18" Easy Button End Tables 24" x 21" x 36" hwd - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 286 Old 11-22-2008, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

Is this a completely new setup? Or did you have a different sub on the same AVR/amp combo and had significantly more output? I have seen this issue pop up several times this year...and it seems split between voice coils being wired opposed to each other so they are fighting (most common) and AVR LFE signal not set properly. Have you done a search for "low bass output"?

This is the first time im putting a subwoofer in my setup. I previously used logitech z-5500s until i bought my polk audio speakers and my denon 1909 a few months back, so im fairly new to the scene.

I am fairly certain it is not a polarity issue, as i just checked both voice coils with a AA battery individually and in parallel, and all trials had the driver kick upwards. I have it hooked up like this:

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/ca/...4-ohm_mono.jpg

I get a pretty good upward kick JUST from a single AA battery when they are hooked up in parallel. I would assume that means that i hooked it up properly.

As for LFE, i think i set the receiver up properly, but im not sure. In the speaker setup i turned the sub on and set it to "LFE + main". Anywhere where there was a sob gain or LFE gain i set it to max. Even with other people having problems with LFE, a different receiver has different settings and i just dont know what setting it could be if it was a settings problem.

Also, the crossover LFE on the denon is 80hz, and i have the high pass filter turned off on the ep2500, if t hat makes a difference. Another thing to note is that this is the first time im using the ep2500, and havent tested it on other speakers yet. As of now im going to try and find another driver thats not dual coil that i can test to see if that plays fine when connected to the ep2500.
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post #182 of 286 Old 11-22-2008, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zyren View Post


I g
As for LFE, i think i set the receiver up properly, but im not sure. In the speaker setup i turned the sub on and set it to "LFE + main". .

check this thread...you might try the solution here....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=999729

Tim
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post #183 of 286 Old 11-22-2008, 12:07 PM
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ok guys. i found out one of hte problems. i am a total idiot. When i had it hooked up "parallel" i had the pos and neg of the amp going to the pos and neg of one voice coil, and then hooking the other voice coil up pos to pos and neg to neg from the first voice coil. When i switched them to the diagram linked by fatawan, the kick looked exactly the same with an AA battery, so i assumed it was the same wiring. Well i tried playing a song and it was MUCH louder than before, almost what it should sound like. So all you guys saying it was the polarity are right.

Anyway, its working now, but there is still one issue. its most likely a settings issue i need to figure out, but the sub just doesnt sound as loud as it should be (i know, i know, im getting greedy arent i?). While the sub is loud, it only really sounds as loud as my z-5500s sub which is rated at 180w. I am basing the comparison when i have my receiver set to -2.5db, playing a music video from xbox live and having one channel of the ep2500 set to max volume (the clip light comes on at max but turns off if i put the volume a bit lower). Maybe i just dont think it sounds loud because im used to the boomy sound of the z-5500s?

EDIT: i put a kill-a-watt to the ep2500 at the settings i jsut mentioned (except -0.5db instead of -2.5db) from the receiver and the highest reading i saw was 403w. Shouldnt i be getting close to 800-1000w with a 3ohm driver setup?
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post #184 of 286 Old 11-22-2008, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zyren View Post

ok guys. i found out one of hte problems. i am a total idiot. When i had it hooked up "parallel" i had the pos and neg of the amp going to the pos and neg of one voice coil, and then hooking the other voice coil up pos to pos and neg to neg from the first voice coil. When i switched them to the diagram linked by fatawan, the kick looked exactly the same with an AA battery, so i assumed it was the same wiring. Well i tried playing a song and it was MUCH louder than before, almost what it should sound like. So all you guys saying it was the polarity are right.

Anyway, its working now, but there is still one issue. its most likely a settings issue i need to figure out, but the sub just doesnt sound as loud as it should be (i know, i know, im getting greedy arent i?). While the sub is loud, it only really sounds as loud as my z-5500s sub which is rated at 180w. I am basing the comparison when i have my receiver set to -2.5db, playing a music video from xbox live and having one channel of the ep2500 set to max volume (the clip light comes on at max but turns off if i put the volume a bit lower). Maybe i just dont think it sounds loud because im used to the boomy sound of the z-5500s?

EDIT: i put a kill-a-watt to the ep2500 at the settings i jsut mentioned (except -0.5db instead of -2.5db) from the receiver and the highest reading i saw was 403w. Shouldnt i be getting close to 800-1000w with a 3ohm driver setup?

did you check my link, and switch your bass management settings to "small" and "LFE only". you don't want the bass to be split between the LFE and mains.

Tim
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post #185 of 286 Old 11-22-2008, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Zyren,
ya noob, J/K glad you found your mistake. So what speakers are you trying to match this sub to? There are lots of other things to consider in your setup, placement, crossover settings, do you have any room treatments?

Quite a lot of stuff to fiddle with actually. So much in fact, I think this should have it's own thread. I've asked a mod to split this conversation out into it's own thread.

Regards,
Dan
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post #186 of 286 Old 11-22-2008, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

did you check my link, and switch your bass management settings to "small" and "LFE only". you don't want the bass to be split between the LFE and mains.

Sorry, i forgot to mention i switched these settings. they seemed to have worked, but for some reason i never checked the output after i did this, so i didnt realize this fixed the issue. I am now getting full output wattage from the ep2500. However, the clip light seems to be turning on when achieving around 800w, and not getting any louder. Dunno why that is happening.

@NEO Dan. Sorry, i didn't mean to hijack this thread. i just figured this would be the best place to post my question, and it kind of spiraled. I wouldn't mind at all if a mod would split this into a separate thread. I greatly appreciate the work you've put into this thread and i probably wouldn't have started making this DIY sub if i hadnt seen this thread, and wouldnt want the topic shifting into why my sub isnt working.

As of now i just have the polk audio rm10 5 speaker set. I am currently living in a college campus apartment, so i havent done any room treatments. I am going to be moving into my own place in the summer once i graduate, so i probably wont think about doing any of that until then.

To try to get back on topic...my cabinet's build, shall we say, is not the most "professional" unlike all of your builds. Due to lack of equipment and relying on home depot to cut the large pieces of MDF, i had to improvise a slight bit in order to get the cabinet built. The sides arent completely flat, so a couple pieces of MDF stick out a little bit. This is purely cosmetic though, and have made sure the box is completely sealed except for the port hole. I havent painted the cabinet yet, but plan on it in the future. However, i want the end result to look pretty professional. I was thinking of putting plaster in the gaps where there should be a right angle corner to make up for the imperfections in the MDF cuts, and then put vinyl over it and paint the vinyl. However, im not sure if putting plaster on is a good idea.
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post #187 of 286 Old 11-22-2008, 08:37 PM
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Plaster = water = bad for MDF....

There are other fillers you can use on MDF. As far as paint goes, you can paint it with all sorts of different materials. Enamels, polyurethanes, lacquers etc.

I doubt that wrapping it in vinyl will make painting any better.

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post #188 of 286 Old 11-23-2008, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Zyren,
Michael has a good point. You ought to stay away from the plaster/spackling compound, go with wood filler or bondo. Good old interior wall paint is easy to get good results with, but I would seal/prime the box first before the wall paint.

Regards,
Dan
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post #189 of 286 Old 11-23-2008, 04:27 PM
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Zinser BIN is about the ultimate product to seal up the MDF before painting. It's shellac based, and a result works as a universal binder. Two coats of that stuff and the MDF will be sealed for life.
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post #190 of 286 Old 11-24-2008, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

UPDATE:
I have come up with a slightly larger design that features larger ports with an aggregate area >8"Id. The volume is also up around 6.375'³ the tuning should come in around 12Hz.
You will need a 1.25" round-over for the port bends and opening, it's available at MLCS.
Don't forget the 4-$2.50 pillows from Wal-Mart
The Shiva-X on a filter modded(easy to do) PE BASH 500 would be provide amazing deep bass response in this box.

(pics removed)

Raw response, no SSF or room gain added.
As you can see there is ~2dB more output on the low end vs the old design.
The response with the Maelstrom-X will still tend to be a bit lean in most rooms, but it has all the usable extension and articulation you could ever hope for. The system group delay factor (Sum of (GDxHz) is below 250 down to 15Hz.

The drawings in this post are the complete drawings usable for building with the Maelstrom-X?

Also, what do you mean by "The response with the Maelstrom-X will still tend to be a bit lean in most rooms, but it has all the usable extension and articulation you could ever hope for.", am I right to interpret that as more movie bass instead of music kick-punch? I still haven't considered what box I'm going to pair my Maelstrom+EP2500 with (70/30 music/film).


Shiva-X, 2x Tempest-X, 2x Maelstrom-X2, MiniDSP etc

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post #191 of 286 Old 11-24-2008, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fackamato View Post

The drawings in this post are the complete drawings usable for building with the Maelstrom-X?

Also, what do you mean by "The response with the Maelstrom-X will still tend to be a bit lean in most rooms, but it has all the usable extension and articulation you could ever hope for.", am I right to interpret that as more movie bass instead of music kick-punch? I still haven't considered what box I'm going to pair my Maelstrom+EP2500 with (70/30 music/film).

It's just the opposite really, awesome with music. It's stronger than a sealed box in the low end, but not super strong like the big LLT designs that people complain about not having enough punch. I think that in my case this is because I can crossover higher(160 Hz) than normal because they are up front with my mains.

Regards,
Dan
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post #192 of 286 Old 11-26-2008, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

It's just the opposite really, awesome with music. It's stronger than a sealed box in the low end, but not super strong like the big LLT designs that people complain about not having enough punch. I think that in my case this is because I can crossover higher(160 Hz) than normal because they are up front with my mains.

Great! I can't wait to start building this monster. Any estimation on the weight?


Shiva-X, 2x Tempest-X, 2x Maelstrom-X2, MiniDSP etc

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post #193 of 286 Old 11-26-2008, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I know it's over 100 lbs

Regards,
Dan
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post #194 of 286 Old 11-28-2008, 03:28 PM
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I had some time on the CNC machine today so i was able to cut the inner and outer baffles plus the internal brace's.

As for weight i would say closer to 150lbs plus the driver....i used all of one sheet and most of the second sheet.

Hopefully I will have some pictures this weekend...at least of some glue-ups.

Tim
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post #195 of 286 Old 11-28-2008, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

I had some time on the CNC machine today so i was able to cut the inner and outer baffles plus the internal brace's.

As for weight i would say closer to 150lbs plus the driver....i used all of one sheet and most of the second sheet.

Hopefully I will have some pictures this weekend...at least of some glue-ups.

That's awseome, I wish I had access to CNC. Don't forget the roundovers in the ports.

Regards,
Dan
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post #196 of 286 Old 11-28-2008, 04:51 PM
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zyren use body filler for autos, bondo works great.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #197 of 286 Old 11-28-2008, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

That's awseome, I wish I had access to CNC. Don't forget the roundovers in the ports.

I have one where i work..nothing too fancy, but using composer and art path i was able to cut out not only the circles for the drivers, but the port opening and even able to round it over. Took about an hour and no mdf dust

Tomorrow I will glue up the ports and then round over by hand...i thought about maybe trying to use the CNC, but i didn't have that much time.

I bet in a couple more years you will be able to buy a home CNC for under $700...the trouble is i paid $900 just for the software

Tim
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post #198 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 05:18 AM
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Dan,

I ran into a slight issue on the cut list...

1. adding up the overall height of the subwoofer ( you say 25") I get 24/5"

18.5 is the height of the interior port frame...plus 1.5" for the top and bottom plate plus 4.5" for the 2 braces.

This is not a huge issue....i don't think, as i can cut 1/2" off the top 5 outer panels. Cutting the braces taller will require more work because i have already cut the opening to the port at 2.25.

2. The length would be off too...33" plus 2.25" plus 1.5" would be 36 3/4.

So it seems the braces should not be 2.25 high, but they should be 2.5" high...

I think i should recut the braces and extend the height of the port opening to 2.5"

Is this correct Dan? I think I can do most of that here today, and just bring the front panel back to the cnc tomorrow.

EDIT#17:

Another solution might be to skin the top and rear of the internal port configuration to 19" tall and 33.25 deep so as to keep the original port opening at 2.25???

Tim
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post #199 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

So it seems the braces should not be 2.25 high, but they should be 2.5" high...

I think i should recut the braces and extend the height of the port opening to 2.5"

Is this correct Dan? I think I can do most of that here today, and just bring the front panel back to the cnc tomorrow.

WOW, just shoot me

thundrSQ,
you are correct 2.5" is what it should be, my sincerest apologizes. I have corrected the cut-sheet and uploaded the images, you may have to refresh the page.

Regards,
Dan
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post #200 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 10:07 AM
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So http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post13613858 has all the correct dimensions etc now?

(just to be sure!)


Shiva-X, 2x Tempest-X, 2x Maelstrom-X2, MiniDSP etc

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post #201 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

WOW, just shoot me

thundrSQ,
you are correct 2.5" is what it should be, my sincerest apologizes. I have corrected the cut-sheet and uploaded the images, you may have to refresh the page.

No worries....i already recut the braces to 2.5" I was just waiting on you to confirm.

Tim
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post #202 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fackamato View Post

So http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post13613858 has all the correct dimensions etc now?

(just to be sure!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

No worries....i already recut the braces to 2.5" I was just waiting on you to confirm.

I think I'm loosing my mind here. I see another problem. The Sides on the second cut-sheet should be 23.5" tall. I've updated the drawings.

Regards,
Dan
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post #203 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

I think I'm loosing my mind here. I see another problem. The Sides on the second cut-sheet should be 23.5" tall. I've updated the drawings.

I don't think so dan....and i can go downstairds to be sure...but that is not a side panel on the second cut sheet...it is actually part of the internal port...so if i am thinking clearly it needs to stay at 22.5 wide

so to confirm P3 stays at 22.5...add 1.5" of the side panels to make 24" which is the width of my subwoofer.

Tim
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post #204 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 10:42 AM
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I'm going to set up my router table for the roundover cuts while Dan finishes his coffee

Tim
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post #205 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

I don't think so dan....and i can go downstairds to be sure...but that is not a side panel on the second cut sheet...it is actually part of the internal port...so if i am thinking clearly it needs to stay at 22.5 wide

so to confirm P3 stays at 22.5...add 1.5" of the side panels to make 24" which is the width of my subwoofer.

Your right, I'm spazing out. I'll put it back.

Regards,
Dan
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post #206 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 10:58 AM
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I love it when a plan comes together

Router table already had the correct bit in it and that part took 2 minutes to complete....onto more glue ups

Heres a hint for those who are doing this...clean up your squeeze out before it dries on the edges that will go against the router fence...i did not and i had to scrape the sides prior to cutting the roundovers...just a time saver.


thanks dan!!!!!

Tim
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post #207 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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My poor brain is scattered in ten different directions, but you've had me looking at the cut sheets for so long now I think I see a way to pick up some airspace using a different layout. I'm not normally like this, but yesterday I really put some miles on at the gym and I'm not exactly feeling the greatest.

Regards,
Dan
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post #208 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

My poor brain is scattered in ten different directions, but you've had me looking at the cut sheets for so long now I think I see a way to pick up some airspace using a different layout. I'm not normally like this, but yesterday I really put some miles on at the gym and I'm not exactly feeling the greatest.

can you wait till AFTER i finish before posting a new and improved version?

Tim
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post #209 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 01:18 PM
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tundrSQ: What bits are you using? I know the 1.25 or 1.5 for round over, but what about the openings in the baffles? I just cut the inner pieces and want to know what to buy. Thanks
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post #210 of 286 Old 11-30-2008, 01:38 PM
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Inner baffles i cut on a cnc with a straight cut bit and then just knocked the edges off with a 1/4" round over bit. I don't even think you have to do that step...

to round off the bends i used a 1.5" round over bit because i happened to have it in my router at the time...i bought it from mcls on sale last year for $30 bucks. Too bad you weren't closer you could come over and use my table, i just did it 2 hours ago./...still set up.

I am in glue up mode now...things are going amazing well...knock on MDF>

Tim
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