Bedlam in Goliath: RE Audio XXX18 subwoofer build - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 327 Old 06-26-2008, 01:51 PM
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Zjason, Pioneer receivers are known to have very low voltage outputs, several people here and all over the internet have run into this problem, so much that they have entire threads dedicated to solving and modifying devices like the ART cleanbox in order to get the most from their amps. Just last night I ran into this very problem, though I hadn't previously. I was outputting from my oppo DVD player using the 8 channel out (it is made to be used like this as it has a volume control and full calibration for each channel such as distance, level, ect.) and I could not get nearly enough juice into my EP2500, the speakers were doing fine, but the sub amp was clearly not getting enough voltage, I had max volume (or min attenuation, however you want to look at it) on everything and the sub just wasn't doing much. My plate amp sub had to be turned down considerably though when driven from the same source. All other sources I have used don't have a problem driving pro amps, but this one clearly did.
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post #92 of 327 Old 06-26-2008, 02:34 PM
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BFD put into the loop also removed the hum from my RL-P18.

"The choices we make define our lives, because choice, not chance, determines destiny"

They call me the 18 year old DJ Audiophile-upgradeitis infected-guy!
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post #93 of 327 Old 06-26-2008, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Zjason, Pioneer receivers are known to have very low voltage outputs, several people here and all over the internet have run into this problem, so much that they have entire threads dedicated to solving and modifying devices like the ART cleanbox in order to get the most from their amps. Just last night I ran into this very problem, though I hadn't previously. I was outputting from my oppo DVD player using the 8 channel out (it is made to be used like this as it has a volume control and full calibration for each channel such as distance, level, ect.) and I could not get nearly enough juice into my EP2500, the speakers were doing fine, but the sub amp was clearly not getting enough voltage, I had max volume (or min attenuation, however you want to look at it) on everything and the sub just wasn't doing much. My plate amp sub had to be turned down considerably though when driven from the same source. All other sources I have used don't have a problem driving pro amps, but this one clearly did.

Army: Could you reference a specific model Pioneer and what is the Pioneer's specification for voltage output from the pre-outs and LFE?
On the thread about the QSC PLX-3402 fan mod you made this comment in response to Penn and his crazy voltage issue:
You seem to be one of the only people with those issues, most of us are fine, I have used 4 receivers and more computers than I can count on several different pro amps from EP2500's to PLX series and never had a problem once before, amps seem to clip well before maximum gain is reached.

So you have proven your four receivers don't have voltage problems. How is your Oppo through your receiver now the receivers voltage problem?


I am not arguing the fact that people have problems, I am arguing the fact that most receivers cannot output enough voltage, that is simply not true.

Now whether the receiver IS outputting enough voltage is a completely different argument.

I tried to explain to Penn that running efficient speakers (mains, center, surround) say 89 db and inefficient subs, can result in an imbalanced system and require a boost, but not because the receiver can't output enough volts. It is a result of that specific setup is not allowing it.

Feeding even 10 watts to an 89db speaker will result in about 95db of SPL in a small room. At this setting on my AVR volume control, my sub output may be only 10%.

If my pre-out is only rated for 2V, I might only get 0.2 V input to the amp.
Still, 0.2/1.25 = 16% of rated amplifer output. For an EP2500, that would be about 100 watts (16% of 650) and will depend on your sub if that is enough. If I am rated for 4V as most are, I would get only 200 watts and 32%.
Is that enough to get 95db from your sub - I do not know, it depends.

In this case, the speakers are increasing in volume much faster than the sub and you run out of room to increase the sub to where it needs to be.
You can prove this easily by disconnecting the speakers and leave only the sub and turn your receiver volume up all the way to 0 db. Does the sub keep getting louder?

Options - cut 10 db from LCR and surrounds, boost sub by 10db so you can raise the volume level and hence the output voltage.

OR use the cleanbox / level shifters to achieve balance between sub and other speakers.
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post #94 of 327 Old 06-26-2008, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zjason View Post

Army: Could you reference a specific model Pioneer and what is the Pioneer's specification for voltage output from the pre-outs and LFE?

No I can't, I have never owned one, I do know that every time someone has had an issue that I can remember, it has been with a pioneer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zjason View Post

On the thread about the QSC PLX-3402 fan mod you made this comment in response to Penn and his crazy voltage issue:
You seem to be one of the only people with those issues, most of us are fine, I have used 4 receivers and more computers than I can count on several different pro amps from EP2500's to PLX series and never had a problem once before, amps seem to clip well before maximum gain is reached.

So you have proven your four receivers don't have voltage problems. How is your Oppo through your receiver now the receivers voltage problem?

Quite simple, the other times I was relying on the receivers for decoding the signal, this time I used the oppo. Since the oppo has full volume control and signal processing, this is a viable option, you can run without a receiver and just amplifiers if you wish. When my receivers were decoding the signal, it was up to them to give enough pre amp voltage, with the oppo doing it, its up to the dvd player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zjason View Post

I am not arguing the fact that people have problems, I am arguing the fact that most receivers cannot output enough voltage, that is simply not true.

Yes, I have had the same argument with Penn, however, for those that it does affect, its pretty important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zjason View Post

Now whether the receiver IS outputting enough voltage is a completely different argument.

I tried to explain to Penn that running efficient speakers (mains, center, surround) say 89 db and inefficient subs, can result in an imbalanced system and require a boost, but not because the receiver can't output enough volts. It is a result of that specific setup is not allowing it.

Feeding even 10 watts to an 89db speaker will result in about 95db of SPL in a small room. At this setting on my AVR volume control, my sub output may be only 10%.

If my pre-out is only rated for 2V, I might only get 0.2 V input to the amp.
Still, 0.2/1.25 = 16% of rated amplifer output. For an EP2500, that would be about 100 watts (16% of 650) and will depend on your sub if that is enough. If I am rated for 4V as most are, I would get only 200 watts and 32%.
Is that enough to get 95db from your sub - I do not know, it depends.

In this case, the speakers are increasing in volume much faster than the sub and you run out of room to increase the sub to where it needs to be.
You can prove this easily by disconnecting the speakers and leave only the sub and turn your receiver volume up all the way to 0 db. Does the sub keep getting louder?

Options - cut 10 db from LCR and surrounds, boost sub by 10db so you can raise the volume level and hence the output voltage.

OR use the cleanbox / level shifters to achieve balance between sub and other speakers.

Sorry, I am not really seeing the need for all this babble
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post #95 of 327 Old 06-26-2008, 07:06 PM
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Quote:


I tried to explain to Penn that running efficient speakers (mains, center, surround) say 89 db and inefficient subs, can result in an imbalanced system and require a boost, but not because the receiver can't output enough volts. It is a result of that specific setup is not allowing it.

You actually posted one line in this thread calling what I posted simply BS. That BS is my solution, whether you like it or not. You can split hairs, twist the topic, it doesnt matter because the original problem is simply input sensitivity difference and this forum, IB Cult forum, HomeTheaterShack forum ALL have threads about it and how to deal with the problem.

In the end the OP doesnt care, he has his problem solved. I dont care, I know all available solutions so why does this need to go on with you? I posted a long time ago for you to LEAVE IT ALONE are you dumb enough not to understand that?

I simply have zero tolerance for any of your BS, you have limited posts, I dont think I have seen even a build thread from you and I haven't really READ how you help anyone so if you are not HELPING PLEASE LEAVE.

I simply posted to help the OP, you did nothing but insult!

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post #96 of 327 Old 06-26-2008, 08:13 PM
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Penn,

Still waiting for you to post up some receiver specifications showing the pre-amp or LFE output voltages <<1 volt


Keep dancing away from this issue...and completely ignore the fact that OP's Outlaw can output 6 volts - I posted the link to the manual.

Show us the depth of your knowledge, all 4900+ posts and prove me wrong with a list of all the major AVR manufacturer's pre-outs rated << 1 volt.

How about the Outlaw line of amplifiers? - let's see, input sensitivities of 1.0 volt.

How about Emotiva?
input sensitivities of 1.5 volts.

Hmmm ... must be causing havoc with all the customers

Even army dissed you on the QSC thread for whining about your voltage issue and for some strange reason is pulling a flip-flop trying in vain to defend you.

How about one of you geniuses actually pull out a multi-meter and measure your actual voltage output at different volume levels of your AVR?


Penn: I simply posted you were full of crap in claiming most commercial AVR's only put out 0.775 volts.
I stand by that statement 100% and you have failed to show even 1 receiver with those specifications. You are simply all bark and no bite and you look like a complete idiot by continuing to make those claims.
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post #97 of 327 Old 06-26-2008, 09:05 PM
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Zjason, I came on here because you sought to personally attack Penn and discredit him. He will be the first to tell you that we have bantered quite a bit on other threads, however, your attitude towards him was something that I do not wish to see on these boards so I simply posted a little info and my own experience to verify some of what he was saying. If you are correct in that the OP's outlaw pre amp can do 6 volts, then that should be more than enough to satisfy his pro amp. However, for whatever reason, it is not, so the solution that Penn provided was to use a modified cleanbox in line to boost the bass signal. This is a viable option and I see reason to rant on him as you have done.

Yes, he does seem to push the input sensitivity issue a lot more than typically seems necessary. As you've noticed, I've addressed his comments on this already and see no reason to push my thoughts further.

Have a good day, I hope we can learn from this to make this place more helpful.
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post #98 of 327 Old 06-26-2008, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to reiterate. I am not using any of the available gain on the Rane. I put it in the system to SEE if boosting the levels before the amp might allow me to turn down the level at the amp and thus possibly reduce the hum. It was not used to boost the incoming or out going signal in the end though. It is still set to flat. What it did do was knock the hum way down in level, so that I could dial back the subwoofer level to 0 and run the channel level on the amp wide open without it going BzzzzZZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzz.

Also the Outlaw may be capable of 6volts output at the maximum, but we don't normally run our gear that hot. Things need to have some headroom. I can see how a reciever/pre-pro that maxes out at 3volts, or so, matched to a pro amp without the selectable input levels that the CE4000 has, could be an issue.
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post #99 of 327 Old 06-26-2008, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Back to the topic at hand...
I finally replaced my USB cable for my Olmypus and got time to post up some pics, so without further adeiu...

Here's the crate with love from Canada...





Here's some shots taken during the dismantling of the crate. The packaging was first rate.










Here's a shot right after we got both of the subs into the house that illustrates the size and girth of the XXX subwoofer cab. I'm the darkly tanned guy on the left!






Here's a shot of the SDX sub shot during one of many recuperation periods. As you can see it's no lightweight mini-sub either!





More pics will follow tomorrow.
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post #100 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Zjason, I came on here because you sought to personally attack Penn and discredit him. He will be the first to tell you that we have bantered quite a bit on other threads, however, your attitude towards him was something that I do not wish to see on these boards so I simply posted a little info and my own experience to verify some of what he was saying. If you are correct in that the OP's outlaw pre amp can do 6 volts, then that should be more than enough to satisfy his pro amp. However, for whatever reason, it is not, so the solution that Penn provided was to use a modified cleanbox in line to boost the bass signal. This is a viable option and I see reason to rant on him as you have done.

Yes, he does seem to push the input sensitivity issue a lot more than typically seems necessary. As you've noticed, I've addressed his comments on this already and see no reason to push my thoughts further.

Have a good day, I hope we can learn from this to make this place more helpful.


Army - You know it, I know it and everyone else on the board knows it (except PENN).

A statement like: MOST commercial AVR's can only output 0.775 volts is pure and utter nonsense. It was wrong the first time he said it way back when and it is still wrong today. To offer this advice continually is irresponsible and shows a complete lack of knowledge and understanding.

I point out the error of that statement (again) and Penn goes on the attack about my lack of knowledge, my lack of posts and my lack of builds, and I offer nothing to discussion, yet offers no facts or evidence to the contrary....and I am the bad guy???? Give me a break.

So much for having meaniful discussions on this forum. Why are you not critical of Penn for making incorrect statements and continuing to offer bad advice despite being told to the contrary many many times. How about criticizing him for his childish response and mudslinging without offering up any hard facts or evidence to prove his point?

You should be ashamed of yourself army.

I sought to discredit him? Huh? He chose to discredit himself. I even sent Penn a PM to clear this up offline and he continued to insult me despite being given evidence to the contrary of his belief.


For OP'
I apologize for hijacking your thread, but I tried to offer some advice for your HUM issue and correct the inaccurate advice that Penn gave you trying to blame your Outlaw for not being capable to produce enough voltage.
That is simply not true for your AVR and MOST if not all of today's AVR's equipped with pre-outs.

I have never denied the need for a cleanbox or level shifter - but not because an AVR is only capable of 0.775 volts.
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post #101 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 05:00 AM
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Jason, stop freaking hijacking the thread.

Quote:


To offer this advice continually is irresponsible and shows a complete lack of knowledge and understanding.

No, its only offered to those who might have the problem, DAMN DUDE, get a life!!


Its a dead issue, I dont need to dance around anything it has been discussed and solved. My knowledge is none of your business, I just know which amps work with my equipment ( I have lots of equipment to experiment with) and I have lots of expert support on this so I dont need any troll calling names and being an ass, etc especially an unknown member, with very few posts and nothing to show what he owns, what he has done, who he is. You want any respect lets see what and who you are IN ANOTHER THREAD. Give us your equipment Mr bigshot, you better have built something, owned something and so on or you are just a troll and a punk to me and you are just a joke (like you have been). Yes, what you own and what you have done goes a long way in my books. Opinion is nothing without substance and ownership!

Quote:


How about criticizing him for his childish response and mudslinging without offering up any hard facts or evidence to prove his point?

You are the troll, Im a very active member with lots of purchases, builds, DIY projects and so on, I also dont let trolls get away with crap, you come at me I have no problem throwing it back at you so before you post again....PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!

Atleast stop hijacking this thread you troll!!!

btw, sorry Ricci!!

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post #102 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 05:35 AM
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You could frame a two story doghouse for pooch with the leftover packing materials!
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post #103 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 06:08 AM
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Small RE XXX sub,you need a larger box for it.

You could have used eight 15's in sealed cabinets in this space...



Now that is a subwoofer.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #104 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 06:31 AM
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Why is it so hard for you Penn to admit you are wrong?

You claimed that most AVR's are only capable of 0.775 volts - I simply ask you to step up to the plate and prove it. Show me the specification sheets of all these commercial receivers that can only output in the millivolt range from their pre-outs.

If you could, you would have done so by now and shown how wrong I am.

Instead you continue to respond with more verbal diarreah and insults despite the fact I have shown you evidence to the contrary that AVR's, especially the Outlaw in question here do NOT have voltage output limitations.

That's the trademark of a knowledgeable member with almost 5000 posts I guess. How many of those posts have been thoughtful, factual and knowledgeable advice? How many are not even worth reading? How many are questions because you DON'T know what you are doing and need help?

You just keep making yourself look more and more foolish the more you carry on.

If you want respect, simply admit your mistake in saying that most AVR's only can output <<1 volt and move on to the fact that there are OTHER reasons why people are using line shifters.

I already posted the link to the Outlaw manual that clearly shows pre-outs rated for 6 volts.
Here is the link to my lowly Yamaha RX-V659 manual:
http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Receivers/Manuals/RXV659.jsp
Check out page 121 showing pre-outs at 2 volts and sub at 4 volts.

Here is another link to Yamaha's online documentation:
http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Manuals.jsp#...g?from=support
Find me one model that can only output 0.775 volts.

Where did you get that number anyway? Make it up?


Also, I do not see even one single member stepping up to say:
"Yes - Penn is correct, most commercial AVR's are only rated for output of 0.775 volts"

On the flipside, many other members have told you repeatedly that is not true, but trying to explain this to you is like talking to a brick wall.
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post #105 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 06:45 AM
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Zjason (and Penn),

could you two please take this sh!t elsewhere?! How many more threads are we gonna hear this same debate back and forth? This thread is Ricci's and about the XXX sub, not about you.

respectfully, I ask that you start a thread and have at it, or settle it on PM.
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post #106 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 06:47 AM
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DUDE!!!

have some respect for the OP. I said its DEAD, how can we beat some sense into you on this??


If you have a hard on, create a thread and talk to yourself. The issue exists and you are just arguing semantics on how it was worded. I have posted the following valid statement for this issue.....Input sensitivity is different on pro amps vs AVRs or PRE/PROs and therefore CAN cause output issues I can post the SAME quotes from guys like ThomasW, BruceK and many others so Im just repost what I was told and how I SOLVED MY PROBLEM.


NOW please DO NOT POST AGAIN on this issue.

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post #107 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 06:49 AM
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Sherv, I said that too him!! I know I should just ignore him. Sorry about that.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #108 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys I like a good argument as much as the next guy but I'd rather not have my thread "Munson'd" by multiple pages of personal conflict regarding something that I totally don't give 2 shits about and has already been covered before anyway. Please take it elsewhere, or better yet cease and desist altogether. .

Thanks Sherv.

Arthur,
You are right 8 -12's or 6 15's sealed, or something that made sense could've been done in the same space, but what would be the fun in that. That would've been entirely too practical. Besides I wanted to use this driver and the powerport has always intrigued me. Plus I wanted to see how much damage you can do with the XXX if you throw caution out the window.
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post #109 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 08:40 AM
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a good rule to follow: challenge the post: never the poster

personal attacks are not allowed

Please take the high road in every post
Please do not quote or respond to problematic posts: report them to mods to handle
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post #110 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 08:43 AM
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Sorry for any insults!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #111 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some more pics...pay no attention to all the clutter and wires snaking everywhere. Gotta clean all that up later.


Here's a few views from down under showing the powerport flow guide and the Speakon placement.








Here's a shot straight up the pipe. You can kinda make out the internal flow guide way up there.This is one big ass port.



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post #112 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post


Arthur,
You are right 8 -12's or 6 15's sealed, or something that made sense could've been done in the same space, but what would be the fun in that. That would've been entirely too practical. Besides I wanted to use this driver and the powerport has always intrigued me. Plus I wanted to see how much damage you can do with the XXX if you throw caution out the window.

I was a bit sarcastic,I know very well the attraction of a KING EBS sub like yours. One driver capable of prodigious output down to single digits in room,even GP this unit beats any commercial sub(non fan based) with ease(down deep).

That is one gorgeous sub.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #113 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Got the sub put in place finally. It fit like a glove back in the recess. Here's some pictures of the final resting spot. My preliminary conclusions based upon initial impressions is .



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post #114 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 07:26 PM
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Wow that is insane. Imagine waking up to that lol
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post #115 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 08:19 PM
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So....is this like a bedroom HT?
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post #116 of 327 Old 06-27-2008, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

So....is this like a bedroom HT?

Hard to quite place it - Green lighted newel with the blue stairs, zebra print covers and Batman pillow on the DIY Craftmatic Adjustable Bed, flanked by a print of the Taj Mahal, mirror on the wall, projector above it, fish mounted on the wall (not the singing one, is it?), Ricci's got his shirt off... and some pounding bass.

Sounds like the making of a kinky home movie set?
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post #117 of 327 Old 06-28-2008, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubbie View Post

Hard to quite place it - Green lighted newel with the blue stairs, zebra print covers and Batman pillow on the DIY Craftmatic Adjustable Bed, flanked by a print of the Taj Mahal, mirror on the wall, projector above it, fish mounted on the wall (not the singing one, is it?), Ricci's got his shirt off... and some pounding bass.

Sounds like the making of a kinky home movie set?

Kubbie,
PM sent. We are always on the look out for talent.. JK! But seriously though it pays well and it's fun.


It's not a bedroom though, it's a living room/dance floor/lounge/HT. that's actually a DIY chase lounge. We didn't think it was wide enough sometimes.I am in no way shape or form involved with the interior decorating at all. That's the trade off for getting to put speakers and giant subwoofers everywhere and I keep my mouth shut.
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post #118 of 327 Old 06-28-2008, 07:11 AM
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Hey Ricci,

We're overdue for some feedback on this brute! I've been curious of this driver for a while; this build may nudge me a step closure to throwing down the $$$...

Larry
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post #119 of 327 Old 06-28-2008, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Kubbie,
PM sent. We are always on the look out for talent.. JK! But seriously though it pays well and it's fun.

L...O...L...!!!!!
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post #120 of 327 Old 06-28-2008, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Lennon_68,
The biz is no joke. It's not all fun and games out there. Until you've experienced the sounds, the people and cameras all around you, the sweat,the body fluids and most importantly the smells, you don't really realize how much work it is. Its' a job. Sometimes I dream of the smells...
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