What 12" driver for a small sealed enclosure? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 07-29-2008, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm designed a new Music/HT room. It's about 12x14, or approximately 1400 cubic feet..

I was going to buy power sub, but I'm thinking about building TWO in-wall/on-wall subwoofers. I have about nine inches of depth to work with. I would recess them into the screen wall (4" recessed), and allow the rest to protrude in the room. They would be firmly attached to the concrete block wall behind the 2x4 framing.... They would be positioned below and somewhat outside of the screen on the screenwall (very near the front corners of the room).

BUT, the enclosures need to be very small, perhaps one cubic foot at best.. (smaller if possible). Outside dims of 14.5"x 9"x?? for the boxes... (to fit between studs).

Any thoughts? Any driver recommendations?

I'm willing to buy as large an amp as I need. The EP2500/1500 looks to be popular for subs...

Thanks.
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post #2 of 21 Old 07-29-2008, 09:07 PM
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That is tiny. There any way to get a bit more space?
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post #3 of 21 Old 07-29-2008, 09:10 PM
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post #4 of 21 Old 07-29-2008, 11:21 PM
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I'm curious way you insist on limiting the cabinet size?

Why not just use the full space between the studs - floor to ceiling. Open the wall up from the center line of one stud to the center line of the next, between Mount a fairly large wood panel containing your speaker, Screw it down, and cover with a grill. Bada-Bing-Bada-Boom...in wall speaker.

Or try something like this -

Goldwood GB-100 10" In-Wall Subwoofer @ $117.50 each
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...TOKEN=34716950

You don't really mention your budget, what kind of walls you have, how much construction work you are willing and able to do, so the range is from $100 to $10,000, and we can't tell you much until we know where in that range you are.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #5 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, more details of my project design.

Due to 'family acceptance issues', I need to limit the amount to modifications to the room. The room exists, drywalled, carpeted, etc.... My task is to convert the room into a dedicated Music/HT room.

The room is fairly standard construction: 2x4 framing, 1/2" drywall. The room is entirely below grade, the screenwall and left side framing is against the concrete block foundation. No windows. The room entrance door is on the right side wall, just about six inches from the front wall (hence why I need to limit the depth of the anything on the screen wall).

I'd rather limit the number of holes that I put in the walls.... I'm already planning on Polk LC265i/LCi-C L/C/R speakers. The subs were an interesting addition to the screenwall.

My thought is to save some floorspace, and make an interesting look with the main speakers behind the AT screen, and only seeing the two subs sticking out of the front wall..... I also understand that TWO subs can help with standingwave/nodal issues in the room.

PLUS, I like to build things... building the sub cabinets sounded interesting... and I learn about speaker building.

My proposed cabinets would be about 8-9" deep, about 14" wide, and perhaps 16" high... I cound possible make them taller and extend them up behind the screen a bit. The screen itself will be spaced out from the wall about 4-5". I don't have an easy way to get more depth... But I've thought about height. I'd rather keep them off the floor a bit... I know that there is wiring in the walls about 6" up that I'd like to not disturb,,,, Anyway, you get the idea... I'm trying to build something of quality into the walls, but not tear apart the walls....

It's NOT that I insist on the tiny size, I'm asking if I build something decent in this small size. If the world says that I need at least 2 cubic feet, then I'll change the design a bit...

BUDGET: Perhaps <$200 per driver. ... Construction costs are not an issue, the amp would roll up into the electronics budget and the speaker part of the budget....

Is the JL and ED line of drivers meant for cars???? Are car sub drivers any good for home use???

Thanks.
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post #6 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 06:01 AM
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Quote:


I also understand that TWO subs can help with standingwave/nodal issues in the room.

only if you can move them around to find the best position.

I have build boxes into my HT wall but I was able to go back 4 feet into the wall so I do have 11 cuft boxes still. For the sub to be meaningful you really need atleast 4 cuft or more.

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post #7 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 06:53 AM
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How about making a floor to ceiling 45* area in the corners of the room and put the subs in there as an enclosure... WAF approved, nice and hidden as well as being able to put some real nice drivers in there.
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post #8 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

How about making a floor to ceiling 45* area in the corners of the room and put the subs in there as an enclosure... WAF approved, nice and hidden as well as being able to put some real nice drivers in there.

thats a good way to go about it.
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post #9 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 07:50 AM
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yeah, you could do sealed or ported that way, with plenty of room to spare...
Gives you quite a bit of flexibility..... Figure out what the internal volume would be, then start choosing drivers...

For sealed you obviously wouldn't need then entire space, but you could frame it to look continuous and uniform...
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post #10 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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...I need to get some sketches/photos together...

I don't have the luxury of building 45 degree cabinets in the corners. The entrance door is on the right wall, only a few inches back from the surface of the front (screen) wall.... This is why I'm looking to build the sub enclosures into/onto the wall... I don't think that I could 'negotiate' a significant amount to re-work to the wall/framing.. It took me months of negotiating to permit me to re-paint the (currently) white walls/ceiling something darker....

I'll need to rethink my design. To put the subs in/on the wall, the enclosures need to be 1 to 2 cubic feet (internal) volume. If this won't work, I'll need to purchase a floor standing sub. I thought the two (stereo) subs would be 'better' and perhaps save my some money.... I also like the passive sub architecture where I could keep the amp(s) in my equipment rack. Keep the controls and electronics together..


If anyone has any thoughts, let me know.

Would the Peerless XLS-12 work in a small sealed box? Again, I'm looking for driver suggestions in the <$200 price range.

Thanks.
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post #11 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 09:04 AM
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Quote:


I thought the two (stereo) subs would be 'better' and perhaps save my some money.... I also like the passive sub architecture where I could keep the amp(s) in my equipment rack. Keep the controls and electronics together..


If anyone has any thoughts, let me know.

Would the Peerless XLS-12 work in a small sealed box? Again, I'm looking for driver suggestions in the <$200 price range.


What are your goals? its purely a science thing...to get ouput down low you need to have so much volume. 1 to 2 cubic feet probably wont let you get much below 30Hz.

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post #12 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for any confusion.

My goals are good sound quality, reasonable price, and fitting into my over-constrained room design.

To assist with the price objective, I'm willing/able to design/build enclosures and engineer the overall system.

The in/on wall mount with small enclosures is a concept that I wanted to explore. It's not sounding like a good option. I've read that some people prefer 'stereo' subs for pure music listening. Although it's a Music/HT room, I would rather focus on SQ rather than 'sounds effects'. If I don't get the 'sounds effects' that I need for HT use, I'm toying with a small IB sub, venting into an adjoining closet.....

I see 'car' subs that claim to work with enclosures around my size goal. Yes I know that car and home subs are different...... I see home sub designs that are less than two cubic feet, sealed enclosures. My question is really, what is the smallest enclosure, and what driver would I need???? I'm willing to purchase amp power to give me the low end SPL (within driver limits).

Thanks.

p.s. I am a research engineer/scientist during the day.....
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post #13 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 10:46 AM
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I'd say start with 3 cubic feet as a minimum, and work on that idea. You could develop a "box" that is 'T' shaped, run for the height that you have in mind, and recess that into the 9" depth, but make the face wider and protruding as far as you would like against the face of the wall. The driver could sit in the area that is recessed into the wall, but the volume would be made up in the "legs" of the 'T'. Personally, I think the suggestion above is a better one. Build a box that extends the height of the room and 9" deep, and then just expose the lower 18-24" as a speaker grille. Drywall over the box that extends above this area, and you wouldn't know the difference. You could also extend the bottom a bit wider than your 14" part, and mount a 15" sub to the face.
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post #14 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 12:25 PM
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Sorry, I really have no idea why we are resorting to all these esoteric drivers for something with a 9" mounting depth. Those JL drivers, come on, we aren't trying to cram these into a sports car's trunk with 3" of mounting clearance. If he has 9" why not just go for the dayton reference series woofers, they are 5 3/8" deep, plenty thin to work in this application, you could even make them work with 6" studs if you really wanted to.

You could also use a reference 15" HO, it has a mounting depth of 7" after you give its pole piece some room to vent.
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post #15 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 05:41 PM
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Hey Army-His first post was a bit confusing-looked like 4" depth-the standard depth for a 2x4 wall hence the reco for the JL driver. He didn't state about building them out 5" unitl later. Lighten up dude!
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post #16 of 21 Old 07-30-2008, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Borgoyn View Post

Would the Peerless XLS-12 work in a small sealed box? Again, I'm looking for driver suggestions in the <$200 price range.

Yes, but if you have a fixed box volume you could do a PR system with them, too. That would be an excellent option, IMO.

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post #17 of 21 Old 07-31-2008, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Borgoyn View Post

Sorry for any confusion.

My goals are good sound quality, reasonable price, and fitting into my over-constrained room design.

To assist with the price objective, I'm willing/able to design/build enclosures and engineer the overall system.

The in/on wall mount with small enclosures is a concept that I wanted to explore. It's not sounding like a good option. I've read that some people prefer 'stereo' subs for pure music listening. Although it's a Music/HT room, I would rather focus on SQ rather than 'sounds effects'. If I don't get the 'sounds effects' that I need for HT use, I'm toying with a small IB sub, venting into an adjoining closet.....

I see 'car' subs that claim to work with enclosures around my size goal. Yes I know that car and home subs are different...... I see home sub designs that are less than two cubic feet, sealed enclosures. My question is really, what is the smallest enclosure, and what driver would I need???? I'm willing to purchase amp power to give me the low end SPL (within driver limits).

Thanks.

p.s. I am a research engineer/scientist during the day.....

the two reasons that people say put subs in big boxes are:
1. subs are more efficient (you get more spl) in big boxes
2. too small of a box will cause the Qtc of the system to rise above 1; when this happens the system will start to sound flabby.

if you really want to do it on your own, you must know that subwoofer design is more than just "plop a driver in a box". different drivers behave differently in different boxes. here is an example of jl audio 13w7 in three different boxes, a 1 cu ft, a 2 cu ft, and a 4 cu ft. (horizontal axis is hz, vertical axis is spl) you can see that the smaller the enclosure, the less spl you will have in the bass region. power for these models was set at 1000 watts.

fyi, winisd is a free program that you can use to model your own drivers, but there is a pretty steep learning curve in the beginning. enjoy.


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post #18 of 21 Old 07-31-2008, 09:26 AM
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Fi Q12 or AA Havoc 12. /thread

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post #19 of 21 Old 08-01-2008, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Hey Army-His first post was a bit confusing-looked like 4" depth-the standard depth for a 2x4 wall hence the reco for the JL driver. He didn't state about building them out 5" unitl later. Lighten up dude!

I didn't mean to bash anyone, maybe he edited his first post, but I clearly read that he had a 9" mounting depth. I hadn't seen a single ordinary driver mentioned in this thread yet, when thats really all he needs. Even the ficar Q12 would well, although I'd take a pair of dayton reference drivers over it all day long if he has the wallspace.
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post #20 of 21 Old 08-01-2008, 10:35 AM
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A full height box based on his constraints could be close to 5.5 cubic feet internal volume. All sorts of avenues are available to him with that enclosure.
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post #21 of 21 Old 08-01-2008, 12:44 PM
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I'm being selfish- i wanna see someone other than myself by one of the JLs and see how it performs-OOOPs.
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