late night thoughts about DIY vs Comercial - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 682 Old 03-17-2008, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


5 sealed cubes loaded with 2-15" drivers is more than adequate for the average person. It's very versatile in adapting to various spaces and source material, it's much easier to transport and place, it can be used with many different power plants and offers the best in-room FR options.

It's much easier to add another 4-5 cubic foot sub than to try to place a 10 (or 12, or 20, or 30) cubic foot monster in the average HT.


Bosso

Gee where have we seen a sub like that before

And that same philosophy as well ???
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post #182 of 682 Old 03-17-2008, 01:55 PM
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Now that last post from Bosso is hard to argue.

And yes the low tuned HSU's and SVS (with one or more ports blocked) run into port noise problems(with specific material). No way around with underporting ,no matter who optimised the underported. Extension into single digits in a managable box = sealed.

Are huge boxes needed, NO. Are well deigned compact subs capable enough, YES. Why large "fridge" sized boxes, to spare any subsonic filtering and have massive output with less amp required (zero EQ boost) down to tuning.

However the monsters subs are anything but average and appeal to a minority who are willing to accomodate these dinosaurs.And be rewarded with a boatload of headroom.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #183 of 682 Old 03-17-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

Now that last post from Bosso is hard to argue.

And yes the low tuned HSU's and SVS (with one or more ports blocked) run into port noise problems(with specific material). No way around with underporting ,no matter who optimised the underported. Extension into single digits in a managable box = sealed.

Are huge boxes needed, NO. Are well deigned compact subs capable enough, YES. Why large "fridge" sized boxes, to spare any subsonic filtering and have massive output with less amp required (zero EQ boost) down to tuning.

However the monsters subs are anything but average and appeal to a minority who are willing to accomodate these dinosaurs.And be rewarded with a boatload of headroom.

Well said.

Got iSCSI?
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post #184 of 682 Old 03-17-2008, 03:44 PM
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Quote:


Well said.

You know!.. I would have to agree. Actually the Ear has been making a lot more sense lately.
Quote:


Hey... I don't care what your flavor is....sealed, ported or IB I love em all. Different strokes for different folks.

That's where my heads at. I think a good many of us really don't know what we're going to be running over the course of a year or so?

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post #185 of 682 Old 03-17-2008, 08:04 PM
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Actually, kevin, I think you are making a very smart move in the PR direction with the shiva and maelstrom, people have been looking for a way to get good performance from their ported subs with deep tunings and keep the size manageable. Soon enough, we will start seeing people start to lust over subs that are smaller, not bigger.


*BTW, check your inbox in the morning
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post #186 of 682 Old 03-17-2008, 09:16 PM
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it will be cyclical ..... the flavor of the month...

before driver advancments enclosures HAD to be large to get it done.

Then technology allowed ridicuolous amounts of bass from very small boxes..

Now the merits of efficiency and huge boxes are being discovered again..

Soon it will be back to look how many drivers I can squeez into this shoebox.

Come to think of it.... getting in the WAY BACK machine... 16 or so years ago aperiodic enclosures were the hot item in the ultra high end car audio realm. In those cases they didn't use any enclosure at all. Well not in the traditional sense.. they would strap an aperiodic membrane right over the front of the woofer. No box at all. Hows that for small.
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post #187 of 682 Old 03-17-2008, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Actually, kevin, I think you are making a very smart move in the PR direction with the shiva and maelstrom, people have been looking for a way to get good performance from their ported subs with deep tunings and keep the size manageable. Soon enough, we will start seeing people start to lust over subs that are smaller, not bigger.


*BTW, check your inbox in the morning

Ok Army, now lets get back to the DIY sub buildoff at 3.5 cubes, shall we ?
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post #188 of 682 Old 03-18-2008, 03:54 AM
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Size always matters. If you can make a sub just 25%-50% larger it gives you a fair amount of benefit. You don't need a refrig. size sub to see the advantages of building slightly larger than the average commercial sub limitation.

For a commercial offering companies probably look at the customer base as a bell curve. They know that some want them small, some medium and some large but there is a peak in the data where MOST customers can live with the size. The closer you are to that peak the more product you sell.

For DIY that is still partially true. I don't bring subs to market that take >10ft^3 cabinets because I wouldn't sell many drivers. Only a small percentage of even crazy DIYers are interested in building something that large. I aim for 5-12 cubic feet which is larger than most commercial subs but not the size of a major appliance.

For the guys in the process of building a home theater they often have plenty of space. Many are building false walls, risers and doing other room design aspects that have available space for a sub or two.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
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post #189 of 682 Old 03-18-2008, 09:29 AM
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re: woofer debates

Same debates over and over again with the same people.




There is no Holy Grail




The only way that you will find what you like is by
doing work and less speculating.



Isn't it pointless to argue on which one is better? Get off your computer and go
get some to try out.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #190 of 682 Old 03-18-2008, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


For the guys in the process of building a home theater they often have plenty of space. Many are building false walls, risers and doing other room design aspects that have available space for a sub or two.

My two 11cf boxes fit into my screen wall actually. I have framed them and Im drywalling this week so the 24x21x45 boxes will not take up any space in the room.

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post #191 of 682 Old 03-18-2008, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zamboniman View Post

Gee where have we seen a sub like that before

And that same philosophy as well ???

Seaton's Submersive, of course.

Bosso
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post #192 of 682 Old 03-18-2008, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

Size always matters. If you can make a sub just 25%-50% larger it gives you a fair amount of benefit. You don't need a refrig. size sub to see the advantages of building slightly larger than the average commercial sub limitation.

In looking at Ilkka's GP FR of the 18" LMS-5400 in 3.5 cubes sealed, it looks to be a low Q system as is, despite the fact that the Vas is nearly 18 cubic feet.

I don't see the merit in increasing box volume in this case. An increase of 25% would be negligible and could be achieved by stuffing the box. 50% might give you 1-2dB below 20Hz, but lower the Q to a point that may adversely affect your music listening, depending on your tastes. This may or may not be viewed as definitively beneficial.

OT: Hey, those Face amps look sweet. Any links to some feedback from users?

Bosso
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post #193 of 682 Old 03-18-2008, 07:56 PM
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I love my 25000 cubic foot sealed sub with 4 IXLs.

Jerry the HT Nut
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post #194 of 682 Old 03-19-2008, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

In looking at Ilkka's GP FR of the 18" LMS-5400 in 3.5 cubes sealed, it looks to be a low Q system as is, despite the fact that the Vas is nearly 18 cubic feet.

I don't see the merit in increasing box volume in this case. An increase of 25% would be negligible and could be achieved by stuffing the box. 50% might give you 1-2dB below 20Hz, but lower the Q to a point that may adversely affect your music listening, depending on your tastes. This may or may not be viewed as definitively beneficial.

OT: Hey, those Face amps look sweet. Any links to some feedback from users?

Bosso

Ok... let me re-state that. Size matters if you can design the driver from scratch. Obviously, if you are dealing with an existing driver design you’re stuck with what you have. If you’re designing from scratch though, you pick a target and design the driver around it. In that case targeting an enclosure 25-50% bigger gives you bandwidth and in general, less need for power to achieve a given SPL. There certainly is a point of diminishing return though.

In terms of the Face Audio amps there are a number of active forum participants who have bought them. If you go over to my forum and ask I'm sure you will get a response. I'm very happy with the company. The product is great and their support of customers is fantastic.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
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post #195 of 682 Old 03-19-2008, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Nut View Post

I love my 25000 cubic foot sealed sub with 4 IXLs.

Who can not love great drivers at great prices.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #196 of 682 Old 03-19-2008, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Nut View Post

I love my 25000 cubic foot sealed sub with 4 IXLs.

Gotta love dem giant sealed woofer gadgets

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #197 of 682 Old 03-20-2008, 07:32 PM
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We can powder coat this topic anyway anyone wants, talking about average needs and what's "good enough", but at the end of the day, if performance per dollar is your goal, large and ported always wins. Performance just doesn't mean louder either, it means significantly less distortion, more linear FR, deeper extension, and greater headroom. Performance does not mean a small size your wife is willing to accept. Different priorities for different people and all that jazz, just keep the facts facts and the opinions opinions.
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post #198 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Performance does not mean a small size your wife is willing to accept.


I think look and size do matter...that isnt a wife thing. I entertain people that would think Im a kid in college still if I had big ass ugly AV stuff in a room Im enterntaining. My equipment is hidden because I care more about video and sound then I do about looking at equipment.

I believe that overall sub ratings should include size. Looks, maybe not because that is purely subjective based on individual tastes.

Yes, Im building two 11 cf subs right now but Im building them right into my HT wall so I only see the TC2000 15" drivers and the port.

as the women say, size matter...but in reverse here

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post #199 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

My equipment is hidden because I care more about video and sound then I do about looking at equipment.

not saying you're right or wrong, but that quote is completely contradictory. If you place any importance at all on size or obstructiveness, which you stated you do, then you need to rearrange the words in that sentence to read "My equipment is hidden because I care more about looking at equipment then I do about video and sound."
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post #200 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 07:19 AM
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Zero is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I think look and size do matter...that isnt a wife thing.

I'm not saying looks and size don't matter to some people, but don't in any way confuse that with performance.
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post #201 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 08:09 AM
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Sealed or ported you can have huge performance,you simply need more capable drivers and more power to reach the same output goals in a sealed(since a snmaller cabinet is the rule you can have multiples).

Today I was listening to my best sealed and ported subs, both did the job and more. I could hear the wires shake inside the walls... I hope nobody in the building noticed.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #202 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero the hero View Post

not saying you're right or wrong, but that quote is completely contradictory. If you place any importance at all on size or obstructiveness, which you stated you do, then you need to rearrange the words in that sentence to read "My equipment is hidden because I care more about looking at equipment then I do about video and sound."

While sometimes this is the case, I think this was taken out of context, as getting all of the gear hidden in a home theater system isn't so much about having a clean room, it's about creating a more convincing and more exciting experience.

The most obvious case is moving all of the electronics and the blinking/glowing LEDs out of the field of view. While the advantage is some improvement to black level, getting the gear in a rack at the back of the room and out of direct view or keeping lights reflecting from the screen makes a hugely noticable improvement to the viewing and listening experience.

Contrary to what most DIYers want to admit, classic hi-fi was more about showcasing audio hardware for a visual impression. In a great dedicated theater or system, seeing the hardware only serves to constantly remind you that the pile of gear is reproducing the sound. When all of the speakers are concealed and integrated into the cosmetic of the room, the sound field is more convincing, and draws you into the picture even more.

That doesn't mean you can't build huge subs, but I'd much prefer to plan how it fits and can be concealed in the room.

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post #203 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 08:37 AM
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Size does matter. lol
Having the ability to use 1/2 the amount of drivers seems like a great idea with the LLT vs sealed, but once you put enough subs into a room to get high spl, the LLT's get really big. lol
I could not imagine trying to place (16 drivers) 15,000+ exterior dimensions, liters if LLT in an average size theater. Where 5,000 liters of sealed drivers(twice the amount of drivers) would surpass the LLT in most areas, the areas that count, to me. The ultra low frequencies, and the common null areas that seem to happen between 50hz-70hz, so that those areas can be boosted to flatten out the FR.
The sealed have a huge advantage in those areas, you would need 256 huge LLT subs to match the 32 small sealed at 5hz. lol
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post #204 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 09:28 AM
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100000watt, performance per dollar was the comment, not performance per liter. Before someone tries to go and change the game in this thread, let's look back at page 1, post #1:

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Just spent some time re-reading some of Craig's research on subs and I really think that there are some incredible low priced performers out there

Specifically three caught my eye.....

Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)

All perform as good as or better then $2000+ subs and the MFW-15 is a stunning sub with an incredible build (IMO)


SO....... if the AV123 sub is only $600 or ($1000) for two what is the incentive to build DIY any more considering 15" drivers are $250 - $300. Amps are $300+ and so on.

It seems that the performance/$$$ is back in the hands of some of the manufactures....

No comment about size was made, just performance per dollar. When you start trying to cram first class performance into economy class size, you end up spending big, big dollars. Different strokes for different folks, but clearly that was not the stated goal in the creation of this thread. And again, the answer to penngray's question is that DIY is still leaps ahead of commercial in the performance per dollar ratio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post

When all of the speakers are concealed and integrated into the cosmetic of the room, the sound field is more convincing, and draws you into the picture even more.

Again, let's keep facts facts and opinions opinions. That is clearly an opinion. A fact is that hidden, concealed speakers tend to be outperformed the vast majority of the time by standard, visible floorstanding/bookshelf speakers for significantly less money.
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post #205 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 09:54 AM
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Sealed subs need EQ ad/or room gain to get a flat freq. response in room, EBS need no EQ or room gain to be flat to tuning.

Sealed is not an end all answer,it is false. If it was the case Mark Seaton or other notable sub designers would design sealed after sealed. With ported you get the most output and no EQ boost(minor corrections) needed in the audible range that matter most.

The 5Hz mumbo jumbo importance is just that . Yes my large sealed will reproduce extreme LF with room gain(no subsonic filter)...impressive rumble,and yes this rumble adds to the realism in some great unfiltered/purist recordings.

Still the most important range is the audible 16-80Hz range in a sub. And here a ported gets you the most with the least (driver and amp). No matter how you look at it.

Cubic foot to cubic foot,a well designed sealed bests any EBS,in output and extension(per cu.ft). Here you pay for more capable drivers and amps.

There is no free lunch.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #206 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 09:58 AM
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Those 2 posts were a yawn.

Let's see if I get this right:

Looks and size don't matter, unless you dig way too big and unsightly. Performance per dollar is a newly invented criteria, which has yet to be defined. (IOW, why stop where you have? Let's just leave the caps raw MDF and leave the silo natural cardboard, eh?) Ported alignment offers deeper extension with significantly less distortion.

Prove it. And, let's attempt to be a bit more specific than 'significantly less distortion', 'deeper extension', 'price per performance', 'more linear FR', blah, blah.

I'll use 8 of THESE 18" drivers in an IB powered by THIS 240 watt plate amp.

That puts me right at $1,000.00.

Or, 16 of THESE 15" drivers in an IB, powered by the same 240 watt amp.

That puts me at $1,200.00.

Postulate away. Would I actually build such a system? No way, but your tired argument forces one to offer not-gonna-happen examples, doesn't it?

The simple fact is that no ported subwoofer has ever topped any list except the big Dynaudio quad 12", which sort of blows your price per performance gig out the window, and it still doesn't compete below 20Hz.

I know, I know...you'll show me dozens of what-ifs, projections, models and misquoted theories, but no actual proof of the goof ball claims you make. I deal in reality, which is flat in-room across the entire Dolby LFE spec, not a spec you invent for reasons that serve your agenda. That's gonna cost what it costs...period. If it comes in a small package that actually looks good, how is that a bad thing?

The real truth of your philosophy is: Cheaper is better if you don't mind a huge box, port compression, lopped off low end, steep roll off and excessive non linear distortions.

KGV quote for the day: "LLT is just a choked off IB...nuff said."

Bosso
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post #207 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

We can powder coat this topic anyway anyone wants, talking about average needs and what's "good enough", but at the end of the day, if performance per dollar is your goal, large and ported always wins. Performance just doesn't mean louder either, it means significantly less distortion, more linear FR, deeper extension, and greater headroom. Performance does not mean a small size your wife is willing to accept. Different priorities for different people and all that jazz, just keep the facts facts and the opinions opinions.

uhm.....WRONG!

are you telling me that dollar per dollar, a pair LLT's (pick your choice of driver) is gonna out do an IB?

Let's see (being EXTREMELY generous):
pair of ava18's, or RL-P18's : $400/each (shipped) : $800
12' section of 28" or 30" sonotube: $120-$150
2 sheets of MDF: $45/ea : $90
wood, paint, carpet, glue, etc, etc, etc: $100

OR

4 x 18" FI IB18: $800
or
8 x 15" FI IB15: $800
1 sheet of MDF: $45

assuming same power plant to drive both alignments, you will EASILY out-do a pair of large LLT's with the above IB build, at nearly 1/2-2/3 the cost!

and by "out-do" I'm talking much less distortion, much more linear FR, deeper extension, and greater headroom, and of course, lets not talk about the dreaded subjective "sound" factor!
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post #208 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 10:32 AM
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Lets plug all ports and seal it all up,quick !

By sealing we let the performance out ! Quick quick this thread is like a derailed train trying to go its Commercial VS DIY route...falling off a cliff.

Call the Po Lice and lets seal the deal.




ssabripo,

IB ...who can compete with IB? A few large inexpensive drivers(you do not need high BL and this in turn = no huge motor needed)...a few sheets of MDF or ply...voila! A house buzzing shaker. From the IB installs I have heard both where creating more rattle and audible artifacts than clean output. When people start building rooms to properly integrate a massive IB sub then we will have clean output. Fixing a baffle on some 2x4's if far from a stable platform for numerous large drivers. Impressive but as purist as installing drivers in a carbord box.



Now lets resume the food fight.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #209 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

ssabripo,

IB ...who can compete with IB? A few large inexpensive drivers(you do not need high BL and this in turn = no huge motor needed)...a few sheets of MDF or ply...voila! A house buzzing shaker. From the IB installs I have heard both where creating more rattle and audible artifacts than clean output. When people start building rooms to properly integrate a massive IB sub then we will have clean output. Fixing a baffle on some 2x4's if far from a stable platform for numerous large drivers. Impressive but as purist as a shaking carboard box.

whose IB did you hear? must have not been a good install.

rattle? audible artifacts?? yep, sounds like you heard a pretty amateurish IB setup. There is NOT ONE single person in here that has heard a decent IB that will have heard artifacts or rattling.
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post #210 of 682 Old 03-21-2008, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

A house buzzing shaker. From the IB installs I have heard both where creating more rattle and audible artifacts than clean output. When people start building rooms to properly integrate a massive IB sub then we will have clean output. Fixing a baffle on some 2x4's if far from a stable platform for numerous large drivers. Impressive but as purist as installing drivers in a carbord box.



Now lets resume the food fight.

Sounds like the solution is to put them in boxes and isolate them from the house! :
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