nobody called.

But, God forbid, I forget to turn off a microphone and my phone lights up like a Christmas tree!

Quote:
Art says that Michigan football and basketball are on the 97.1-2 subchannel and streamed as well and that WWJ doesnt do the newscasts during these games so that 5 people can listen on the internet/HD radio....
That may have changed between the time my Visteon bit the dust and I got my new truck. I know LAST season when the games were on, I'd flip over to 97.1HD2 and the news was still going. I'll ask.

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post #12 of 41 Old 02-16-2015, 12:28 PM
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1270 LOUD and clear in HD for me last night, obviously not as strong as 950, but it held the HD lock.

Methinks the frigid temps and snow covered ground has a lot to so with that. Although I have eliminated some electronic noise sources by my receiver as well. Many other stations that are "iffy at best" (like 1050-ann arbor) were actually quite solid and clear as well
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post #13 of 41 Old 03-13-2015, 01:27 PM
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i haven't had 910 trip the HD yet- last check about a week ago, any official word?

I am now staunchly in the anti-HD camp , especially at night :|
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post #14 of 41 Old 03-15-2015, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Nothing official. Don't think it'll ever be "official." It'll just be one of those things they "get around to" doing.

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post #15 of 41 Old 03-19-2015, 08:35 AM
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I hope they never do....
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post #16 of 41 Old 05-01-2015, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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HD is back up on 910, though the analog delay isn't in, yet, so it "jumps back" a few seconds when it locks in. I'm sure that'll be fixed soon.

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post #17 of 41 Old 05-16-2015, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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UPDATE: The analog delay is working, now. Sounds just as clean as I remember it from the Disney days, though the television-simulcast program material doesn't have quite the fidelity Radio Disney did.

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post #18 of 41 Old 05-18-2015, 11:38 AM
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I am very unhappy to hear this............

basically just hash from about 890-980 am at night.

However, unlike the 4 other AM HD stations, this one is NOT carried by a translator or FM subchannel
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post #19 of 41 Old 11-22-2015, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like you'll NEED an HD Radio to hear the Lions with any kind of fidelity from now on:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...-wjr/76090238/

WJR isn't HD, but it's available on WDVD HD2, IIRC.

Inside the radio community, there's a good deal of speculation that either DVD or Nash will carry some or all of the games. All of the teams have been demanding FM carriage as part of their contracts, lately. For the Lions not to have a deal that includes FM carriage is unusual.

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post #20 of 41 Old 11-23-2015, 07:50 AM
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Looks like you'll NEED an HD Radio to hear the Lions with any kind of fidelity from now on:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...-wjr/76090238/

WJR isn't HD, but it's available on WDVD HD2, IIRC.
correct, and their top of the hour FM-HD2 ID is laughably fast and muffled as if they are embarrassed by it
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post #21 of 41 Old 11-23-2015, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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correct, and their top of the hour FM-HD2 ID is laughably fast and muffled as if they are embarrassed by it
Embarrassed? They wouldn't have put WJR back on an FM subchannel were that the case. More likely, it's so the ID doesn't step on something. It's most likely fired by a timer, so there's no guarantee what it's on top of. Over and quick is the best thing to do. Same at WWJ, where the WXYT-HD2 legal ID is timed so it lands between the actual ID and the CBS news sounder. Hard to set since, by nature of the digital audio chain, WWJ and WXYT-HD2 are not in sync. I've heard it step on the end of a tease, over the WWJ-ID and, when the talent decides to do a top-of-the-hour time check, it buries that.

WXYT-HD3 can be even funnier during live events as - out of nowhere - the ID will play since it it's set for the top of the hour. Might have fixed that by now.

That's not to say some IDs aren't out of embarrassment. Hundreds of FM stations have monikers that don't match their call letters. K95FM in Tulsa - a country station - still has it's 40-year-old easy listening call letters. The word "queen" doesn't fit the format, so "KWEN, Tulsa" gets said very quickly near the top of the hour.

And you have stations not licensed to the cities they target. In some cases, they like to bury that. When I worked in Pittsburgh, listeners thought we had a frog croaking between "WRRK" and "Pittsburgh." Is was a very quick and subdued "Braddock," which was the city of license.

One station I worked for had one stereo cart machine set up downstream from the audio chain so one ID played on one station from the left track while the other ID played on the other one.

And another company I worked for bought a second station in a city not terribly far away. Too cheap to buy new jingles, they had the fastest-speaking guy on staff cram the new station's ID over the jingle. Thing is, it wasn't legal.
sung:Kay Tee Oh Double-Youuuuu
spoken: Andkaygeeohdoubleyou
sung: Sand Spriiiinnnnggggsssss
spoken: Andbrokenarrow."

There was a legend that this station once used the rail line that ran between the studio and transmitter as a backup program line path when the main STL failed. The engineer who told me the story said it sounded better over the rails. No idea if that was true or not.
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post #22 of 41 Old 11-23-2015, 10:12 AM
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Embarrassed meaning , clearly stating it might confuse the branding.

Listen to 760 am at the top of the hour and hear how they rip through the HD TOH announcement so quickly, then slowly and loudly SEVEN - SIXTY; DOUBLEYOU-JAY-ARE

I love your war stories
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post #23 of 41 Old 11-23-2015, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Embarrassed meaning , clearly stating it might confuse the branding.

Listen to 760 am at the top of the hour and hear how they rip through the HD TOH announcement so quickly, then slowly and loudly SEVEN - SIXTY; DOUBLEYOU-JAY-ARE

I love your war stories
I get where you're going. If only they could call WDVD-HD2 "WJR-FM" they'd be much more bold about it. Very much correct. With electronic ratings measuring, I can't see the need for antiquated ID rules. So long as the main IDs, the subs shouldn't need to. The signal sources have been identified. Muzak never had to run a station ID. Nor talking books. Can you imagine that? "KMRJ Subcarrier One, Pittsburg." Dentist offices would have been livid back then. Hell, we got enough complaints when the overnight guy would let the tapes run out. Who listens to Muzak at 2AM? But I digress.

I have subcarrier stories, too.

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post #24 of 41 Old 11-23-2015, 12:51 PM
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I get where you're going. If only they could call WDVD-HD2 "WJR-FM" they'd be much more bold about it. Very much correct. With electronic ratings measuring, I can't see the need for antiquated ID rules. So long as the main IDs, the subs shouldn't need to. The signal sources have been identified. Muzak never had to run a station ID. Nor talking books. Can you imagine that? "KMRJ Subcarrier One, Pittsburg." Dentist offices would have been livid back then. Hell, we got enough complaints when the overnight guy would let the tapes run out. Who listens to Muzak at 2AM? But I digress.

I have subcarrier stories, too.
sub carrier this stuff between like 69 and 82 MHz?
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post #25 of 41 Old 11-23-2015, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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sub carrier this stuff between like 69 and 82 MHz?
Pretty much.

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post #26 of 41 Old 11-28-2015, 06:07 AM
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Michigan football

I wish Michigan football would move back to FM (or at least have a simulcast partner on FM). I loved it when WOMC carried the games.

950 WWJ's lousy 5 kHz analog bandwidth makes the games sound putrid.

Sister station WBBM 780 in Chicago uses an 8 kHz filter, still has plenty of "room" to accommodate IBOC HD transmission, and as a result, the analog broadcast sounds sooooooo much better!!!

WWJ's analog audio sounded glorious before CBS made the decision made the decision to squeeze the bejeezus out of everything to accommodate an IBOC stream that I presume relatively few people enjoy. Oh well, at least they sound nowhere nearly as bad as 1270 WXYT, where I get to enjoy a "whooooooosh" noise and low audio levels when tuned into the station on a wideband analog receiver. (I hope 1270 is enjoying their 0.2 share in the ratings.)

Lions football (aside from the Lions-esque miscues on the field) should sound decent on WJR, but only if you are using a wideband receiver. Unlike WWJ, WJR has decided not to degrade its analog fidelity by suffocating the bandwidth life out of it. Of course, so many radios - especially car radios - limit analog AM bandwidth to 5 kHz or less these days, so many folks have no way of knowing the difference. For some, 5 kHz would seem like a massive improvement. I've driven Hyundai rental cars where AM analog bandwidth is indescribably poor!!! If I had to hazard a guess, I'd estimate the dynamic range of those receivers at 2 kHz.

I do agree, though, that an FM simulcast would be useful, especially for a station such as 93.1 that needs something to drive "cume" to the station. AM stations are difficult if not impossible to pick up inside many commercial buildings, especially industrial buildings and high rises (if your radio is not near a window).

Oh, regarding 560 WRDT, it would be a technical impossibility to transmit IBOC from their nighttime site. Licensed analog power from Royal Oak Twp is only 13 or 14 watts. On the AM band, the wattage of the digital signal is limited to 1% of the licensed level.

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post #27 of 41 Old 11-28-2015, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Michigan football IS on FM. WXYT-HD2. Or you can listen to WWJ's AM HD signal. You spent money on a wideband AM receiver which are fewer in number than HD receivers. Drop some dough on an HD radio. If not HD, then SXM. The games are on there, though the bitrate is pretty bad. But if fidelity is your goal, then go where the fidelity you seek is.

FWIW, the Lions were looking for a 24-hour HD subchannel for game replays and exclusive content. Not sure that's in their Cumulus deal or not.

And I'm not sure WJR will sound any better since they'll probably use the same G.722 ISDN line for the backhaul. I do miss listening to their baseball games in AM Stereo back in the day. Surprised nobody does stereo from the booth, anymore.

But I'd almost bet Lions games will get a simulcast on either DVD or Nash.

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post #28 of 41 Old 11-30-2015, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
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I wish Michigan football would move back to FM (or at least have a simulcast partner on FM). I loved it when WOMC carried the games.

950 WWJ's lousy 5 kHz analog bandwidth makes the games sound putrid.

Sister station WBBM 780 in Chicago uses an 8 kHz filter, still has plenty of "room" to accommodate IBOC HD transmission, and as a result, the analog broadcast sounds sooooooo much better!!!

WWJ's analog audio sounded glorious before CBS made the decision made the decision to squeeze the bejeezus out of everything to accommodate an IBOC stream that I presume relatively few people enjoy. Oh well, at least they sound nowhere nearly as bad as 1270 WXYT, where I get to enjoy a "whooooooosh" noise and low audio levels when tuned into the station on a wideband analog receiver. (I hope 1270 is enjoying their 0.2 share in the ratings.)

Lions football (aside from the Lions-esque miscues on the field) should sound decent on WJR, but only if you are using a wideband receiver. Unlike WWJ, WJR has decided not to degrade its analog fidelity by suffocating the bandwidth life out of it. Of course, so many radios - especially car radios - limit analog AM bandwidth to 5 kHz or less these days, so many folks have no way of knowing the difference. For some, 5 kHz would seem like a massive improvement. I've driven Hyundai rental cars where AM analog bandwidth is indescribably poor!!! If I had to hazard a guess, I'd estimate the dynamic range of those receivers at 2 kHz.

I do agree, though, that an FM simulcast would be useful, especially for a station such as 93.1 that needs something to drive "cume" to the station. AM stations are difficult if not impossible to pick up inside many commercial buildings, especially industrial buildings and high rises (if your radio is not near a window).

Oh, regarding 560 WRDT, it would be a technical impossibility to transmit IBOC from their nighttime site. Licensed analog power from Royal Oak Twp is only 13 or 14 watts. On the AM band, the wattage of the digital signal is limited to 1% of the licensed level.
MW,

I am a lurker on your board (Buzz), Thank you for all you do to keep that up and running.
I had an account there once about a year ago, and maybe only posted 2-3 times before I couldn't log in again.

I hope you have a great holiday season
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post #29 of 41 Old 11-30-2015, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MWmetalhead View Post
Oh, regarding 560 WRDT, it would be a technical impossibility to transmit IBOC from their nighttime site. Licensed analog power from Royal Oak Twp is only 13 or 14 watts. On the AM band, the wattage of the digital signal is limited to 1% of the licensed level.
So WWJ and WXYT are only at 500 watts digital?...that seems puny,
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post #30 of 41 Old 11-30-2015, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Michigan football IS on FM. WXYT-HD2. Or you can listen to WWJ's AM HD signal. You spent money on a wideband AM receiver which are fewer in number than HD receivers. Drop some dough on an HD radio. If not HD, then SXM. The games are on there, though the bitrate is pretty bad. But if fidelity is your goal, then go where the fidelity you seek is.

FWIW, the Lions were looking for a 24-hour HD subchannel for game replays and exclusive content. Not sure that's in their Cumulus deal or not.

And I'm not sure WJR will sound any better since they'll probably use the same G.722 ISDN line for the backhaul. I do miss listening to their baseball games in AM Stereo back in the day. Surprised nobody does stereo from the booth, anymore.

But I'd almost bet Lions games will get a simulcast on either DVD or Nash.
When baseball was predominately on 1-A clears, even skywave reception of AM stereo would provide a very immersive stereo effect ...(back in the day...sigh)
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