late night thoughts about DIY vs Comercial - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Just spent some time re-reading some of Craig's research on subs and I really think that there are some incredible low priced performers out there

Specifically three caught my eye.....

Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)

All perform as good as or better then $2000+ subs and the MFW-15 is a stunning sub with an incredible build (IMO)


SO....... if the AV123 sub is only $600 or ($1000) for two what is the incentive to build DIY any more considering 15" drivers are $250 - $300. Amps are $300+ and so on.

It seems that the performance/$$$ is back in the hands of some of the manufactures....

hmmm....who wants my TC2000s? so I can say screw my TC2000 build and instead I will buy two AV123 subs!!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 09:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
I don't even want to get into the whole Craig rating system.

Anyway, yes there are some much improved offerings that are price competitively.

But, there is more to DIY than just cost savings. If you are only in it to save money then it is probably not worth it. Anyone can click buy and be done with it.

It is also about the satisfaction and learning experience and enjoyement, etc. Also, it is about doing things that cannot be done by manufacturers, like end tables or built in, or IB, etc.

jpmst3 is offline  
post #3 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I did the IB thing at a cost of $1500, I love it and I doubt I can get the performance for close to the $$$ and no way can I get a better WAF on anything else.


Im building my two 15" subs and Im thinking that my costs are going to be greater then the costs of the MFW-15 and they build a better sub with performance equal to my build.
DIY mostly to me was about getting the best $$$/performance and doing something that generally isnt done (like you said). The sub prices performance have come way down (I didnt even know the $$$ drop over the past year)

Its hard to convince myself to build any 15" subs when they are online now for so cheap.


Do you think Craig's listing is bias? I think he does a very honest and great test with all the subs across the board. Its the consistency that counts. Its subjective in the end but atleast its full comparisons. Its definitely a great list to start with.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #4 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 10:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Willd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 5,647
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It is a fact that there is more value in commercial subs these days than ever before, and this will only improve. The saving money part is becoming more applicable to more expensive/truly custom sub projects that commercial subs still can't compete with or even offer a solution for (e.g., IB subs or endtable subs)..but Joe alreday mentioned that.

Penngray - You have the original TC-2000s right? I've been thinking about picking up another one, but I'd prefer one with the tall roll surround.
Willd is offline  
post #5 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I have the original TC-2000s

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #6 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 10:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
It truly is amazing how far things have come along in such a short time. It is an interesting time for this hobby...great subs have gone from obscurity to must have equipment.

jpmst3 is offline  
post #7 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
truly custom sub projects that commercial subs still can't compete with or even offer a solution for (e.g., IB subs or endtable subs)..but Joe alreday mentioned that.

I totally agree but when a comercial sub is 18x22.5x24 and has the same performance as my DIY sub is only $599 total I have to re-think my options.

That is just my situation. Building two BIG box subs is a lot of time when Im also building a theater. I get no costs savings at all from what I found tonight. Kind of a bummer

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #8 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 10:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I totally agree but when a comercial sub is 18x22.5x24 and has the same performance as my DIY sub is only $599 total I have to re-think my options.

I certainly don't blame you. DIY is fun but it takes time and money too.

If I were in the market I would definitely consider an Ultra or Conquest.

jpmst3 is offline  
post #9 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I guess I will see what I can get on ebay for my TC-2000s, with the new TC-2000s prices out there I might make a decent $$$.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #10 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 10:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I guess I will see what I can get on ebay for my TC-2000s, with the new TC-2000s prices out there I might make a decent $$$.

Another issue at hand is price point. At that price point it is tough to beat the commercial offerings.

It is when you get into the $1500+ range then it the gap begins to form and widen quickly.

But at $599 I would consider it as well.

jpmst3 is offline  
post #11 of 682 Old 03-04-2008, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Haha, ETA april for the MFW-15 subs....always a snag

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #12 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 05:34 AM
Advanced Member
 
NickTF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 556
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Some people just have different goals and requirements which is the beauty of DIY. You can build your system for what you and you alone want. To me it's not just the cost savings, but the ability to satisfy what you require out the system without having to be lead down anyone else's pathway of what they "think" you should have.

With the amount of very affordable IB drivers out there today too it's very hard to produce the output and fidelity they can in that cost range while having the approval factor of being out of the room!!! Other great drivers for ported/radiator setups as well but they are a bit spendier and you end up with large boxes in the room typically.

I loved my tc2000 woofers, but when I saw how cheap other larger diameter and higher xmax drivers were I sold them and moved into the world of IB

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
NickTF is offline  
post #13 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 06:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kgveteran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 5,706
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Necessity is the mother of invention.With commercial subs raising the bar and cost coming down I would agree, there will be more slots filled with commercial subwoofers.

The real place DIY has always filled its niche is the over the top designs with multiple driver/multiple amp/quality signal shaping devices. There is a real cash saving there.You're laying out some big cash for the investment, but the return is there.

I think DIY is the driving force.You can see all our idea's put to service.

KG


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
<Multi sub Thread


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
< Garage Audio !!!
kgveteran is online now  
post #14 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 07:14 AM
Member
 
lowarkhog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would like to see a MFW-15 vs Rythmik kit comparison.

psn: lowark

lowarkhog is offline  
post #15 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 07:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bsoko2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 4,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 56
The whole thing also depends on where your subs are and how big your space is. Yeh, to get that "perfect" bass can be expensive with a closed room and all the accesories that it takes to get it perfect (traps, etc.). I guess to really find a sub that will do it for you, look at the output charts (if they provide one) or go to Ilkka's site to see what he measured on output in a open test area: http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...rer-model.html. I think that the way he did the testing is the best way and is not subjective by any individual's hearing. To buy or build? Creation is the most satifiying thing a person can do! I took the easy route and bought.

Bill

Dual Submersive HP's


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

New HT Room -  
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

bsoko2 is offline  
post #16 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 07:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowarkhog View Post

I would like to see a MFW-15 vs Rythmik kit comparison.

If you used the ported Rythmik it might be close, other wise it would be PR vs. sealed.

jpmst3 is offline  
post #17 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:


I would like to see a MFW-15 vs Rythmik kit comparison.

Craigsub built a very nice DIY sub and its part of the big list of subs compared. He didnt do the Rythmik it though.

If you havent read the thread its a great read (very long) but the rankings and the list is very, very interesting. I love it!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #18 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:


I think DIY is the driving force.You can see all our idea's put to service.

Yes, I agree there. in 2006 when I started researching subs and what I could get there was nothing that could touch a DIY build.

But now a comercial sub that kicks ass is $599....that is cheaper then what a good DIY sub costs ($250 for a amp,$250 for driver, $50 for materials and time).

Obviously companies like AV123 are always ahead of the curve ( Simply an awesome company and Mark is a true pioneer in the cost/performance area, Check out his latest designs!!!!).


While I agree that there are cases were special needs are required (end table, IB and so on). The general idea that a basic DIY sub beats the comerical sub in cost/performance isnt true any more.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #19 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 07:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I would still put my money on DIY being the performance value. You can buy a Tempest-X and plate amp for ~400.00. Add another 100.00 for an enclosure and you're done. You save 100 bucks and will likely have a flatter output throughout a longer frequency response. The cost though is an enclosure that's big!

To some it's not worth it and luckily, now'a'days you have good ID offerings instead of having to spend big bucks on a Klipsch, Velodyne or any other over priced, under performing option.

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #20 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 08:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Just look at Ilkka's tests and see which subs rest at the top of his list.

Size, power, shape, finish, alignment, extension, slope, configuration, crossover point are all adjustable to your particulars with DIY.

The only commercial subs that can compete somewhat, like the PB-13 Ultra, Seaton's 2X15" Submersive, and the not yet released AV123 BMF are in the $2K range, and JL Audio's 113 is in the $3K area. The larger subs from Genelec, Velo, Wilson, JL Audio, Krell, etc., are much, much, much higher priced.

The HSU, SVS, MFW, Outlaw subs of the world are no match for a good DIY sub in any category except price.

Look at the list in the attachment. Of the top 10 subwoofers (the PB-13 is counted as one subwoofer though it's on the list in four places. If iterations of the DIY subs were included, the top 10 would all be DIY), 8 are DIY. Two are commercial @ $1,700.00 and $3,000.00.

Also interesting is the fact that 7 of them are sealed subs, two are ported (one is also a sealed version of one of those which would actually make the total 7 1/2 sealed vs 1 1/2 ported vs 1 PR) and one is PR.

This is despite the fact that the vast majority of the 38 subwoofers on the list are commercial offerings.

Tom Nousaine's list has always also been topped by DIY. Yates' top awards all went to multi-K $ subs. DIY rules the roost. Always has, always will.

Bosso
bossobass is offline  
post #21 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 08:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Sorry, I forgot the attachment.

Bosso
LL
bossobass is offline  
post #22 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 08:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Nice summary Bosso!

jpmst3 is offline  
post #23 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 08:56 AM
Advanced Member
 
Vinculum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: York, Pa
Posts: 943
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
FWIW, That list is sorted in order of best CEA 2010 score in the 40-63Hz range. Its no wonder the sealed subwoofers rule in this range.

Look at the same list sorting the best in ultra low end. 20-31.5Hz. Bass reflex reigns here as we could predict.

Also here is the same list sorting averaging both frequency ranges together, subwoofers in 20-80Hz range. Note, sealed subwoofers still scoring very well.

It is also best to understand what the CEA 2010 standard is all about, otherwise these scores mean nothing. Google!

Bossos main point tho is that DIY does it everytime. SVS's offering does very well if you don't want to build.
LL
LL


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Vinculum is offline  
post #24 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 09:14 AM
Member
 
100000watt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My build was $3,000, and I doubt any commercial sub in the same price range, could beat it in terms of output.
Plus it was great fun building them! Hard to put a price on that.
100000watt is offline  
post #25 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 09:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jpmst3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Davidsville, PA
Posts: 8,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

Plus it was great fun building them! Hard to put a price on that.

Exactly!

jpmst3 is offline  
post #26 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 09:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kevin Haskins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,008
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hoffman's Iron Law

The MFW-15 is an awesome sub but its limited by its footprint and a 350W plate amp. Commercial subs are always going to be bound by the limitations of what is shipable and what MOST of the market is willing to buy and live with.

If you building a HT room building the subs into the design is a smart move. You tend to have lots of volume available (false walls, risers etc..) and your always going to get more output for less money.

If you just want to re-create a small high output commercial design, I agree, DIY doesn't make as much sense if your only concern is price, just buy a the latest flavor high-output commercial sub.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
Kevin Haskins is offline  
post #27 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:


The MFW-15 is an awesome sub but its limited by its footprint and a 350W plate amp.

The charts shows it to be good as my TC2000K designs so for me its buy or build for the same cost...less time, less hassle. Heck its even a smaller foot print....go figure.

I already have a DIY IB system in the house that was around $1500 to complete so no one needs to convince me of the DIY success stories out there.

Im just amazed that in the past 2 years the quality of the comercial sub has come way down.

I honestly dont think anyone is going to build a sub $$$ vs $$$ better then what I see with that AV123 sub right now. I cant really chart it better with my TC2000K 15" drivers, which are probably some of the best drivers that exist out there.


NOTE: ETA of april makes most of the discussion hypothetical at this point because Im not going to wait.

and I DIY because I save money and it keeps me busy....A.D.D you know...I would be gambling online, playing games, going out....more or less getting a divorce

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #28 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 10:35 AM
Member
 
100000watt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The footprint is not that much of a limitation, is it? My next build will have a footprint very similar to the av123 MFW-15, and I doubt 8 of them would match the output of one of my future towers.
100000watt is offline  
post #29 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 10:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kevin Haskins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,008
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

The charts shows it to be good as my TC2000K designs so for me its buy or build for the same cost...less time, less hassle. Heck its even a smaller foot print....go figure.

I already have a DIY IB system in the house that was around $1500 to complete so no one needs to convince me of the DIY success stories out there.

Im just amazed that in the past 2 years the quality of the comercial sub has come way down.

I honestly dont think anyone is going to build a sub $$$ vs $$$ better then what I see with that AV123 sub right now. I cant really chart it better with my TC2000K 15" drivers, which are probably some of the best drivers that exist out there.


NOTE: ETA of april makes most of the discussion hypothetical at this point because Im not going to wait.

and I DIY because I save money and it keeps me busy....A.D.D you know...I would be gambling online, playing games, going out....more or less getting a divorce

I don't know what chart your using but Hoffman's Iron Law is pretty inflexible.

Most commercial designs are now limited by power & port design. If you look at the top-dogs they are all power limited. DIYers have the option of using big pro-amps which is a big advantage as well as building designs that are bigger than what is easy to ship and support.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
Kevin Haskins is offline  
post #30 of 682 Old 03-05-2008, 11:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinculum View Post

FWIW, That list is sorted in order of best CEA 2010 score in the 40-63Hz range. Its no wonder the sealed subwoofers rule in this range.

Look at the same list sorting the best in ultra low end. 20-31.5Hz. Bass reflex reigns here as we could predict.

I disgree. Sealed still rules the top 10, on every list, including 'ultra low', which only goes to 20Hz (not what I would consider ultra low). I also believe that the Ultra should be averaged across all 4 of its configs for a realistic number to place on a list of averages.

It just shifts to 6 1/2 sealed to 2 1/2 ported to 1 PR in the 20-80Hz range. If that low end figure was lowered to 5Hz, DIY sealed would be alone in the top 10 subs.

I'll again point out also that the inverse square law applies less and less as you go down in frequency and room gain applies more, yielding a much larger boost proportionally to single digits the further away you sit from the subs.

Put 2-LMS 5400 18" or 2-Acoupower 15" or 2-Tumult MKII (OR...Kevin's proposed high end design >>hint<<) in a box that's smaller than the PB-13 Ultra and you have a sub that'll trounce the Ultra in every category. It will afford you infinite choices of system Q and anechoic FR including flat from 7Hz to 100Hz at prices that compete.

Bosso
bossobass is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off