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post #181 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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The rigid is better than foam BTW.

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Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #182 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are the NRC ratings for the foam I bought



1" Wedge 2" Wedge 3" Wedge 4" Wedge 2-1/2" Eggcrate Bass Absorbers
Overall NRC 0.52 0.81 0.88 1.07 0.75 1.35
NRC at 125 HZ 0.09 0.13 0.22 0.32 0.20 1.25
NRC at 250 HZ 0.12 0.29 0.48 0.87 0.33 1.26
NRC at 500 HZ 0.33 0.89 1.04 1.23 0.68 1.47

Testing for the NRC rating was done by the Reverb Room (ASTM C423)

The bass traps are pretty good and I have 12 of them.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #183 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some ratings on more expensive, but still cost effective 2 inch panels that look nice.

125 250 500 1000 2000 4000 NRC
0.27 0.55 1.07 1.10 1.10 1.10 0.95

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #184 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You have to scream in my room now to hear each other from one side to the other, pretty cool effect.

It sounds like you may have over-deadend your room. What is your RT60 right now? I think the ideal HT numbers are right around .250 or so.

Although, if you enjoy the room that way then go for it, balls to the wall. I'd be more inclined to do some serious bass trapping without using wideband absorbers since you're bass output is so much higher than your mains etc.

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post #185 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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My bass is not more than my mains, they are very close. I know I went over dampened but my other goal was to keep the sound in the theater and out of the rest of the house as much as possible. We will see.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #186 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My bass is not more than my mains, they are very close. I know I went over dampened but my other goal was to keep the sound in the theater and out of the rest of the house as much as possible. We will see.

How much wattage do you have dedicated to each?

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post #187 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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600 watts per speaker(available). I run the same amps on all the speakers. I run the pro JBL's that are 101 db sensitive and can keep up with the bass no problem, even with the 4 big sono's I had. I am figuring that the 8 smaller sealed will be close in output. I was only 5 watts at the listening position without any treatments(well some), at peaks. I am not even coming close to the potential, I want major overkill so everything can play at reference levels with very little distortion and be easy on the drivers, speakers, and amps.

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post #188 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 03:46 PM
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Oh well then. I had the impression that your subs seriously outweighed the mains.

You still need to sure up those low end absorber numbers. Do you have anything that excels at damping 500hz and below?

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post #189 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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The bass absorbers do pretty well and I have 12 of them, 3 of them in every corner, I have 3 inch foam borders through out and 6 inch behind the screen. I will take pics when finished(although the pics make them look aweful), just for an idea.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #190 of 672 Old 12-08-2008, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The bass absorbers do pretty well and I have 12 of them, 3 of them in every corner, I have 3 inch foam borders through out and 6 inch behind the screen. I will take pics when finished(although the pics make them look aweful), just for an idea.

Ok so you have a bunch but have you measured the in room response they give you? All of it is for naught if they damp the wrong frequencies. What does your RT60 measure?

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post #191 of 672 Old 12-09-2008, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I am not sure, I have not taken any measurements as I don't have any software or hardware to do so. I usually just measure manually with sine waves and see if there are any peaks or nulls. My room sounds pretty good and I did what I did mostly to not destroy the house. I want to keep the sound in the room as much as I can. I am just about finished and will take more pics. I am very pleased with the front stage appearance but I have yet to try out all the subs. Tonight is the night and I will give some impressions.(Dark Night)

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post #192 of 672 Old 12-09-2008, 12:08 PM
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Do you have a laptop handy, MK? Have you ever used REW? (Room EQ Wizard) It's pretty easy to use and a lot around here and other forums use it to post graphs and EQ their subwoofers. I don't know for sure but I think it works with full range signals. It might help with some of the acoustic treatment installation. I know it does waterfalls and all that so maybe it would help find your RT60. I am not sure but maybe someone here has done that.

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post #193 of 672 Old 12-09-2008, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Do you have a laptop handy, MK? Have you ever used REW? (Room EQ Wizard) It's pretty easy to use and a lot around here and other forums use it to post graphs and EQ their subwoofers. I don't know for sure but I think it works with full range signals. It might help with some of the acoustic treatment installation. I know it does waterfalls and all that so maybe it would help find your RT60. I am not sure but maybe someone here has done that.

You can set any range you want to test as long as your speakers and mic will both meet it. I use a radio shack analog spl meter with the calibration files. It gets me reasonably accurate measurements from 7hz up into 20khz. In about 1 minute you can run a sweep, calculate and get about 20 different measurements, including RT60. I'll post mine later. I dont have any in my room after it was treated because I forgot to save the last file but I'll post my untreated graph so you get the idea.

Dennis or someone else more in the know may correct me here but treatments aren't the correct way to keep sound in the room. They're there to give your room a more reasonable resonance. If you want to deaden sound its my understanding you do it with insulation outside your fishtank.

MKTheater, dont take this as me preaching. If you're happy with your room then have at it. Its your room and no-one should tell you how to enjoy it. You just might be able to get better in room and out of room response by doing it a different way. You seem to want to do it right from the start so now's the time to look into it.

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post #194 of 672 Old 12-09-2008, 12:47 PM
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Oh, cool! So you can use REW fullrange and find the RT60. I've only used it for measurements on my twins. Heh, actually, its been about a year. I need to re-do some tests.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #195 of 672 Old 12-09-2008, 01:58 PM
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I just grabbed one of my measurements at random. It happened to be my mains in stereo, sub, no audyssey, no treatments.



As you can see I was getting around .350 for most of the low - mid spectrum, with a major node from around 90hz - 190hz. I've read many places that .250 is ideal for any theater work. Lower than that and you start to over deaden, above that and you still have significant ringing.

After audyssey and my 6 DIY treatments the node is severely tamed and the rest of the spectrum skirts .250. I was lucky that knauf board comes in 6 packs and I needed 6. I made 6 frames out of 1x3s with an ID of 2'x4' and slid the knauf board inside. I wrapped the whole thing with poly batting and then fire retardant burlap my GF picked out. All said and done it cost just over $130 which is just over $20 each. That included the insulation panels, the burlap, the batting, the screws, the staples and the wood. Even ATS acoustics couldnt go that low with completed panels. It took me about an hour to draw out what I wanted to do simply because I hadnt worked in board-feet in a while. Then about 4 hours to assemble the parts. It was a fun project for us on a sunday afternoon.

I mounted one panel horizontally in the middle of each wall/ceiling corner and then one on each walls first reflection point. The sound change was fantastic.

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post #196 of 672 Old 12-09-2008, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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What I was trying to do with this foam I accomplished. I just ran the Dark night at reference levels and my wife said she could barely here it anymore from upstairs. I already built my room with sound board and insulation to sound proof it. I have more serious issues now and I need help. I ran all 8 subs and the bass was hardly there. I am splitting my sub out 8 times so I am either having a low input problem or cancellation problems. I will run just 2 subs(front and rear) and see what cancels if any. When I ran the 8 subs I had 2 in each corner, I will post pics. Anyway, I ran just the 4 back subs and the bass was fantastic. I watched the Dark night. Very articluate, more so then the ported ones. They have more midbass slam as well. I have not tested them with WOTW or Anything else but I will. I just need to get all of them going. Here are some more pics

This is how my front left subs turned out.





The new front stage



There I am for size reference, I am 6'3" and 275 pounds



Here are the 2 more subs in the back right corner and then 2 more at the back left corner





Here is my rack with some new additions, a 6 channel amp and newer processor


AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #197 of 672 Old 12-09-2008, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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When I had all 8 going I needed to turn the lfe trim all the way to max of 20 db's so I new something was wrong. I disconnected the front subs and just ran the back 4 and it was awesome. I then tried the front subs alone and it was again great. I hope I can figure this out.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #198 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 02:08 AM
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Holy crap, that is insane MKTheater!! That is a lot of huge drivers to have in one very short room. If you're 6'3", the ceiling can't be more than what, 7'? Maybe the picture is deceiving. Our ceiling is 7'4" though, and my 6'4" brother doesn't look anywhere near as close to our ceiling as you do to yours. So where is the screen? I love the equipment rack and the chairs look super comfy. I can see why you need lot of subwoofers though, if you want to keep up with those mains!

I don't know what to tell you on the disappearing and reappearing bass. Are you sure the phase is proper for all of them?

I like how you mounted your front sonotube type subwoofers. Are you going to finish the end caps and stands at some point?
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post #199 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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The ceiling is 6'8"(I swear they were 7 feet at one time) which is aweful but the horns work great in this situation. The room is 21 feet long and 15 feet wide, sealed, and now totally dead which works great with these big horns. I don't know if I will finish the legs or MDF because I like the way it looks. The front subs get covered with a black curtain. I have not finished the velvet border around my screen yet but when I do I will take pics. I never thought of a phase issue and will check that as well. I hope that is what it is. I will try tonight.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
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LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
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post #200 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 10:57 AM
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Awesomest...picture....EVAR!!!

You really did treat that whole room. Look at that ceiling! Whew! That must have taken some time. I love it. And all those woofer all over. You could cave someone's chest in with a setup like that.

Oh, is that Xbox controller yours?

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post #201 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 11:51 AM
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Awesome stuff man. That is one jam packed room. My living room is similar to that, 15'6" x 21' 6" but my ceilings are 11ft. I can't imagine having all of that in there. I bet it sounds killer.

You should do the back 4 subs like you did the front ones. I think it looks good. Also check out REW like Scott mentioned it's good stuff and can really help you out.

Couple of questions.

What amps are you using on the subs again? Are you using 8 amps that you would have to split the signal that many times? Triple check the phase on all the drivers. Are you EQing the subs low end yet?
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post #202 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I would love to place the subs like the front in the back but the back left corner would block the rack. I could do the 3 corners like that and then have the back left corner the way it is. The pictures do no justice to the foam because they look nice in person. They are dark and make a nice pattern. The reason I did this is because I can play 130 db's in my room and barely hear it upstairs. I will try the phase and I hope that is it. My amps running these are two Ada MPA-501 5 channel amps and I am splitting the sub out from the processor 8 times to 8 inputs on the amps.

I have to say the 4 subs in the back alone are very impressive. I turned them up 6 db's(to accomodate not having all on) and they were better than the 4 sono's I had up front before. More articulate, just as powerful, and deeper. Well, it seemed deeper. More testing tonight.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #203 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I sit 12 feet away from the screen(which is now 125 inches) and the back row is 18 feet away. It is not cramped at all.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #204 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
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Awesome stuff man. That is one jam packed room. My living room is similar to that, 15'6" x 21' 6" but my ceilings are 11ft. I can't imagine having all of that in there. I bet it sounds killer.

Ouch. I feel your pain, Ricci. My ceilings are ~9ft tall. Takes a lot of extra woofage to fill all that unused space above our heads. Wish my HT room as at least that wide though. I am limited to the 10.5ft width. Wide stereo imaging? Where? I so just want my room to be 3-4ft wider. Agghhh....



Hope you figure out what's going on with your woofers, MK. After having four subs it must be hard to hook up once you've split the signal so many times. I sense a new product being released in the next year. A hookup box just for subs that would help people in situations like this. Hope the hardware guys are listening.

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post #205 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, that is a Xbox360 controller, there is a PS3 as well.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #206 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 01:05 PM
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Didn't know you had either console and wasn't sure if that was yours to play or not. I have Xbox 360 (GT in sig) and play occasionally. Some games these days have pretty low bass in them. You should send me a friend request if you have an online account.

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post #207 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 01:36 PM
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MK.
WOW. That is a killer setup. Really it is. I am impressed that the soundproofing did such a good job. So the bass traps helped also? I have one lonely SubMersive but it gets mighty loud in my small room. The sound travels as well. I got a solid core door with some acoustic material and it helps a bit. Are there products you can use in the room, without much demolition, that would help a bit in soundproofing?
Again, that is freakin awesome.

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post #208 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mike. The color of the foam I use looks more like the front stage pic than any other picture. Dark grey. I don't know if the bass traps helped but the bass is more articulate now but I switched from ported to sealed so I don't know which helped or if both did.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #209 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Scott,
I play gears of war 2. My name is Spinefixer on live. I swear I am the oldest guy on it.

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post #210 of 672 Old 12-10-2008, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Scott,
I play gears of war 2. My name is Spinefixer on live. I swear I am the oldest guy on it.

I really want to post in here swearing about something and telling you how I'm going to make my mommy kick your ***.

Did you flip phase yet? Huh, huh, huh????

Sorry, excitable Chris is out today.

Chris Schempp
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