late night thoughts about DIY vs Comercial - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 12:18 PM
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I looked at the ED a7 450 for an example. They sell the parts for this sub individually. It doesn't say what size its ports are but there are three of them.

Driver 190v2 195.00

Amp Lt1300 350.00

Say $100 for ports?
$100 for a couple sheets of mdf and some bedliner.

Assuming you have the tools, which of course is the big variable, you could duplicate Eds sub and save $500.00 or roughly the cost of an MFW 15 before shipping. IMO the most time consuming process, finishing, is minimized by the bedliner finish . You don't need a perfect box for it to look ok.

The good (?) part of diy is that it becomes addicting so that the cost of the tools gets amortized over many projects.
Personally ,I have used the tools and knowledge I gained from building a sub in projects around the house that I wouldn't have done before. Thats the ultimate WAF

I think that if you are a person only looking to spend 300 to 600 on a sub in the first place, its kind of hard to beat off the shelf products.

Not too many people in here would be satisfied with one a5 350 or a PB12
or even an MFW though.

There's pros and cons to both approaches, its really up to the individual to decide whats right for them. If we were really so intent on saving money like some seem to be, I think a hobby other than audio might be in order.
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post #32 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 12:27 PM
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Another excellent example.

There is no question that price point is important. The more expensive the sub the more potential for savings in DIY.

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post #33 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 12:32 PM
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Sorry penngray, but a TC2000 in a decent size ported enclosure is every bit as good as the SVS PB13, albeit with a bigger enclosure. I am not a big fan of craigs list (I don't question his bias at all btw) I am sure even craig will tell you that it oversimplifies things. If you really are that interested in his list though, you will see that the PB13 vastly outstrips the MFW. We can design 15" sub in a smaller ported enclosure with small plate amp that will perform very similar to the MFW, however, a TC2000 is more in league with the driver that will be used in the BMF, not the MFW.
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post #34 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


If you really are that interested in his list though, you will see that the PB13 vastly outstrips the MFW.

Dont know what that means to the discussion on how commerical subs have come way down in $$$ and have incredible performance too the point where they can compete against DIY subs. I love the PB13, I just wont spend $1400 so you are saying just build a DIY sub that is equal to it for half the price? I always agreed with that but Craig built the DIY sub and it didnt come close (was that his fault? was it a bad build?)

Quote:


I am sure even craig will tell you that it oversimplifies things.

I love the ranking list ( I have followed it since the start), its clean and it has taken lots of time to create. He is the only guy to take on so many subs and do a non-bias and honest test without compensation. Simplified?? Maybe but oversimplifying works in the long run for most people. Especially me Sometimes we get caught up in it all and tend to let bias take over.


Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 Duals: 109 points (56-53) (note, duals were tested as duals are offered as a package)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)

That list does show the $599 sub competes with the big boys, you say the PB13 VASTLY outperforms it....109 vs 103 is a HUGE difference? and the duals matched the PB13 ($1499 vs $999).

Build a $600 DIY sub and look at the chart, then look at the $600 comerical chart are they that much different? I must be missing something on the charts. Is it splitting hairs or is it more?


BTW, This wasnt a thread or an insult to DIY but it seems people take it as "how dare someone talk about comercial subs vs DIY" in a DIY forum.

If I was to post this thread in the SUB forum. the posts would be 100% opposite. Kind of funny actually.

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post #35 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys, please remember you are not trying to convince me DIY is fun and great. I own 4 Q18s and 2 TC2000s 15" originals. I have 4 different pro-amps and 2 plate amps.

DIY overall (including all projects) I have spent over 50K in the past 3 years and Im DIYing my HTRoom right now.

I have DIYed since I was a kid but its always been because I save money doing it. Full house automation....20K instead of 100K. HTRoom....10K instead of 50K, IB sub system 1500 instead of 5-10K (comparable performance).

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post #36 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Dont know what that means to the discussion on how commerical subs have come way down in $$$ and have incredible performance too the point where they can compete against DIY subs. I love the PB13, I just wont spend $1400 so you are saying just build a DIY sub that is equal to it for half the price? I always agreed with that but Craig built the DIY sub and it didnt come close (was that his fault? was it a bad build?)



I love the ranking list ( I have followed it since the start), its clean and it has taken lots of time to create. He is the only guy to take on so many subs and do a non-bias and honest test without compensation. Simplified?? Maybe but oversimplifying works in the long run for most people. Especially me Sometimes we get caught up in it all and tend to let bias take over.


Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 Duals: 109 points (56-53) (note, duals were tested as duals are offered as a package)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)



Build a $600 DIY sub and look at the chart, then look at the $600 comerical chart are they that much different? I must be missing something on the charts. Is it splitting hairs or is it more?


BTW, This wasnt a thread or an insult to DIY but it seems people take it as "how dare someone talk about comercial subs vs DIY" in a DIY forum.

If I was to post this thread in the SUB forum. the posts would be 100% opposite. Kind of funny actually.

Here is my point, quit over analyzing the charts, thats it

Now, my point about the PB13 being better than the MFW was in response to the fact that you were comparing your TC2000's to MFW's, the driver in the TC2000 is far better than one in the MFW, you will NOT get the same performance from a pair of MFW's as you do from a pair of TC2000's, not even close. We have all seen craigs list no need to post it here.

Its important to note that there is a lot more knowledge on this side of the forum than the commercial area, most of us have arrived here after spending considerable time there, we are familiar with the discussions. most of the folks there are stuck deliberating in the this vs that area and someone quotes craigs list and now they are have a cut and dry answer. This is unfortunate, and I don't think craig intended for even his own list to be used like that.

I don't have a problem with discussing commercial options, I have directed people over there several times who are looking for something that they can't have in diy. I am excited about the products that AV123 and epik have launched, I will get more excited about ED when they offer more finish options than just the plain textured black ones, but for those that can take the finish they are great options. The only issue with commercial options being discussed here is that I find those topics highly underwhelming, I would say that 1 in 10 discussions here are truly interesting to me, about 1 in 50-250 over there are interesting to me
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post #37 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Dont know what that means to the discussion on how commerical subs have come way down in $$$ and have incredible performance too the point where they can compete against DIY subs. I love the PB13, I just wont spend $1400 so you are saying just build a DIY sub that is equal to it for half the price? I always agreed with that but Craig built the DIY sub and it didnt come close (was that his fault? was it a bad build?)

The reason why Craigs DIY sub got beat is it's sealed and all the other designs that beat his are ported. Look at the sealed commercial offerings. His sealed DIY beat the F113 costing twice as much. Ported will always beat out sealed in the 20-40hz area where Craig puts a lot of emphasis.

Yes, what Army is saying is one TC2k in an EBS enclosure will perform like a PB13 for very cheap since you already have the driver. One MFW will not perform like a PB13, thus your MFW-15 will not perform as well as your TC2k.

YID DIY
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post #38 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is my point, quit over analyzing the charts, thats it

Dammit, they have numbers and lines...cant stay away from the charts

Thanks for the clarification armystud, I do agree with you and sorry to repost the list, its just easier for me to discuss when its shown.

Looney, yes I know Craig is not much of a sub 20Hz guy, I have read through most of those LLT debates too

back to reality, I will now continue on with my DIY sub project

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post #39 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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This is unfortunate, and I don't think craig intended for even his own list to be used like that.

I dont know, why produce a list and a very long thread unless it has future use.

I also believe in lists, comparison charts, etc for anyone new to the world of audio (less confusion, less headaches for the newbie).

It creates a great starting point, if someone has $X and has never purchased a sub then they should use that list to start. Write down the subs under that price point then research the subs individually. Anyone buying their first sub has a heck of a time figuring anything out and now we have subs under $1K that are great performers.


All this stuff is good (IMO) no matter what.

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post #40 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post




Build a $600 DIY sub and look at the chart, then look at the $600 comerical chart are they that much different? I must be missing something on the charts. Is it splitting hairs or is it more?


BTW, This wasnt a thread or an insult to DIY but it seems people take it as "how dare someone talk about comercial subs vs DIY" in a DIY forum.

If I was to post this thread in the SUB forum. the posts would be 100% opposite. Kind of funny actually.

Your chart is grossly oversimplified. From an engineering perspective you have to compare apples to apples. The chart only shows a ranking based upon output, bandwidth and price. There isn't enough data on any of them to get a complete picture of the performance. Also... I'd take issue with your point that Craig is unbiased. There is no such thing.

I don't think anyone takes issue with you talking about commercial subs. What people are having an issue with is making inaccurate statements or over-simplying the design choices.

I'll be the first to tell someone who is trying to build a cheaper MWF-15 that they are wasting their time. But if you give me some more volume, and a little budget I can easily best everything on that list for less money. Does that make me some subwoofer genius? Nope.... its an unfair comparison because I get to use bigger boxes and pro-audio amps with massive power, both constraints that commercial subs don't have the same liberty of taking.

Hoffman's Iron Law applies to both commercial and DIY subs. If you understand it, and take advantage of the variables when your situation allows there are good reasons to DIY a sub. For the average guy looking to add some bass to his HT there are PLENTY of commercial designs and plenty of excellent choices and MOST of the time, the average guy is better off buying a commercial sub. Hell... I just bought a small Hsu sub for a friend rather than build one because its not worth my time. He is happy with the Hsu and that is all that matters.

Kevin Haskins
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post #41 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 02:49 PM
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Personally, I think the biggest breakthrough that has happened on the commercial front isn't so much because they have magically tapped a new value system, but rather, because there has been a recent shift in subwoofer sizes. SVS and HSU really started this trend and they were value leaders because of it. Now Epik subwoofers, Elemental designs and now even AV123 have really been pushing the footprint of how big commercial subs should be.
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post #42 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

Your chart is grossly oversimplified. From an engineering perspective you have to compare apples to apples. The chart only shows a ranking based upon output, bandwidth and price. There isn't enough data on any of them to get a complete picture of the performance. Also... I'd take issue with your point that Craig is unbiased. There is no such thing.

I don't think anyone takes issue with you talking about commercial subs. What people are having an issue with is making inaccurate statements or over-simplying the design choices.

I'll be the first to tell someone who is trying to build a cheaper MWF-15 that they are wasting their time. But if you give me some more volume, and a little budget I can easily best everything on that list for less money. Does that make me some subwoofer genius? Nope.... its an unfair comparison because I get to use bigger boxes and pro-audio amps with massive power, both constraints that commercial subs don't have the same liberty of taking.

Hoffman's Iron Law applies to both commercial and DIY subs. If you understand it, and take advantage of the variables when your situation allows there are good reasons to DIY a sub. For the average guy looking to add some bass to his HT there are PLENTY of commercial designs and plenty of excellent choices and MOST of the time, the average guy is better off buying a commercial sub. Hell... I just bought a small Hsu sub for a friend rather than build one because its not worth my time. He is happy with the Hsu and that is all that matters.

I fully agree with you and just what does a person want? To be happy with his latest commerical purchase/home DIY sub, or bragging rights? Hell, I don't know that much about freqs and how they react in a room but with my subs I accidently put something together that I think sounds awesome and I'm happy with it.

Bill
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post #43 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


now even AV123 have really been pushing the footprint of how big commercial subs should be.

Cant wait for their $2K sub (BMF??), it should be incredible.

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post #44 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

If you just want to re-create a small high output commercial design, I agree, DIY doesn't make as much sense if your only concern is price, just buy a the latest flavor high-output commercial sub.

The thing is all the Commercial Subs in the 300$ range are
  • not tuned below 20hz
  • use smaller drivers than a 12"
  • have a sub optimal size of cabinet
  • have a wimpy amp

You can correct a lot of that for minimal cost by building a big enclosure and a bigger/longer port.

Some of us are cheap in Dollars but rich in hours and would like to get the most from the Amp and Driver they can afford...

It's discouraging when the only threads that get any attention are the over the top money pits.... Even more so when the very people with the info that might stimulate discussion on a design plan decide it's easier to suggest a similarly priced commercial solution even if it won't meet the Users demands.

And so what if someone wants to duplicate an existing Sub. it doesn't mean they should just give in and spend 50-60% more for the same thing or less than they could have with DIY...

just an observation from someone who you'd likely recommend a commercial sub to based on that statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

Not too many people in here would be satisfied with one a5 350 or a PB12
or even an MFW though.

There's pros and cons to both approaches, its really up to the individual to decide whats right for them. If we were really so intent on saving money like some seem to be, I think a hobby other than audio might be in order.

Pretty discouraging remark honestly... I'd say a lot of the population on the AVS forums would disagree with you... Just because we don't have 600-1000-2000$ to spend on Audio doesn't mean we don't want to play too!! I refuse to change hobbies just because the select few with the knowledge are hell bent on forcing everyone to dump multiple 1000$ into their DIY project.

For some of us a MFW15 would be overkill and spending 300$ on building something that is near equal quality with some elbow grease would be an accomplishment for the builder.

Take SVS sonosubs for example.. 525$ for their cheapest model!

How many of you think you could out do that sub for less than 525$?
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post #45 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 06:38 PM
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The Craig point system is no absolute,so...there goes ...WHERE are the DIY contenders in optimal configs we DIY maniacs use them ? Sealed SDX...gimme a break. Where is the LMS-5400 with dual 18" PR's??? Where...this list while great for commercial is lacking true DIY contenders that would OUTDISPLACE the commercial several times over.

Now the ball is back into the commercial section...LOL cubed.

For $500 you get a IXL18.4 , MDF,the port (8" sonotube if you will)and the amp plate. You beat the AV123 sub in output,plus you can tune the cabinet to 15Hz ...you beat the output of the commercial sub. As for SQ the ability of the DIY builder will dictiate if you match the commercial or best it.

There is NO way the AV123 15" driver even matches the IXL18.4 in displacement...not even close. Now you define the limitations. The commercial they have decided for you.

Let me restate...the Mach 5 Audio IXL18.4 or the CSS SDX15 in the hands of a DIY maniac like me will outdo anything commercial even close to the price these go for. And to the sarcastic peeps who say BUT WHY DONT YOU SELL THEM...because they are too damn big. And we all know the commercial "customer" has even trouble witha sub as large as the Epik Conquest. I have zero issues with subs up to the 400lbs range.No longer do you have to restrict the driver so much to meet a goal,smallest size possible at the cost of deep bass performance.

The closest commercial subs to the ideal sub are IMO ...Seaton Sound,the larger Epik subs and eD. They will build a large sub ,not restricting the drivers like so many others. Still with a well designed DIY you get more for your dollar...

For most..they better stick to a good value commercial,as they cannot miss much.For me DIY from now on.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #46 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 09:02 PM
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I haven't kept up with the commercial speaker scene for a long time, but I clicked on the link for the AV123 MFW-15 and I'll be damned if that woofer doesn't look exactly like the Dayton DVC15. I mean, exactly. I have four in my theater, I should know.

I'm not saying it is, just a stunning resemblance on the exterior.
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post #47 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdche View Post

I haven't kept up with the commercial speaker scene for a long time, but I clicked on the link for the AV123 MFW-15 and I'll be damned if that woofer doesn't look exactly like the Dayton DVC15. I mean, exactly. I have four in my theater, I should know.

I'm not saying it is, just a stunning resemblance on the exterior.

I would doubt it is the same,may be close in the cosmetic department. Rather close to the driver used in the submersive(higher BL),these drivers are ~100-130 mark ,simply integrated to perfection by Mark Seaton...to extract the most in a given volume.

You can use a $200 driver(optimal vented) and best a $800 driver (sealed) in output. This is constantly demonstrated in tests done by many people around the net.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #48 of 682 Old 03-06-2008, 12:06 AM
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I just got off the phone with craig today and he is keeping the pair of MFW's in his theater, he booted all others to the garage. He was quite blown away with the sub, I have to say Mark Seaton Seems to have the midas touch with subs.
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post #49 of 682 Old 03-06-2008, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I disgree. Sealed still rules the top 10, on every list, including 'ultra low', which only goes to 20Hz (not what I would consider ultra low). I also believe that the Ultra should be averaged across all 4 of its configs for a realistic number to place on a list of averages.

It just shifts to 6 1/2 sealed to 2 1/2 ported to 1 PR in the 20-80Hz range. If that low end figure was lowered to 5Hz, DIY sealed would be alone in the top 10 subs.

I'll again point out also that the inverse square law applies less and less as you go down in frequency and room gain applies more, yielding a much larger boost proportionally to single digits the further away you sit from the subs.

Put 2-LMS 5400 18" or 2-Acoupower 15" or 2-Tumult MKII (OR...Kevin's proposed high end design >>hint<<) in a box that's smaller than the PB-13 Ultra and you have a sub that'll trounce the Ultra in every category. It will afford you infinite choices of system Q and anechoic FR including flat from 7Hz to 100Hz at prices that compete.

Bosso

Hmm, well the Tumults were what $500 apiece? So two of them would be $1000, two LMS's would be $1750 (at the back breaking prices) and Kevin's will likely be around the $1000 mark, all those options are more expensive than the PB13, the PB13 is at least ported, which none of those subs could be. The PB13 Ultra is still a powerful bargain, hard to beat with a powered DIY sub. After you factor in the cost of a box, good quality veneer like what is on the SVS a good sub EQ system, a high end driver (not two) and enough power to drive it well, you have well eclipsed the cost of the PB13, albeit with a higher performing product.
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post #50 of 682 Old 03-06-2008, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Hmm, well the Tumults were what $500 apiece? So two of them would be $1000, two LMS's would be $1750 (at the back breaking prices) and Kevin's will likely be around the $1000 mark, all those options are more expensive than the PB13, the PB13 is at least ported, which none of those subs could be. The PB13 Ultra is still a powerful bargain, hard to beat with a powered DIY sub. After you factor in the cost of a box, good quality veneer like what is on the SVS a good sub EQ system, a high end driver (not two) and enough power to drive it well, you have well eclipsed the cost of the PB13, albeit with a higher performing product.

_______________________________________________

Tumult MKII, 1X15" ported.
Same size box as the PB-13
Tuned to 18Hz
1,000 watts.

Driver:----------------------------------------$450.00
MDF, oak, paint, urethane, glue, caulk----- 175.00
Amplifier (A slew to choose from)-----------400.00
Wire, lining, port, flare, terminal------------ 35.00
Total------------------------------------------$1,060.00
_________________________________________________

Acoupower 1X15" ported.
Same size box as the PB-13
Tuned to 17.5
1500 watts

Driver----------------------------------------$875.00
MDF, oak, paint, urethane, glue caulk------175.00
Amplifier--------------------------------------500.00
Wire, lining, port, flare, terminal-------------35.00
Total----------------------------------------$1,585.00
_________________________________________________

Tumult MKII 2X15" sealed.
40% smaller box than the PB-13
L/T to 18Hz
2,400 watts

Drivers----------------------------------------$900.00
MDF, oak, paint, urethane, glue, caulk-------150.00
Amplifier----------------------------------------750.00
Wire, stuffing, terminals---------------------- 50.00
L/T --------------------------------------------- 40.00
Total-----------------------------------------$1,890.00
__________________________________________________

SVS in oak, delivered----------------------$1,700.00
__________________________________________________

The SVS cube is just that. Aesthetics are easy and offer infinite choices, as in shapes and finishes that exactly match a given space and decor. As far as the 'good sub EQ' point, I believe that one would be needed in either case. The SVS multiple tune feature is irrelevant as it only compromises performance for the sake of a gimmicky sales tool.

I could build the Tummy 1X15" ported, sell it for the same price the PB-13 asks and build the Acoupower 2X15" sealed with 3,600 watts for under $2K. Hey, wait a minute...that's what I AM doing.

But hey, what do I know?

Bosso
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post #51 of 682 Old 03-06-2008, 10:53 AM
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...even nicer summary bosso.

Are you really selling subs?

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bosso, do those DIY subs you listed blow away the PB13? plate amps or separate?

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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

bosso, do those DIY subs you listed blow away the PB13? plate amps or separate?

They would have to. You are talking 15" high excursion drivers or multiples and outboard pro amps.

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I tend to think of myself as a DIY guy with enough at his disposal that it is much easier for me to design something and build it. If we like it and it can ship it reasonably, BAM, my "DIY" sub became a commercial sub.

I find it insanely enjoyable to actually design something, cut it out, build it, and then sit and listen. I feel I'm very lucky that if I don't like something, it can just go up on a pallet of things that didn't work like I thought and just build something else.

Will I use something that we sell in my own HT? Probably the full range stuff...at least for a while...I'm not too into the designing of FR cabinets at the moment. But you can bet that I'll do something very much so not sold by us for my sub stage. Or maybe I'll just do the first of something that ends up on the site

The ability to customize something to be exactly what you want it to be will keep DIY around forever...regardless of how good the commercial offerings become. Just my 2¢

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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

bosso, do those DIY subs you listed blow away the PB13? plate amps or separate?

Hard to define 'blow away', but I think I get the question. If you look at Ilkka's list of all subs tested (any of the lists) and take the numbers of the 1X15" Tumult sealed sub and add 6dB (2X15" version), it would climb to the number 2 spot.

If the CEA averages were lowered to below 20Hz, it would be the top performer.

I use rack mount amps because no one will build a 4KW plate amp and if they did it would be too large, displace too much box volume and generate too much heat for my particular applications.

Bosso
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Hard to define 'blow away', but I think I get the question. If you look at Ilkka's list of all subs tested (any of the lists) and take the numbers of the 1X15" Tumult sealed sub and add 6dB (2X15" version), it would climb to the number 2 spot.

If the CEA averages were lowered to below 20Hz, it would be the top performer.

I use rack mount amps because no one will build a 4KW plate amp and if they did it would be too large, displace too much box volume and generate too much heat for my particular applications.

Bosso


I love when Bosso talks about Tumults Good to see your posts again


KG
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post #57 of 682 Old 03-06-2008, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

...even nicer summary bosso.

Are you really selling subs?

I've always preferred a real subwoofer system. They have to look cool, provide the bottom octaves (that everyone else eschews), be relatively small and have absolute flexibility.

That means I have to build them because no one else does.

I'm with Kevin. If someone wants a $600 sub in their system, I recommend the MFW-15 (because my buddy Seaton designed it and my buddy Schifter builds and sells them) or a HSU box.

It's certainly not that I couldn't build a $600 ported sub. I obviously just don't believe that high quality low end can be achieved at such a price level, by anyone. (Bosso's Iron Law)

Speaking of which:

Hoffman's Iron Law began as a mathematical formula that evolved into: "Small, loud, efficient, pick any 2".

Linkwitz, Class D, Class H, Class T, room gain and long throw driver technology have shattered that ancient formula.

These all allow for "Small, Loud, Efficient, pick all 3" to be included in a single system wherein the original mathematical formula has little meaning.

Heck, you can cheat the 'iron law' by stuffing some polyfill into your sealed box.

IOW, you can design a small and loud sub and increase the efficiency by upgrading to a state of the art driver, adding stuffing, L/T and a class D amp.

I've always argued that increasing the box size to increase efficiency at the bottom end is a wash because a HP filter becomes necessary to protect from mechanical failure, and chopping off a couple octaves of response is in no way 'efficient'.

Bosso
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Hard to define 'blow away', but I think I get the question. If you look at Ilkka's list of all subs tested (any of the lists) and take the numbers of the 1X15" Tumult sealed sub and add 6dB (2X15" version), it would climb to the number 2 spot.

If the CEA averages were lowered to below 20Hz, it would be the top performer.

I use rack mount amps because no one will build a 4KW plate amp and if they did it would be too large, displace too much box volume and generate too much heat for my particular applications.

Bosso

Yes, that was the descriptive answer I was looking for.

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...if they did it would be too large, displace too much box volume and generate too much heat for my particular applications.

your house must be incredible with 4000 lbs of drivers!!!

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Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

I love when Bosso talks about Tumults Good to see your posts again


KG

OR.....in the case of KG....you'd add 12dB!!

Back at ya, my friend.

Bosso
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