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post #1 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Some of us are looking at using the highly efficient Lambda woofers and I thought it would be best to start a new thread for midranges that would work well with it.

I'm looking at the B&C 6NDL38: http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?...4&prodotto=194 -- distortion tests at http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q288/augerpro/ seem pretty good. Sensitivity matches well with the Lambdas after BSC.

Also we have a BUNCH of options from PHL. All of their medium and extended range 6.5" drivers seem like they'd work. But I have no idea how they are for distortion. http://www.phlaudio.com/main.html

We've got some 18Sound options but they seem to be lower quality than the B&C. The 6ND410 might be OK though: http://www.eighteensound.it/index.as...roduct&pid=244

Eminence has a couple as well but I don't know how they are in quality either: http://www.eminence.com/standard.asp?speaker_size=6


What else? I'm really quite close to saying screw it and sticking with my WR125S (would be VERY tough if not for the fact that I cross actively - barely over 80dB sensitivity) or going for, say, dual Peerless 831882s (MTMW)

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-Dan D.
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post #2 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 08:50 AM
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Quote:


What else?

The PHL is my favorite midrange vendor, the prices are higher.
Certain B&C looks nice for the money, someday I need to get one
for audition. I don't think there is big worries here, you can get
some very good sound from all these mids listed. I think the
bigger problem is elsewhere, the woofer and tweeter choices and
your crossover design, etc.

Good news is that John is making Lambda, now imagine if he didn't,
what are your woofer candidates now ? lol ....
If you want to make a 3 way loudspeaker using the larger sizes of
woofer [10", 12", 15"], what woofers exist on the market that have
the same features and is in the same price range? Off the top of
my head, I don't know another woofer that can do this, but you can
get the job done somehow if you twist your arm.

Now imagine a higher sensitivity speaker design using these
woofers and midranges, how many affordable tweeter candidates
are there that keep up with the SPL of these bigger designs?
Visualize a simple three way speaker with a tweeter, 6.5 - 10"
midrange, and some combination of larger woofer [single or dual
10" or 12" or 15" Lambda], what tweeter will fit that role well?
A dome tweeter won't keep up with the output of that design unless
you design a smaller system using 6.5" midwoofers with a single 10",
which is fine, but the bigger design is sweeter.

John's using the NeoPro5i which is nice, it's almost the default tweeter
choice because the market doesn't really have many choices that fit the bigger
designs well, but not many people want to fork over $600/pair for tweeters [or more]
not to mention the price tag for the other drivers, but if you did it would
be an above average loudspeaker and a pretty high end design vs. commercial speakers.
What else? compression drivers and horns? yep, that's an option,
but you have to accept that sonic character and horns have a love/hate thing going
on when it comes to SQ. When you get into these bigger designs, the choices seem
to narrow and the price tag rises. Most people end up going back to the normal designs.



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post #3 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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thy, my goal is high output with low distortion/very high SQ. High sensitivity is a bonus. I will trade a small amount of distortion performance if it gains me a good bit of sensitivity, but I still want a low distortion system. As I mentioned in the Lambda thread, my current speakers use a single Extremis and it's nowhere NEAR enough, which is why I'm not even considering the Dayton Ref 10" woofer, for example.

Size might be a little restricting in that 15" woofers would make a too-big cabinet for me I think. I'd like to go with dual 10"s but I will probably go with a single 12" for cost reasons. I definitely don't need the dual 15" that you suggest.

As for tweeter, I might use the D26NC55 because I have a bunch of them handy and Zaph's test show them to have a lot less distortion than the XT25s.

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-Dan D.
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post #4 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 09:40 AM
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Zaph's tests are great, but it's not a Holy Grail.

I could be wrong, but I don't think his tests include driver
auditions and max SPL tests, two important variables in
my book

For instance, is this the same tweeter you like? [see link]. If so,
the audition is ok, nothing amazing, in fact the claim is
the tweeter starts to suffer when SPL is pushed.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...read.php?t=164

I don't know what your definition of high SPL is but when
you do seek higher SPL the first thing to look at is your
tweeter candidates. This seems to be the bigger bottleneck.
Asking a single tweeter for high SPL and high SQ is a demandng task. You have
to zero in on what SPL level you want. You probabaly need an SPL reference to gauge where
to start. For instance, lets say you went to the high end store and auditioned commercial loudspeaker
at any price, what designs satisfy? Analyze it and the setup used. This can give you an idea if
the common dome tweeter [or whatever] is up to the task or if you need an exotic solution.


Quote:


my goal is high output with low distortion/very high SQ. High sensitivity is a bonus.

Another way to visualize this is to think pretty big even if
it's not what you want. High output, low distortion, high
SQ, high sensitivity can be a large horn system or line
array. When you analyze this you will see that the design
is large then you imagine how you can get that sound in
a small and tight package, it's not an easy project that is
affordable.

Quote:


which is why I'm not even considering the Dayton Ref 10" woofer, for example.

Size might be a little restricting in that 15" woofers would make a too-big cabinet for me I think. I'd like to go with dual 10"s but I will probably go with a single 12" for cost reasons. I definitely don't need the dual 15" that you suggest.

You zeroed in on the woofers, only a single 12" fits the plan, no 10", no 15", no dual woofers, probably no big
horns or line arrays.

Do you think you can reach this goal with a common dome, midrange and single 12" woofer, Lambda or not?
I don't know, you have to figure it out.
Quote:


my goal is high output with low distortion/very high SQ. High sensitivity is a bonus.

Do you want a small improvement over a standard design
or do you want to really make a bigger impact ? Many people
doing DIY will build many speakers over the years and waste money. It might be better to save up and go bigger
and build it once and not have to do another build later.



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post #5 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't actually heard the D26. I've had some in a box because I got 'em for rather cheap and thought this would be a good chance to try them, though maybe I won't given his thoughts on it. Maybe I'll try a Seas 29TAFW instead; that was another one I was looking at. Or maybe I should just stick with the XT19. I definitely have no interest in planars.

I do agree that in my design, the tweeter will likely hold me back, but I don't think that I'm looking for SPL high enough for it to be an issue. It's mainly that I'm a basshead that my current speakers are wimpy. I have not come close to straining the tweeter (or at least I haven't heard it sound that way).

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #6 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

It's mainly that I'm a basshead that my current speakers are wimpy. I have not come close to straining the tweeter (or at least I haven't heard it sound that way).

Check your pm



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post #7 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 01:18 PM
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What else? compression drivers and horns? yep, that's an option,
but you have to accept that sonic character and horns have a love/hate thing going
on when it comes to SQ.

A BMS compression driver and a DDS or 18sound waveguide is a proven combo. High efficiency, plays loud, plays clean, sounds great. The waveguide eliminates most of the typical 'horn' problems by going for SQ and controlled directivity rather than max SPL, following loosely in the footsteps of Earl Geddes's research.

Dennis H
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post #8 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

A BMS compression driver and a DDS or 18sound waveguide is a proven combo. High efficiency, plays loud, plays clean, sounds great. The waveguide eliminates most of the typical 'horn' problems by going for SQ and controlled directivity rather than max SPL, following loosely in the footsteps of Earl Geddes's research.


Just to add to Dennis's comments: there are several spreadsheets for making your own waveguide following Geddes's formula. If you can't do that Geddes himself is importing a number of his waveguides to the US, complete with the foam. The B&C DE250 is perfect match to these, though others may well match too. For low price I hear the B&C DE10 is quite the driver.

~Brandon


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post #9 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 03:23 PM
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Well, since you are going active with the system, that does give you some options. The hard part is not only finding a midrange that matches efficiency, but one that can cover the range better than the Lambda woofers. I have yet to hear any midrange, whether it is a 10", 8", 6.5", etc that can cover the range from say 500hz up to 2KHz better than the TD15M. Above 2KHz the off axis response begins to drop off due to beaming, but if you plan to be sitting in a dedicated position this is not an issue.

That gives the option of not specifically needing a midrange driver. The trick is finding a tweeter that can play down low enough. The NeoPro5i, Aurum Cantus, or the RAAL ribbon would be good options. Other than that you need to look to a good compression driver. We use the TD15M's mated to the BMS 1.4" coax compression driver on the 18sound XT1464 horn. In this system as an MTM alignment we cross to the horn about 750-800Hz with great results. Several of the better 1.4" and 2" compression drivers can handle this 750-800hz range. If you are using a single 15" driver you could go even higher in frequency.

As far as midrange drivers go, you've covered the list pretty well. We have looked at some of the 6.5" and 8" drivers from 18sound and B&C. Mating the 8" B&C coax to a TD15 or TD12 can be a very good option as well.

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post #10 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not convinced that these high efficiency options, both midrange and tweeter, can sound anywhere NEAR as good as Tymphany/Seas

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #11 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 05:18 PM
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Color me confused, didn't you started this thread looking for a high efficiency mid to match to the Lambda?

If you want to stick with a hifi driver then let us know your design parameters and maybe some can give some good suggestions.

I don't know much about the Lambda (and John can correct me) but if all you're going to do is use it as a woofer it seems like kind of a waste of it's strengths. There are a lot of other drivers out there that are good for woofer duty.

~Brandon


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post #12 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I wasn't necessarily set on one, I wanted opinions on them. I haven't decided on anything yet, just want to make sure I'm happy with whatever I do build so I'm putting a lot of research into it. I don't have the money to buy a whole bunch of different drivers to try.

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #13 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 05:42 PM
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Quote:


I'm not convinced that these high efficiency options, both midrange and tweeter, can sound anywhere NEAR as good as Tymphany/Seas

Well, you would be wrong. At low SPL, the Seas/Tymphany drivers may have somewhat lower distortion than the pro drivers but the pro drivers still manage decent distortion performance at SPL levels that would make the hifi drivers totally puke if not melt into a smoking blob. As Brandon said, define your goals and get back to us.

Dennis H
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post #14 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 05:44 PM
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PHL would be a good match I feel.

Here's some distortion data, from Klang n' Ton, on the 1120:



Impressive, no?

BTW distortion expressed in dB converts to percentage as follows:
-10dB = 30%
-20dB = 10%
-30dB = 3%
-40dB = 1%
-50dB = 0.3%
-60dB = 0.1%
etc.

I also have issues containing reviews of another 6.5", 8" and 12" mid PHL drivers as well as their 8" coax.

Other suggestions would be the ATC super, Precision Devices mids, Audiotechnolgy custom 8" with their huge(for a mid) 7" motor and optimised for high sensitivity - they'll be able to knock up a 97dB mid driver using this. Search out the pro drivers. You could also double up on drivers around the 90dB mark and get around 3-6dB more depending on baffle step and bass->mid crossover.
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post #15 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

thy, my goal is high output with low distortion/very high SQ.

Finally someone with some sense around here All these crazy sub projects and weedy ass main partnering them. About time someone pony'd up a project that did well into three figure SPL's with little distortion and covered more than two to three octaves.
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post #16 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

I don't know what your definition of high SPL is but when
you do seek higher SPL the first thing to look at is your
tweeter candidates. This seems to be the bigger bottleneck.
Asking a single tweeter for high SPL and high SQ is a demandng task. You have
to zero in on what SPL level you want. You probabaly need an SPL reference to gauge where
to start.

I think the choices are, as you say, very small for a single driver that does clean high SPL ie. 115dB @ 3m with <2%. You know at least one but sadly you have to buy the speakers and pull the tweeters out
Another option is the upcoming Proline from RAAL, sporting an 8" x 1" ribbon element along with approx 100dB/1w/1m. Verrry expensive though and not available till later this year.
You have quite a nice selection if you go with compression drivers, a good number go very loud but only a very small number do so in a manner that's actually pleasant IME. Radian, TAD, Goto, Kondo and such like are well respected here. I have absolutely zero practical experience with any of those though.

Then there's a line array.
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post #17 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 06:31 PM
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This was that part that I wasn't so thrilled about

Quote:


It's mainly that I'm a basshead that my current speakers are wimpy. I have not come close to straining the tweeter (or at least I haven't heard it sound that way).

Folks don't seem to like full range high spl, they like bass, hence all the crazy subs we see here. Tweeters are pretty much always the week point of the design, yet they seldom get pushed, why? People don't seem to like completely full range sound when its cranked, I have talked to quite a few people lately who want more spl, they seem to want more woofers, better mids, ect. but claim their traditional dome tweeter is more than enough spl for them. They want more mid bass, I don't understand all this bass, midbass and midrange excitement if the tweeter is still the same. Tweets have similar efficiency to midranges and woofers, but handle far less power, they are the first to go in a system, especially when you cross them over 2000Hz or less. Finding exceptional tweets that play loud and sound good in a hi fi system is VERY hard, there aren't many candidates at all. Its nice to have so many good woofers/mids being produced these days from AE, PHL, B&C, ect, but the tweeters are rare and what few candidates are left are expensive.

Thy has some good tweeters, much louder than the Neo5iPro, higher efficiency, greater power handling, they are possibly the best in the business for high spl, non compression, non horn tweeters. However, even with these $800 monsters, a single TD10M keeps up very well. This begs the question, what keeps up with the TD15's? Better yet, a pair of TD15's? Pretty much the only things that do are horn loaded compression drivers, which can sound very good to some people, others hate them. Life deals a nasty card to those who like high spl full range sound and don't want horn loaded compression drivers. Getting what we need is next to impossible, we turn to line arrays for our sound, but unfortunately line arrays don't boost the tweeters much, mostly mids/woofers, still, they seem the best way to get full range high spl, I like them a lot anyway, even at lower outputs. The nice, wide sweet spot is very nice, and the dynamics they provide are staggering.
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post #18 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Thy has some good tweeters, much louder than the Neo5iPro, higher efficiency, greater power handling, they are possibly the best in the business for high spl, non compression, non horn tweeters. However, even with these $800 monsters, a single TD10M keeps up very well. This begs the question, what keeps up with the TD15's? Better yet, a pair of TD15's? Pretty much the only things that do are horn loaded compression drivers, which can sound very good to some people, others hate them. Life deals a nasty card to those who like high spl full range sound and don't want horn loaded compression drivers. Getting what we need is next to impossible, we turn to line arrays for our sound, but unfortunately line arrays don't boost the tweeters much, mostly mids/woofers, still, they seem the best way to get full range high spl, I like them a lot anyway, even at lower outputs. The nice, wide sweet spot is very nice, and the dynamics they provide are staggering.

The RAAL 140-15d, with 113dB/2m and <2% distortion including highpass at 2.5Khz, would keep up with a pair of TD15 working in down to 30hz on the same terms. This model of RAAL isn't even beginning to touch what extreme is about either.



Some believe the holy grail is a wide band driver that can cover an extended range, such as 800hz-20Khz+, and still give figures close the best tweeters around. 2" compression drivers will do this but you accept other compromises.

Your right that people just don't listen at extreme SPL's. I don't either because it just makes you go deaf that bit quicker. I do like dynamic impact though and compression along with distortion take away from that. Most tweeters aren't exemplary in this regard, domes in particular are noted for this. My old Scanspeak R2904 ring rads are a prime example, and these are one of the better ones.
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post #19 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't set the bass so high that it drowns out the other stuff, but still, I haven't heard my tweeters getting strained. Besides, I love the sound of the XT19 too much to go to something so radically different, especially when it costs so much. And it's not like I'm doing dual TD15s (or even a single TD15) here....

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #20 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 08:45 PM
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Edit: nevermind.

Dennis H
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post #21 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Well, if you like wimpy tweeters, then find yourself a nice 5" hifi midwoof and be happy. No need to mess with all this pro/high-SPL stuff.

I never claimed to be looking for 125dB. I'm looking for 110 or a bit over. How far will my XT19 go? I don't know. But what I do know is that it will go further than my woofers are currently taking me, and if I need to buy tweeters later, I will cross that bridge when I come to it. Who knows, maybe if I get 110, I'll want 115, and if I get 115, I'll want 120....

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #22 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 09:50 PM
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Another thing to mention is that even when not listening at overly loud levels, there is some importance to headroom for accurate reproduction. The typical 88-90dB 1W dome tweeter with 100W will be getting to 108dB at 1m or about 102dB at 2m. Depending on the coil, motor topology, suspension, etc in most cases you'll likely already be reaching the limits of the driver and have some compression bringing down this level. Also you likely won't have any headroom left over for any dynamic peaks. If there is suddenly a burst of 6 to 10dB, you're already at the limits of what the driver can do. It simply plays the tone at 6-10dB less than it really should have. At this point distortion is extremely high.

Now take a driver that is 100dB 1W with the same 100W power handling. At 1m it can easily reach 120dB or 114dB at 2m. Now listen at that same 102dB continuous level at 2m and play the same 6-10dB peak burst. You are well within the level of what this driver can do and the sound is reproduced as it should be without compression or more distortion. The trend going towards the high efficiency, high output stuff is not simply just about playing loud, but being able to most accurately reproduce what was recorded. I want the snare drum or crash of a cymbal to sound real. To do that you need headroom.

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post #23 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, what tweeter will sound as smooth as the XT19, go louder and not cost 5+ times the amount?

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #24 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinobiwan View Post

The RAAL 140-15d, with 113dB/2m and <2% distortion including highpass at 2.5Khz, would keep up with a pair of TD15 working in down to 30hz on the same terms. This model of RAAL isn't even beginning to touch what extreme is about either.

I dunno if you have tried out the Lambda's yet but they can do a LOT more than most drivers or even than the specs seem to indicate. IIRC, thylantir has driver over 1000watts into one of the Apollo upgraded TD15 woofers in a sine wave for an extended period of time, they can handle tremendous amounts of power, they are like the acoupowers of woofer/midranges. He has told me in PM discussions that a single TD10 can easily keep pace with a Stage accompany planar driver, those things run around $800 and have 102dB sensitivity without the horn attachment. You can pump a couple KW into them if they are crossed over right, I don't know what the Raal extreme is about but I can't imagine it withstanding that kind of abuse, I don't see how a ribbon can, you need a planar driver. My Dayton PT2C's can take an INSANE amount of abuse and I have never damaged one, even after driving several hundred watts into each, I have blown fountek neo2 ribbons though with a passive network, an easier crossover and less power, and the founteks are acclaimed for their incredibly robust composite among true ribbons. I am sure the raals are more robust, but you get my drift. Planars can handle massive amounts of abuse, far moreso than a true ribbon. I have no idea how a raal can possibly hang with a pair of TD15's, they can hit 130dB without a hitch.
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post #25 of 68 Old 04-07-2008, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Another thing to mention is that even when not listening at overly loud levels, there is some importance to headroom for accurate reproduction. The typical 88-90dB 1W dome tweeter with 100W will be getting to 108dB at 1m or about 102dB at 2m...If there is suddenly a burst of 6 to 10dB, you're already at the limits of what the driver can do. It simply plays the tone at 6-10dB less than it really should have. At this point distortion is extremely high.

You're also assuming that individual also has 400-1000wpc on hand. Maybe I under estimate what a tweeter can do, but 500w+ bursts of snare drum energy to your average 30-40.00 dome tweeter might make it go snap crackle and pop?

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post #26 of 68 Old 04-08-2008, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

I dunno if you have tried out the Lambda's yet but they can do a LOT more than most drivers or even than the specs seem to indicate. IIRC, thylantir has driver over 1000watts into one of the Apollo upgraded TD15 woofers in a sine wave for an extended period of time, they can handle tremendous amounts of power, they are like the acoupowers of woofer/midranges. He has told me in PM discussions that a single TD10 can easily keep pace with a Stage accompany planar driver, those things run around $800 and have 102dB sensitivity without the horn attachment. You can pump a couple KW into them if they are crossed over right, I don't know what the Raal extreme is about but I can't imagine it withstanding that kind of abuse, I don't see how a ribbon can, you need a planar driver. My Dayton PT2C's can take an INSANE amount of abuse and I have never damaged one, even after driving several hundred watts into each, I have blown fountek neo2 ribbons though with a passive network, an easier crossover and less power, and the founteks are acclaimed for their incredibly robust composite among true ribbons. I am sure the raals are more robust, but you get my drift. Planars can handle massive amounts of abuse, far moreso than a true ribbon. I have no idea how a raal can possibly hang with a pair of TD15's, they can hit 130dB without a hitch.

The RAAL teardrop does 109dB/1w/1m unassisted. The owner of these has SA planars too but doesn't use them any more.

I ripped one of the ribbons in my RAAL's too. I had them in bits to mod the face plate and it sucked one of the mounting bolts out of my hand into the gap and through the ribbon But playing music, RAAL are virtually indestructible. You'll hurt your hearing with distortion and SPL before you break the element. Remember I just posted a graph showing 64w pumped into them and they're still less the 2% distortion at high SPL. They can handle short term peaks of 200w and still not break. That's why you pay $1000 a pair for these driver. The problem with some ribbons is the uneven BL acting across the gap, it creates stresses across the ribbon as it moves in the gap and eventually it breaks.

Regarding those two TD15's at 130dB/1m, the distortion is going to be more than 2% across their passband at that level. Get it into 119dB/1m at under 2% and still you'll be looking at more than 2% - particularly low down. There's no posted measured distortion data on any of the new Lambda drivers, so how can I say this? The Klang and Ton reviews also have a bunch of 12"-24" PA driver reviews, so I can see the reality. Don't get me wrong, the Lambda seem like good drivers and the amount of respect they garner isn't small but people throw around these big absolute max figures without regard for distortion. To me that's not a usable part of the drivers output. So yes, the RAAL 140-15d would keep up with a pair of TD15 when crossed at 2.5Khz/4th order+.
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post #27 of 68 Old 04-08-2008, 10:29 AM
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Quote:


The RAAL teardrop does 109dB/1w/1m unassisted. The owner of these has SA planars too but doesn't use them any more.

Romy the Cat
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/...spx?ForumID=22

He's a bizzare character with very esoteric needs. His
application for his tweeters is not typical.

Romy's application is more like high pass 10khz. He doesn't like
tweeters operating at a low crossover point
and he wants the midrange driver to do all the work if
possible, but the midrange driver he uses is limited,
therefore he was seeking a 'super tweeter' for assistance.

He bought different tweeters for evaluation and in the end
he had the Raal guy custom make a tweeter for him to
satisfy that unique desire. The RAAL teardrop seems
optimized for that specific mode of operation. I get the feeling that I'd
break that tweeter playing my Slayer music



The SA is flat down to 1600hz not to mention that it's
not even a ribbon tweeter, it's a planar. No thanks to
manufacturers who spread bad information, then users
start to spread bad information too, but many planar type
drivers are labeled as ribbon drivers when it's a different
technology.

The big bonus on planars is that they are much more
robust drivers that can take abuse.

*I have tortured my $30 cheap Dayton planars and they don't blow up.

*I have tortured my SA, won't blow up.

On the other hand, people using true ribbon have reported
blown ribbon elements by doing very little to cause damage.

Even the bigger NeoPro5i [$300] got damaged when the guy was
doing a simple driver test.



Quote:


But playing music, RAAL are virtually indestructible. You'll hurt your hearing with distortion and SPL before you break the element. Remember I just posted a graph showing 64w pumped into them and they're still less the 2% distortion at high SPL. They can handle short term peaks of 200w and still not break. That's why you pay $1000 a pair for these driver.

Raal is unique as it's hand crafted, people will pay the piper
to get quality and performance.

The SA is an old design, probably 20 years old. But considering that the
overal tweeter market has been stale forever, it's easy for this driver to
stay in elite status, plus it's 13 ohms which makes it line array friendly and
tube geeks [not me] might like the higher impedance. What I really like about the planar concept
is the transformerless design. I think it's a nice bonus to remove 'stuff' from the signal
path.

I hate the SA mechanical design, it's now obsolete and a PITA.
If it wasn't for this, I might have a function line array by now

Quote:


They can handle short term peaks of 200w and still not break.

The Raal is interesting but I wonder what the breaking point is? The SA is ancient,
yet rated for 1000 watt peak (200mS).

The PLX3402 amp was tested at 5.7kw, 50mS burst @ 20khz @ 4 ohms bridged.
I can easily connect the SA to this amplifier and hit clipping with no issues
[the 13 ohm design helps with this]

Bottom line.
Very few people in DIY home audio will buy the
exotic tweeters, due to cost. I can count on 1/2 of one
hand on SA users and perhaps the same for Raal users
that I have seen in forums. I'm being generous when
I say 1/2 of one hand.

These threads of detailed and complex information regarding these unique drivers is moot,
who's gonna buy a pair?



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #28 of 68 Old 04-08-2008, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Raal is unique as it's hand crafted, people will pay the piper
to get quality and performance.

The SA is an old design, probably 20 years old. But considering that the
overal tweeter market has been stale forever, it's easy for this driver to
stay in elite status, plus it's 13 ohms which makes it line array friendly and
tube geeks [not me] might like the higher impedance. What I really like about the planar concept
is the transformerless design. I think it's a nice bonus to remove 'stuff' from the signal
path.

I hate the SA mechanical design, it's now obsolete and a PITA.
If it wasn't for this, I might have a function line array by now

Here's an extension of the 140-15d, the 210-15 with 15mm x 210mm element:



Also available are amorphous core transformers for folks who like expensive caps, own tube amps or like to pump lots of power into the ribbons and be sure the core isn't saturating.

And the proline(not pictured) is designed to be crossed at 1Khz. Your only limited by your budget when it comes to custom design from Alex. A couple of meter high multi segment line array ribbon based on the proline is possible.

Quote:


The Raal is interesting but I wonder what the breaking point is? The SA is ancient,
yet rated for 1000 watt peak (200mS).

Distortion not good at 1000w though. Why? Because if its 102dB/1m/1w then it would be doing 132dB. Again throwing big figures and claims without the objective evidence is of little value. I have seen the data on probably the best planar around, Alcons 18" - 120dB/1m <1%. Nice. I'm sure it could manage more but distortion would rise too. Just keeping things in perspective

At what point the 140-15d breaks is moot. The clean SPL, as I've already shown, is generously loud but keep pushing it and you'll hear the distortion protests and at this point the SPL is at uncomfortable levels making you want to turn it down anyway. Keep pushing it past this and your both dumb, deaf and don't mind completely distortion ridden shite. So you see, to break it would be an academic exercise and not something that happens in daily use - maybe that isn't true, if you have an active system, no filtering and accidentally played some low bass through it at high level then it will very easily break.
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post #29 of 68 Old 04-08-2008, 02:20 PM
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For me, line arrays or bust.

The cheap array that I made as a side project showed me
what a line array can do. So far I have not seen a
commercial or DIY array that is optimized to it's full
potential. Oh well, sucks to be them

Imagine what can be done with the good drivers, not the
ones that cost $500 - $1000 each, but if you did use those
uber drivers, a new world to explore.

It's not wise to post all this information in cyber, someday
you will see your ideas snagged.

Being cryptic is ideal



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #30 of 68 Old 04-08-2008, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

It's not wise to post all this information in cyber, someday
you will see your ideas snagged.

Being cryptic is ideal

Talking of which. You have a PM
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